Early Hand Ejector Target Sight Tutorial

[opoefc]

Mike, Aren't those torevolvers service sighted 1917s that were taken from inventory at the factory and then S&W put target sights on them to fill the special orders for those two gentlemen? They would, of course, letter as shipped as target guns, but grew up as non-targets? That maybe splitting hairs, but considering all the 1917s S&W had on hand, I can't see them starting from scratch to make a 1917 Target. The forging dies would have long since been retired and they wouldn't tool up for two guns. They would go to the vault and pull out a couple of 1917s and convert them to target models, right?

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Thanks Lee for that EXCELLENT tutorial. I highly value every tidbit of info you offer. You're kinda like E F Hutton, when you speak, I listen. Not to mention that uncanny resembelance to a certain Colonel that will go nameless Thanks.

Also, I have two 1905 4th targets, one early (1917ish) and one later, in the 30's. The early one has two small screws on the rear of the rear sight but the later one has only one. I couldn't find a reference in the Neal and Jinks book. Was that just an engineering change of evolution in that series?

Roger

Roger,
Do you have that backwards??
The two screw sight is the last pre-war variety before the micro-click.

I believe I posted these photos last year in a thread called "A change within a change" or something like that. Pictured left, one screw rear sight #6463XX c. 1930's and pictured right, two screw rear sight #3078XX somewhat earlier but, both 1905 4th. Change serial range. Of course there are several other feature differences, but I thought the rear sight images would help illustrate the comments made by others above.

 

[handejector]

Pictured left, one screw rear sight #6463XX c. 1930's and pictured right, two screw rear sight #3078XX somewhat earlier but, both 1905 4th. Change serial range.

Lefty,
I blew the pic up, and it looks like TWO screws on the LEFT, and ONE on the RIGHT??

What does "Change serial range" mean?

 

[handejector]

Call 'em Tutorials, Lesson, or whatever - I think it's great that on this Forum, old timers like you can come up with threads that provide info. for collectors that they will find no where else. Keep it up, even after they come to take away your crayons!

Ed, Mike, et al-
I do love this forum. The exchange of ideas, data, and PICS that is possible here is truly a wonderful asset for the study of S&W's.
I have learned a lot from both of you, and others, and I thank you all for sharing.
Have to run now- my walker is due for servicing, and it is pudding day here at the Home....

 

[Dan M]

So after reading this thread I get out my 58XXX serial # range Target. Tried taking the little screw out with a jewlers Screw Driver? forget it. any suggestions? what type of Screwdriver do you use.


Dan

 

[handejector]

So after reading this thread I get out my 58XXX serial # range Target. Tried taking the little screw out with a jewlers Screw Driver? forget it. any suggestions? what type of Screwdriver do you use.


Dan

Good question.
I had planned to put a "tech tutorial" on the old sights, but might as well go into it here.

I clamp the barrel in a set of leather vise jaws in a rather high vise. Clamp the gun more or less LEVEL and PLUMB(frame vertical). This allows one to have the screwdriver "square" with the screw just by eyeballing it.

I wear a 5X magnifyer visor.

I have a set of Craftsman jeweler's screwdrivers that I bought at Sears years ago. They are the best set I have ever seen. The shanks are the longest I have seen. They are ground VERY well. The handles, while still rather thin, are plastic, and are longer and thicker than any I have seen. They are not really large enough for a palm grip, but they allow the fingers of both hands a purchase. They have a rotating cap. While pressing the cap with an index finger, I use the thumbs and fingers of both hands to grip. They are not hollow ground, but have served me well.
Generally speaking, hollow ground gunsmithing screwdrivers are not small enough. They can, of course, be ground or filed small enough to work. However, BEAR in MIND that too much torque on these tiny screws is likely to wring it off or pop half the head off.

If the screws don't turn readily, STOP. They varnish up over the years, and get stuck. Squirt a good PENETRATING oil that is BLUE SAFE on them, and walk away. PATIENCE. If angry, frustrated, etc, on any given day, WALK AWAY. NOT a job for a preoccupied man.
Soak them as long as necessary. If one day doesn't do it, keep squirting oil for two or three days. Sometimes they move, then bind again. MORE oil and patience. It may have taken 100 years for them to get THAT stuck- don't expect to cure it in the first minute.
never had one beat me yet.

 

[mikepriwer]

Aren't those two revolvers service sighted 1917s that were taken from inventory at the factory and then S&W put target sights on them to fill the special orders for those two gentlemen?

Ed

How in the world would one ever know that ? As far as I know, and perhaps as far as you know, there
is nothing in any of the records to suggest that this might have occured . I don't think there is
any basis, in fact, for such an assertion.

First of all, the barrel forgings are the same, irregardless of how the front sight is eventually
configured. Target-sighted barrels are simply fixed-sighted barrels with additional milling.

Second, the frame forgings are identical, as well. At some point in the manufacturing process,
different machining operations are performed, depending on whether the frame is to be target or
fixed rear sights. There are known examples of fixed-sighted frames that went back to the factory
for adjustable rear sights; they all seem to have a remanent of the original fixed sight trough.
It was a bit deeper than the cut for a rear-sight assembly.

Third, the first of those two guns was shipped in 1918. And is categorized as a 1917. What could
have possibly expired within one year ?!

I can tell you that neither of these two guns have any remanent of a deeper fixed-sight trough.

I recently acquired what I believe is the first K-32. Its a 4" target K-frame chambered in 32 long,
and roll-marked that way on the barrel. Of course, its letters this way, as well. It was shipped
in Sept, 1910. ( I'm defining K-32 as a target-sighted 32 Long K-frame ). Clearly it was a
special order - but nothing that the factory was not already doing, in bits and pieces, on other
guns. 32 Long was a common chambering , and target sights were readily available.

You are not going to suggest that this not really a K-32, just because it wasn't something that
was cataloged ? Or, at the limit, are you going to suggest that any special-ordered gun is not
really what the factory says it was ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[opoefc]

Mike, I understand where you are coming from on this, and true "how do you know, etc." is a question that's hard to answer. I'm relying on Jink's info regarding 1917s, and that was that all 1917 frames, made in WW1 era, are service sighted types and there was no tooling set up for producing target models, expect for when they got an order for a target model, like yours, they built one using a 1917 military frame from the inventory. If a model was cataloged as being available in either service sighted or target, then a supply of both type frames was available to complete orders, like as seen with the T-Locks, etc. Whether your K32 4" was made from a service sighted gun removed from the vault to complete an order for a target gun, no one knows, unless you could find the work order invoice and track the serial number to see if it was put in the vault from the final assembly as a service sighted gun, then removed to the service dep't to rebuild as a target gun. Sometimes you don't want to know the background of a nice target model. It is what it is. Kind of like the fellow who met a gorgeous gal in a bar, went home with her, had a great night and in the morning notice a picture of a man on the nightstand next to the bed. He asked her who was the man and she said "That was me before my operation" Ed.

 

[handejector]

Honey,
Do we have any popcorn??

 

[mikepriwer]

Ed

Well - for some reason or other, you have a fixation about target guns not really being
target guns.

Apparently you haven't heard that the factory was making target-sighted K-frames in
1910. They were doing that, you know ! I'm perplexed as to why you suggest that , maybe,
this was a fixed-sighted gun to start with. You must have some good reason, but it
eludes me.

I'm glad that I didn't tell the whole story at first, as your reaction is most curious.
The whole story is that the gun is a 32-20, chambered in 32 long. The barrel, of course,
is the same, except for the roll marking. There were several - like a handful - made in
1910, and again a few in 1916. (Actually, I had posted the known serial numbers on the
S&WCA files sections a year or so ago. ) 32-20's and .38 K-frames are identical except
for the caliber, so it would be natural to use the 32-20 series to make up 32 longs.

Clearly there were target 32-20's in 1910, and clearly there were 4" barrels. It's my
guess that they simply chambered the cylinder for 32 long, and presto - a K-32 . I don't
know where the barrel roll-marking came from - maybe from the 32 HE production line.

I also recently, in the last 6 months, acquired a 4" target 32-20, made in late 1909.
The serial number is within about 3000 of the 32 Long gun. Otherwise, these two guns are
identical.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[pace40]

Originally posted by handejector:
Honey,
Do we have any popcorn??

 

[H Richard]

One of the best posts and discussions I remember seeing lately. That's what I love about this forum. You can really learn a lot. Would it be possible to post a sequential history (pictures) of the target sights?

 

[RKmesa]

Lee:

Great photos and wonderful tutorial!!

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by handejector:

Pictured left, one screw rear sight #6463XX c. 1930's and pictured right, two screw rear sight #3078XX somewhat earlier but, both 1905 4th. Change serial range.

Lefty,
I blew the pic up, and it looks like TWO screws on the LEFT, and ONE on the RIGHT??

Lee:

Yeah, I got them misconscrewed.....damn reading glasses.

 

[lonewolf]

I may have posted this a couple of years back, but once a pre war target gun has been fitted with the micrometer click sights, they CAN'T be converted back(unless by a very skilled metal worker).

I have one of the last 50 N frames, a 5" blued, hbh,pre wae magnas, and King front sights(as well as the original). 357 Mag, non registered, made before production closed in 1940-42. It has a serrated sight base, as on a post war gun. I knew the guns' history, as I met with the original owners "kid"-christ he was older than I am!!.

Said his dad, a NH LEO, brought the gun to Springfield, and waited while S&W milled out a proper base for the new micrometer sight, some time in the early 50;s. He hated the tiny screws with heavy loads on the original.

I thought for a minute, that maybe on of the newest sights for the 2nd model .22 might have been factory installed. Unlike original targets sights, with a blued area under the sight, this was left "in the white" after the milling, and I could not screw the pre war sight off my 38/44 Outdoorsman into the "new groove".

So just a liitle tidbit if a seller tries to tell you that the original target rear sight can be "screwed back on" onto a pre war w1th a micro adjustable.

Bud

 

[Allen-frame]

Hi guys ,,just testing this picture of my 1905 4th. change target ser.# 3966xx.

I'm guessing 1921? Hope it comes out.

Regards ,,,Al

 

[Hondo44]

While we're on the subject of these old sights, does anyone know where to get a replacement screw? Specifically, the lock screw from the 'two screw' or late pre-war type sight.
Thx,
Jim

 

[rct269]

SIGHT RETAINING SCREW REMOVAL

The tiny, little screw at the front of the sight tang can be (and usually is) a booger! Lee's advice of repeated applications of penetrating oil (Use Kano Kroil) and patience is certainly sound, but here's a new wrinkle on the old dog.

Step One: Elevate the rear of the sight (as high as possible simplifies the task).

Step Two: Heat the screw and surrounding area with a hair drier set on KILL.

Step Three: Inject the Kroil into the sight channel (under the tang)----and some's good, more's better, and too much is just right. (The Kroil then has DIRECT access to the threads of the screw----without the necessity of finding its way past the head of the screw.) Needless to say, gravity will be on your side if the barrel is depressed.

Step Four: Sit and stare at it for a spell.

Step Five: Repeat as necessary.

Once it's out, make everything squeaky clean (pipe cleaners in the hole). Reassemble with CorrosionX (in the hole/on threads of the screw)---and it'll come right out the next time you want it to.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BlackAgnes]

Lee, et.al.

Do you think that someone in the past got frustrated with the "opposing screw" program and returned this 2nd Model for a postwar sight installation?

There is "865" stamped on the frame under the grips.

Thanks!

 

[Iggy]

What a great and educational thread.. Thanks to all that participated.