1. Who here owns a Kramer Leather holster?

2. Did you actually get it within the promised time frame?

I'm not questioning their quality. I've bought four holsters from them. I'm completely satisfied with the quality but every single one of them came about a month later than they promised.

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Retired Career Security Guard

The Kramer website's FAQ section advises a 14-16 week wait, so considering your past experiences an expectation of 20 weeks would not seem out of order.

I think an overly optmistic estimate of wait times is pretty common among custom holster makers. Just the way it is.

This bugs some potential customers so much they refuse to deal at all with them. Others get testy at times — as I have. Best approach, frankly, is to just fire and forget, and be happy when it does, finally, show up. With a new gun, I will often buy an off-the-shelf holster to tide me over in the meantime.

I will say I had an experience with Kramer wherein they delivered a month or two later than originally predicted, and the holster was very loose. (They did not have a model for my gun, a Colt 3-5-7.) When I brought this to their attention, they had me send the holster back, and they sent me a new, better fitting holster in about a week. I thought that was good customer service.

I did some research after I started this discussion. Apparently Kramer Leather was started by a guy named Greg kramer.

Greg Kramer passed on a couple years back and apparently now the company is run by his wife and she has three or four employees. I don't know how much business they get but that's not a lot of people

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Retired Career Security Guard

My last kramer holster took 11 months to arrive.

My take on all this is if you are in a business, manufacturing something, you should...no....need to know what you are capable of. By this I mean if you say you will deliver a product in X amount of months then you should deliver it in X amount of months. Yes, I realize that there can be circumstances that may throw a wrench into the plan, but that can't be used as a chronic excuse. You have to know your business and how long it takes to produce something. I have been waiting for something I ordered 15+ months ago. I have had "updates" about the item being delivered, usually saying that it will be another few months. I have received 4 of those now, the latest stating delivery "maybe" in the spring of this year. If that does occur, it will be 18 months after I was promised a initial delivery of 4 months, to 6 months maximum. In the meantime, they have informed me that they are taking care of orders placed after my order first, before they start mine. I am really a very patient person..if I order something and you tell me that it will be ready in 6 months, then that is fine, I won't contact you until the 6 months is up. You set the time frame, I did not. You know your work load, I do not. You know your capabilities, I do not, so therefore I rely on what you tell me as that is all I have to go on. Again, a month, maybe even two, if there is some unforseen problem, but a year? Just my rant for the day....

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Have Canon, Will Travel

I have a bunch of Kramer holsters. The one I bought last year took a lot longer then the time listed on the website. I ordered in in February and got it late fall.

I have to say that I was a little disappointed for the first time. It was the first shoulder holster I had bought from them and the backside of the metal snap was exposed and it would have scratched the gun. I ended up getting a small piece of leather, thinning it with sandpaper and gluing it on the exposed metal. It cured the issue but then the retention strap was a little short and it was difficult to get it snapped until I got it broken in. even now it's a little tight but I'm sure it will get better with time.

That being said, I don't think there is a better CCW holster on the market then a horsehide belt scabbard.

This is false. Greg Kramer is
alive and well. His wife, Kim, answers
the phone, places orders, charges orders, etc. She is the "office manager".
Kramer and I both grew up on Long
Island about the same time. He started by working for Gene DeSantis.

R. Nichols will be along shortly to bash Kramer and Milt Sparks, as he never passes up an opportunity to do so.

And yes, Kramer Leather is behind and late with orders. They advertise 14-16 weeks, but it's more like 23-24 weeks.
Most custom holster makers are running late. Try Sparks, and you'll be waiting about 11 months.

Over the years, I have tried a bunch of different holster makers. The easy button for me (for OWB), is Kramer. They are just more comfortable and more concealable for me.

My last one took about 10 months, despite the 14-16 week estimate.

The one I received in January took 9 1/2 months. Wasn't real pleased about that.

Well, I debated whether or not to buy a Kramer. I decided to do it, but I do not think I will do it again. I am a full 3 months into a 4 month wait. I will contact them now and start asking if they are going to meet the schedule. Squeaky wheel thing.

I agree with horsehide being the best. I have a contact in PA that is a horsehide holster maker, and he makes nice stuff. I want another holster, and I am going to contact him

Below is a horsehide holster he made for my Glock 36

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Pete
I ain't no fortunate son

That's well executed holster, Pete!

If you contact Kramer you will only fuel
your aggravation. Also, inquiring a
month before the holster is estimated
to be done is putting the cart before
the horse!

I'm glad to hear that. Maybe since you know you could call him and tell him to get off his *** and make my holster

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Retired Career Security Guard

I own 3 Kramer holsters. Glock 19, Glock 26, S&W 4006 and I'm waiting for a shoulder holster for my 19.

I've never used another custom holster maker. I'm probably only ever going to buy another holster for my M&P 9. If I do it will probably be from Kramer because I can afford to wait.

But it will very likely be the last.

This particular holster was promised between 12 and 16 weeks. We contacted Kramer in the 16th week and were told we'd get it between Feb 7th and 12th.

I'm hoping that with that small a window I'll actually get it soon.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Gotta fight your own battles, friend

I wasn't serious

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Retired Career Security Guard

I know, I couldn't resist!

UPDATE I called Kramer this morning. We ordered the holster on September 26th. So it should have been here about the middle of January at the latest.

We emailed in late January and we were told that the holster would certainly be here between February 7th and February 12th.

I called this morning and I was told that the holster wasn't complete yet and they hope to have it shipped within 2 weeks.

When I pointed out to the lady that she had advertised a 16-week delivery time frame and if they kept this promise we wouldn't be getting it for over 20 weeks, her response was "Oh well,sorry."

I'm fairly certain I won't be buying another holster from them

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Retired Career Security Guard

No excuse for running a business like that.
Extra long backorders and missed delivery dates are common with gun-related product suppliers. More so than with most other small businesses.
I firmly believe you could get 3 new-built-from-the-ground-up Indy race cars built in half the time some of these holster guys take to fill orders.
I refuse to wait that long.

I buy Kramer holsters because they’re worth the wait, and the expense. Are they late? Yes, but so is everyone and everything else. That’s just life. You want the best there is, get in line at Kramer.

If you needed it yesterday, that’s why Uncle Mike’s exist. Me personally if someone gave an Uncle Mikes holster to me, I’d throw it in the trash.

Right now, or high quality… Pick One.

I have one Kramer already, purchased from Dillon when he had a bunch made for Mountain revolvers. If I wanted another, I would order and wait, and be glad I could still get one. Others will do as they see fit.

I have bought a number of O'Rourkes, and I don't remember the waiting time on any. I do remember the quality.

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Formerly Model520Fan

If I haven't made myself abundantly clear, it's not the amount of time I'm waiting that's bothering me. It's the fact that they lied to me about the amount of time I'd be waiting that's bothering me.

They've been doing this for a while. They should have a reasonable idea of how long it's actually going to take to get my holster.

If they're willing to lie to me about that, what else are they willing to lie to me about?

They shouldn't be giving orders that came in after mine priority.

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Retired Career Security Guard

My go to leather guy is Rob Leahy at Simply Rugged but I do have a Kramer for a Glock 20 and a horsehide paddle for a 1911. Both are good leather. It's been maybe 10 years since I got one, so I can't speak to current wait times. I picked up my G20 at a local gun show they used to sell at so that was pretty convenient. Their plant is local so I just drove down there for my paddle holster.

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Even older, even crankier....

Why not pick both? (I do need to sell some holsters, tho!)

I don't see this as lying. I don't think they are being deliberately misleading. I think, rather, that they make a poor estimate as to how much time it will take, but since this is common in their (custom) niche in the overall holster industry, they don't worry about it much. And, based on the positive comments here, the general acceptance of the way overdue deliveries, perhaps with good reason. Their order book is overflowing.

With your holster finally does arrive, Smoke, I hope it meets with your satisfaction.

(I am waiting on an overdue Barranti and feeling, well, anxious as well.)

I have a Kramer MSP paddle holster. It is a very comfortable holster, but I sold the gun that I used it for. I thought that I could get Kramer to just make the holster part and I could swap it out for a new Sig that I bought. I called them and inquired. The person I talked to not only told me that they did not do that, she was extremely rude about it. I decided then that they might control the holsters, but I control my own money and I will not deal with people like that. I guess its like a car salesman said about a local dealership's notoriously poor service. He said that there were so many "newcomers" moving into this area that they did not care if they made customers mad as new idiots were moving in every day. I do not fancy myself an idiot, so I'll just go to someone who wants my business.

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Bill

……DeSantis…….

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I’m your Boogie Man, uh huh.

Yup. Including the 'new day, new dawn' sig line:

HORSEHIDE HOLSTER - DeSantis Holsters

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The Holstorian

I'm sorry but I do and that's going to have a major impact on any future purchase I make (or don't make) from them.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Hey, Smoke I hear ya. I wrote a couple of long responses, but deleted them.

Essentially, I don't hold customer holster makers, or other craftsmen, to the same standards that I expect from most commercial enterprises, contractors, or businessmen. But I do understand why you do.

Shouldn’t Kramer and other makers at least be honest enough with their customers tell them the truth about their chronic inability to deliver by the date given plus or minus a week?

I've only placed 2 orders with Kramer. The 1st was a few years back for a crossdraw for my 3" King Cobra. Nice holster, works well, totally satisfied.

The most recent order was placed on 7/29/2024 and delivered on 12/30/2024. The latest one was a hot mess with a loose fit. I took a bunch of pics and emailed Kim to return it. She responded about a week later and got the ball rolling.

Returned on 1/13/25, to a parcel locker.
I emailed her on 1/28/25 (1st follow up).
Used the "Contact-Us" on 2/6/25 (2nd follow up).
Still haven't received a reply, so I will call today.

Update: I spoke with Kim and they agreed to do a refund minus their 25% restocking fee. I'm happy with that.

I own 4 Kramer Horsehide holsters, 2 for revolvers and 2 for pistols. I also own 2 Horsehide 1 1/4" belts, magazine pouches and bullet drop pouches. The last rig I ordered was 6 years ago for my P365 and I believe I waited about 2 months. Believe me, his goods are well worth the wait! Obviously his stuff is in very high demand!

Here is my EDC Kramer rig for my Sig P365. It's 6 years old and gets worn at least 3-4 days a week when not pocket carrying the P365. Other than a quick Kiwi or Lincoln show polish application once a year nothing at all has been done to it and it still looks like the day I received it! It is still stiff and has perfect retention, even if turned upside down. That said, the draw is crisp and fast. When the pistol is reholstered, it sounds almost like Kydex.

Once you get it you will forget how long it took to receive. I am a huge fan of Kramer's Horsehide leather and would not look anywhere else for a holster or accessories. IMHO, his stuff is "numero uno"!

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BTW, when ordering the holsters I have always spoken to Kramer's wife who is in the order taking dept. She knows her stuff too! Sorry I don't remember her name but she used to always answer the phone - maybe she still does. She is very polite, helpful and truthful about he wait times. From what I understand, all Kramer's goods are custom made to order.

Hmm, I was unaware of his passing! Sorry to hear that!

After some research of my own I have just read Greg Kramer is STILL alive and well and the rumors of his death are ..... just rumors. I never heard that he had died up until I read it in this post, so I was a bit skeptical.

Let's talk irony......
Over the past year or so I have found myself (for myriad different reasons) putting holsters made by top tier makers up for sale at 50%-65% less than current prices only to have them sit unsold for weeks, months until I take them off the selling block and just keep them or give them away.
These are holsters and other pieces of leather gear made by guys like R. Grizzle, Sam Andrews, Wright Leather, and similar quality craftsmen. I own no off the wall sidearms; so anything I'm selling fits handguns like 1911s, Glock (19, 43, 30, etc.) S&W J-frame,
Ruger, SIG.....mainstream stuff.
So why people will grumble about long lead times for good quality leather gear often available immediately and in excellent condition shall remain a puzzle to me. I don't really like the insane wait which often comes with buying fine leather. My last order from Milt Sparks took more than 9 months. Odd when you think about the idea that a full term pregnancy is about as long a time......

I snagged a Kramer 4" belt scabbard for an S&W M10 off the classifieds here at an excellent price and was delighted to do so. Probably well used but looks like new. Got it for my M65.

I own one I bought off the shelf in a gun store in CA almost 30 ears ago for my S&W 640-1. My daily carry and it is held tight.

By the time I get my holster it's going to be approximately EIGHT weeks late.

Are you telling us they charge you 25% of the price of the holster to take back a holster that they screwed up?

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Retired Career Security Guard

My Dad used to keep a little wood plaque hanging on the side of his desk:
QUALITY
PRICE
DELIVERY
CHOOSE TWO

We all have to spend our money however we think is best. I was not raised in an “instant gratification” environment.

Yes, but there are extenuating circumstances. They had already made a replacement. Kim said it was currently "drying" prior to shipment. The problem is I told them I wanted a refund. Their policy is either store credit, or a refund minus 25%. I didn't appreciate being ignored for a month, but at least I receive the bulk of my funds back and wash my hands of it. Sadly, their quality seems to have gone downhill.

My experience has been that in the gun business, there are a lot of small shops turning out various products who DO know their limitations, and spell those out for their customers, some of whom just can't accept that.

Years ago, I wanted some custom grips for a 3" Model 625 that I knew I would keep forever. Looking around, I called Roy Fishpaw, and we talked. I told him what I wanted, and he quoted me a price and told me he would be in touch when he was ready to make the grips.

More than a year later, I got a letter from Mr. Fishpaw advising that he was ready to make my grips. I called him, and with his permission, I delivered the 625 to him personally at his home in Lynchburg, Virginia...it was a great motorcycle ride down Skyline Drive and the Blue Ridge Parkway! (He was gracious and very, very nice...showed me his shop and the scrapbook he kept of grips he'd made.) After another 4 months or so, he shipped the revolver back to me, with the new grips installed.

Craig Spegel is another artisan with a years-long waiting list, and he's very upfront and honest about telling you that. You call him, he takes your name and number, and when he's ready to make your grips he'll call you. When your grips are ready to ship, he'll call you again, you then send him payment, and he'll send your grips. The last High Power grips I bought from him took more than 2 years, and for the last year or so I've been on his "revolver list". I know it'll be at least another year or two before he can fill my order, and that's okay...the quality is worth the wait.

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Where Law Ends, Tyranny Begins

Red,

We may be talking about two different things. You, being a designer, look for that in a product.

Me, I want a product that lives up to my expectations, is built to my standards, and performs the way I expect it to perform. I am happy with scabbards that replicate some of the older classic holsters.

Others have different expectations.

But, I see the quality of holsters from the major makers has declined in this century. That is why I seek out and promote the little guys, the custom stitchers.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Over the 50 years I have been carrying, I have probably had more holsters, gun belts, pouches and gear than most. I was always searching for the perfect combination of design, material, build quality, performance and longevity. I have had Milt Sparks, Bruce Nelson, Mitch Rosen, Rick Bachman, and a slew of others custom make what I thought was going to be the perfect holster. They all had long wait times, they all charged a pretty penny and while they were all very nice and high quality in their own right, there was always some feature or quirk to keep me from rating them at 100%.

I do not care for "excuses" and that (to me) means snaps, straps, screws, velcro, etc. that make up for a less than proper design and fit for a particular gun. I also do not care for holsters made to generally fit different but similar guns.

After receiving my very first Kramer Horsehide Holster, belt and bullet pouch decades ago I knew I had found what I was looking for and never looked back. IMHO there just isn't any better - anywhere. Maybe prettier or better looking, but not functionally better. IMO he offers the best quality made out of the best horsehide and the fit, finish and retention qualities are second to none. But, that is just my personal opinion. I am sure others have their experiences and opinions too. Once again, I have absolutely no ties to Kramer or his company. I do not get one penny from him nor would he know me if he ran me over - lol. I only tout his products because IMO they really are that good. I have never been disappointed.

The research wasn't needed, if you had read my post above, #8

When you consider the time-frame promised, I don't think a month off from that is unreasonable. However, I have no axe to grind, either way.......

No placating, dissenting view, or defending view is going to satisfy the original poster.
He is committed to do as much dirt as he can to the Kramers.

I'm out of this "discussion".

Funny. I got an e-mail from Kramer Leather this morning asking me to rate my latest purchase. Hopefully, addressed the concerns on this thread.

I have holsters from several makers with long lead times (Milt Sparks, Barranti, etc.). Typically, these makers have the reputation they do (and the long lead time) for a reason. The same is true for Kramer.

While I think they might lose a few orders by doubling (or tripling) their delivery estimate, I think they would prevent damaging discussions like the one we have had here.

I, for one, will continue to do business with Kramer, but I understand the frustrations conveyed by some of the contributors to this discussion.

I haven't said a single thing about my experience with this company except my mistaken belief that Greg Kramer had died) that wasn't true.

I'm not sure how telling the truth about my experience with them to be considered doing them dirt.

They advertise that the holster would be ready between 12 and 16 weeks. We're coming up on 22 weeks now and they still haven't completed the holster that Mrs. Kramer promised me by February 12th.

That is a 100% true statement. No dirt there

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Retired Career Security Guard

Speaking for myself, I think Kramer would be doing themselves a favor by adopting an ordering system similar to Milt Sparks. Sparks now takes the order and has a 2 step verification process. Step 1: customer reviews the order for accuracy in the initial email. If the order is correct it enters the general queue. Step 2: about a month before the holster goes into production, the customer must approve the order (last chance to make any changes). Once approved, it goes into the production queue. The customer's card is charged when it ships. It's a seemless way to manage the customer's expectations with minimal communication.

Charging the customer's card immediately upon placing the order, and then failing to come close to meeting the estimated delivery time listed on the website just asks for trouble. Just my $0.02 free of charge.