What is deadly?

anglaispierre · Nov 1, 2009

I set out below a copy of a thread I posted elswhere, slightly edited, for your consideration.

There seems to be an fascination among some shooters to achieve greater power. And small caliber ammo is generally regarded as inadequate for personal defence.

A more powerful bullet may not necesarily be more accurate. In fact I have read that the opposite is likely to be the case. So for target shooting go for the softer shot. For hunting the same thing applies together with the effect the bullet will have on the target. The military have apparently commented that some bullets simply pass through the target ie enemy.

Can I remind you that in 2007 and 2008 in Finland, 8 and 10 people were killed respectively in school massacres. The guns? According to reports they were in one case a Sig Sauer Mosquito .22 and in the other case a Walther P22. Presumably the murderers in each case were not standing next to the victims. A self defence situation is much more likely to be in very close proximity.

So .22 handguns are deadly at medium range, and presumably more deadly at close quarters.

jkc · Nov 1, 2009

Ultimately deadly and immediately, fight-stoppingly incapacitating aren't the same thing. I'd way rather have a superior caliber for the same reason that I'd rather not try to infect you with some fatal disease as a self-defense tactic --- dead only matters in hunting --- out of the fight is what counts in self-defense situations...

sasu · Nov 1, 2009

Allyn said:
Finland, 8 and 10 people were killed respectively in school massacres. The guns? According to reports they were in one case a Sig Sauer Mosquito .22 and in the other case a Walther P22.

I am Finnish and I have read several reports on the shootings.

The victims were paralyzed with fear and the murderer walked to them one at a time and put several bullets, I think a dozen or so, into each victim from a touching distance.

The murderers even had time to refill their magazines. Probably even just one properly motivated person could have stopped the shooter.

The police and medics did not enter the building in either case until after a lengthy delay so even if the victims did not die of other trauma they would have bled to death.

These two school shootings are not a sample of 22 LR lethality in a firefight as in these two cases there was no fighting, just helpless victims waiting for their turn to die.

BlackSky · Nov 1, 2009

They key here is shot placement.

If you have the ability and control to accurately hit your target in a vital location with a large caliber weapon in a stressful self defense senario then you're all set.

If you doubt your ability to put large caliber bullets into your target in such a situation then a smaller caliber weapon that you are able to put a bullet on target is likely a better choice for you.

In a self defense situation I'd much rather shoot my enemy in the head or heart with a .32 than in the thigh with a .44. Of course all of those wounds could likely kill your enemy but in a self defense situation I'm looking to stop the enemy instantly, like turning off a light switch which means accurate shot placement regardless of caliber.

The answer to this question, which constantly comes up on all gun forums I've been on, is to chose the largest caliber weapon you can consistently hit small targets with in a stressful situation.

BlackSky · Nov 1, 2009

sasu said:
I am Finnish and I have read several reports on the shootings.

The victims were paralyzed with fear and the murderer walked to them one at a time and put several bullets, I think a dozen or so, into each victim from a touching distance.

The murderers even had time to refill their magazines. Probably even just one properly motivated person could have stopped the shooter.

The police and medics did not enter the building in either case until after a lengthy delay so even if the victims did not die of other trauma they would have bled to death.

These two school shootings are not a sample of 22 LR lethality in a firefight as in these two cases there was no fighting, just helpless victims waiting for their turn to die.

Very sad, sounds like cattle in a slaughter line. Nuetered to the point of not being able to act in your own defense.

Iggy · Nov 1, 2009

We are training our kids to be sheep too. Call 911!!!

feralmerril · Nov 1, 2009

There is "assassination", then there is stopping someone. Not the same.
Military uses solids per genieva convention in theory to give a solider a chance at liveing after being taken out of the action. A policemans role is not to kill but stop a perp.
I worked with a homicide detective, retired from 1940s to early 60s from indiapolis. He said the .22 lr was about the nastiest bullet to get hit with. He said a body hit usualy ended with the bullet ricoshaying all around the rib cage like a ping pong ball. Yet if it didnt hit bone, you might get lucky. He had a partner that got shot through the rib cage. The bullet didnt hit bone, and he said the hospital put a bandade on the entrance and exit wound and said he was good to go!

oldRoger · Nov 1, 2009

I think that the old mobsters frequently used .22s to carry out hits on unsuspecting victims. If you are in a barber chair totally relaxed with a hot towel over your face and some one carefully places the shot, it’s all over but the funeral.

Self-defense as jkc says is a matter of taking the attacker out of the fight. This more than likely is not .22 territory unless the attacker is a palmetto bug.

anglaispierre · Nov 1, 2009

To start with, I think I complicated the issue by dealing with two points in my initial post, namely the choice of calibre and choice of extra powerful ammo. I think it was a mistake to bunch them together.

Sasu, may I first of all say that I feel sorry for the families of all of the victims, and at least in one case for the 12 victims who were shot but did not die. None of the reports I have read gave the details which you have set out. Two magazines per person. Did no-one think to run away. I think you have been misled.

I did not chose Finland for any reason other than it demonstrated the point I was making about small calibre handguns being deadly. Finland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world outside of the US, but a very low gun-related crime rate. These were blips, and they occur in many countries.

As to the calibre (sorry if I continue to use English spellings) I accept that if you are hit someone with a twig it will have less impact than hitting them with a branch. A bigger bullet is therefore going to damage more body tissue than a smaller one of similar type, all other things being equal. The point I was making is that a smaller calibre can do the job quite well. And any bullet that doesn't spread on impact will pass through causing minimum damage if it is travelling at sufficient speed, thereby failing in its objective. I would almost agree with BlackSky but would change the wording slightly to "chose the largest caliber weapon you feel comfortable with .......". For some people that will be a .22, for others a .44, although I would have thought a .44 would be slightly large as a self defence weapon. I know some of you guys carry 1911 originals or clones. Nice gun but too large for purpose in my opinion.

The other point I raised was the fascination with extra power. Does it actually achieve anything? When I buy, I buy standard ammo. When I reload I start off slightly below recommended load, and gradually increase up to it. I have never been tempted to exceed it.

elcruisr · Nov 1, 2009

I don't know why a 1911 should be to large. I've carried a Commander a lot for years, sort of swap between it and a .357 revo depending on the season. The 1911 conceals easily, shoots accurately and has a wide range of ammo for varying tastes. Same with the .357 for that matter.

Extra power is a matter of taste as well. However if you are faced with a very large and aggressive attacker whose stoked on mind altering drugs you just might change your opinion as to how much you need.

One gent I knew emptied his Glock 9mm into the chest of an attacker at close range and still had a wild fight on that was to the death. The attacker weighed in at 240 and he weighed about 200. The attacker was wasted on meth. The attacker was also winning the fight until he got to his back up weapon and made a center chest contact shot with a 3" +P .45acp which transited the chest and severed the lunatics spine. He still spent a year in rehab recovering from his injuries. He doesn't think much of anything smaller than a .45 any more.

oldRoger · Nov 1, 2009

Rule one if there are rules is to have a gun if deadly force is needed.
Next is to carry something you feel comfortable shooting and carrying.
As you point out small holes through the trunk may not end the matter. If there is a home invasion I would prefer not to wait until peritonitis / exsanguination sets in.

A good motto is; A 9 mm/38 may fail to expand, but a 44/45 will not shrink.

I think you have a point about over doing it especially in your house, over penetration is not your friend there.

gizamo · Nov 1, 2009

Allyn said:
To start with, I think I complicated the issue by dealing with two points in my initial post, namely the choice of calibre and choice of extra powerful ammo. I think it was a mistake to bunch them together.

Sasu, may I first of all say that I feel sorry for the families of all of the victims, and at least in one case for the 12 victims who were shot but did not die. None of the reports I have read gave the details which you have set out. Two magazines per person. Did no-one think to run away. I think you have been misled.

I did not chose Finland for any reason other than it demonstrated the point I was making about small calibre handguns being deadly. Finland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world outside of the US, but a very low gun-related crime rate. These were blips, and they occur in many countries.

As to the calibre (sorry if I continue to use English spellings) I accept that if you are hit someone with a twig it will have less impact than hitting them with a branch. A bigger bullet is therefore going to damage more body tissue than a smaller one of similar type, all other things being equal. The point I was making is that a smaller calibre can do the job quite well. And any bullet that doesn't spread on impact will pass through causing minimum damage if it is travelling at sufficient speed, thereby failing in its objective. I would almost agree with BlackSky but would change the wording slightly to "chose the largest caliber weapon you feel comfortable with .......". For some people that will be a .22, for others a .44, although I would have thought a .44 would be slightly large as a self defence weapon. I know some of you guys carry 1911 originals or clones. Nice gun but too large for purpose in my opinion.

The other point I raised was the fascination with extra power. Does it actually achieve anything? When I buy, I buy standard ammo. When I reload I start off slightly below recommended load, and gradually increase up to it. I have never been tempted to exceed it.

Exactly where in Europe are you located?

giz

anglaispierre · Nov 1, 2009

I'm in France. Won't say where 'cos someone may come round toting a gun (lol). Wouldn't be writing all this if I was in England. Stupid Scottish socialist dictator Blair banned hand guns, and getting licence for other guns is complicated. Police put every obstacle they can think of in the way. France is much more relaxed, but still full of restrictions. Only allowed 12 handguns.

gizamo · Nov 1, 2009

Allyn,

Thanks, always want to know the folks I'm having a discussion with and their background. No harm intended. See from some of your prior posts in the gun forums that your a .22 guy...Me too!

In America the saying goes that all "Politics is Local"...

So this Global Warming or Cooling thing is subjective, based on one's geography. Living in Maine this year...it was a wet and cool Summer. My daughter in Texas was in high heat and drought. Point is this country of ours covers a lot of Lat/Long...

Anyrate...it's a S&W forum and anyone from France that is a gun guy will have my ear. Always interested in a broader view of any gun-toter in a nother' land.

But American politics will get you into a whole different discussion pronto...

Be well, lookin' forward to seeing how this turns out.

giz

anglaispierre · Nov 1, 2009

Giz, they say never talk religion or politics.

I'm into .22, 357 Mag, 9mm, and two .44 Black powder in handguns plus .22(x2), 30-30, .44 Mag(x2), 444 Marlin in rifles and a couple of shotguns. Chasing after a .32 or a 380 ACP Walther PPK and a NAA Black Widow .22 Mag at the moment. I quite like guns.

Snapping Twig · Nov 1, 2009

There's a cliche that states:

The 11th Commandment

Never enter a handgun battle with any caliber that does not start with at least a .4

Given enough velocity, a grain of sand is lethal - and more, so smaller caliber rounds are more dependent on velocity than larger and heavier ones.

Stopping a threat equals incapacitation, not necessarily death. In order to stop a threat, a distraction due to injury and/or pain is the goal.

I hope to never really know the answers, but I prepare by carrying .45acp with a cast 230g TC bullet. Good enough to hunt with, it should translate into a good defense round against thin skinned 2 legged predators. Nothing short of a ballistic vest should prevent it from penetrating any bone or tissue it encounters - clean through.

Rule3 · Nov 1, 2009

Allyn said:
Giz, they say never talk religion or politics.

I think they should add stopping power/ballistics to that also.
I usually do not enter into what is a better self defense round questions. It seems the USA is bigger is always better. Sure a 45 ACP and a 357 Mag are awesome knock down power. But I for one can not always carry one. I live in polo shirts and shorts. It was 90+ degrees F today. I am not going to dress for a gun so I chose pocket pistols. 380. 9mm and 38 spl snub.The .380 round is one of my favorite to shoot. Seven rounds, easy to carry, very accurate.With today's modern ammo expansion is very good. What would James Bond do without it.

Lots of folks turn their nose up at .380 but as you know, it has been a very popular round in Europe for many years with both LE and Military. I have yet to find someone who will hold my target at 10 feet while I practice.

When they snivel at .380 auto I tell them it's really a 9mm Kurz and their eyes open up, "Oh that's better"

If whatever I carry stops a person from doing some harm to me or family and I get away safe, then that's all I care about, whether he falls down crying or DOA I don't care.

charlie sherrill · Nov 1, 2009

I started as a 21 year old rookie LEO on July 1, 1969. Until the last few years the majority of the homicides around here were committed with .22 or .25 caliber cartridges. Most were only one or two shots. The 9 mm fever hit a few years ago and the smaller calibers have been pretty much been forgotten. Now a lot of the BG's carry .40's and .45's. The last two homicides I was involved with were shot with .45 acp.

If you're ever involved in a mass killing situation and stand a good chance of being a victim the best chance you have if you're unarmed is to convince a few people around you to charge the assailent and try to beat them to death or kill them with their own gun. You may lose a few people but not as many as you would have had you done nothing. In other words, be a sheepdog, not a sheep. If you are armed you should know whar to do.

Unfortunately our world has been conditioned to call 911. In the real world you're gonna be there a lot sooner than we are.

sasu · Nov 1, 2009

Allyn said:
Did no-one think to run away.

Many people escaped in the chaos, through doors and windows. But too many people stayed put.

One report even tested how many school books it takes to stop a 22 LR bullet and the author wondered why people did not shield themselves with their school bag or some other object and try to escape.

It was the same in Virginia Tech if I remember the survivor accounts correctly. The killer just walked from person to person each hiding behind their desk and put a bullet in their head.

No stopping power is needed if there is no-one to stop.

As to these school shootings it is a shame that most people are brought up so far from reality that they do not have survival and fighting instincts. Evil people can momentarily dominate in a society where they do not encounter physical resistance.

Our neighbor Estonia has legalized carrying a gun for self defense purposes. Good on them for understanding essential human rights and the realities of life.

BarbC · Nov 2, 2009

I've heard too many first-hand accounts of people being shot with a 9mm without much result, e.g. the adrenalin rush is such that they don't even know they've been hit. So I'll practice with and carry my .45 and dress around it because if there's anything that's worse than not bringing a gun it's bringing an inadequate one and watching your shots go unnoticed into your attacker.

What is deadly?

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