I'm not sure if you are much of a believer in the Glock 20 but; this incident really happened. (Breath) Bear! -2,3,4 In-2,3,4, I advise you give me the road! The 10mm Auto is the big daddy version of the .40S&W. The following link should cause you to consider that a Glock 20 chambered in 10mm Auto can be a good defense caliber for Alaska or anywhere else. The Alaskan Rangers carry the Glock 22 .40S&W and even that works. So, why do I sit here trying to convince peeps that the 10mm is perfect for all around use? It's because I know baby. Read my preceeding comments on this thread. A Glock 20 with 15 round magazine, loaded with Gold Dot Hollow Points, in a nice DeSantis Shoulder Holster will keep your bacon fresh day or night. You can wear it to the can, or in your sleeping bag, in your bibs or over your coat. This will work because it will be there all the time. GET ONE!

to be safe, you need to think of something else. you will be dead long before the bear is.

Wrong mindset! Churchill said it before me, but never, never,never. never give up!

I know of a case in which a man stabbed a lion as it was dragging him off to eat. He wasn't planning on playing Tarzan, but it worked. His rifle was on his horse, and two lions attacked out of the long grass. His horse bolted, throwing him. His belt knife was all that he had. He got off with an arm that was only partially efffective thereafter. The lion's hide was on display for years after, in Kruger National Park.

If a knife can kill a lion, maybe a handgun can kill a big bear. They sometimes do, you know. I've encountered a number of such incidents.

And a black bear may be what attacks, if anything does. The majority of PREDATORY bear attacks are by black bears. I know of one killed by a fisherman (with a knife!) that was found to have about seven men stashed nearby, in a meat cache.

Keep in mind that this couple will carry rifles and maybe a 12 gauge. But if one can't get to the rifle, or it jams, a handgun can be priceless. I'd use a S&W M-629 with six-inch barrel. But the lady involved can't handle a .44 Magnum, or any N-frame gun. The man will carry a .44 Mag or a .454. I'm going to encourage them to go to a zoo or museum and study bear anatomy. Does anyone have diagrams of a bear's body, showing the internal organs?

T-Star

I don't see any smiley faces about, so I assume you're serious. I'm told everything is bigger in Texas, but I'm calling BS on the body count.

Brian~

Honestly, not enough gun. People relying on mag capacity may be in for a rude surprise too. You can really only count on that first shot. Bears are FAST and can get in really close before you know they are there. (My guide once hit a large brownie on the nose with a stick while swatting bushes along the trail) For years I carried a Smith mdl 29 6" and quite honestly never for one moment decided that the long gun was too much hassle to carry.


I'd like to mention a side note, practice drawing the damn thing. A handgun does you no good when it's in a tight holster wrapped over by fishing gear, rain ponchos and pack straps. On one occasion the guide was the only person out of five that managed to bring a gun to aim. That bear could have had all six of us if he'd have had a mind to.

Having never had to deal with any animal personally like a bear, I will relay a story about my wife's uncle Earl:

He lived in the hills in back country Eastern Tennessee. He was uneducated and a drunk. He also possessed unassailable comfidence, probably because his body had adapted to being in a state of near-constant inebriation.

There were several Black bears that lived in the area that ate garbage and ruined cookouts from time to time. People shot at them, usually with shotguns or whatever they could find, more as a deterrent or annoyance to drive them away. None were ever killed. These were usually 12 gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot.

In a state of drunkenness, Early had taken to playing with two bear cubs out of eyeshot of any "kinfolk." This continued for several minutes. Supposedly he was giving them bits of food and punctuating his play with swigs of whiskey from the heavy glass bottle we was drinking out of.

From the woods came a mother bear that assumed some sort of threatening position and walked up to Earl. The noise she made alerted other people who all came out with their shotguns and whatnot, but none had rifles. Nobody could take a shot because Earl could shake hands with this bear he was so close. She assumed some sort of position where she projected her muzzle forward and snarled at him. When this happened he stood up and casually guzzled the last few ounces of whiskey in the bottle. As he licked his lips he reached back and whacked the bear's muzzle as hard as he could with that (now) empty whiskey bottle. The bottle shattered and injured the she bear. Almost instantly she retreated from the scene with her cubs in hot pursuit, followed by volley of shotgun fire.

So for Blacks it would seem the best defense would be a heavy glass whiskey bottle. Since Grizzlies and Browns are a bit too tall for this approach, a nice purpose-built revolver like the Ruger Alaskan in 454 of with reasonable accuracy might be helpful for bear work. But I might keep the bottle just in case.

Generally has the same ballistics of a .41 magnum IF it is shot out of a 9" barrel. Lone Wolf makes em for the Glock 10mm.

What is a Mossy500? I assume it's some kind of gun. I can't seem to find a gun named Mossy.

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Carpriver.

I am not sure ANY pistol (even the much vaunted .500) is ideal for large brown bears. I prefer more, like the .375 H&H or above. If the Glock 20 it is, though, I would load it with heavy loads from Norma, or Buffalo Bore has a hard cast and a FMJ that I would go to. The Glock is probably a good choice for AK (the weather resistance) and I have found it as comfortable and reliable as anything else to shoot with the 10mm, which ,besides the .45 ACP, is the only auto round I care for. The 10mm/.45/.44 arena are good to buy some time to get to the house/truck and get a nice .416 Rigby into action. The problem is the shooter. Yes there are those individuals who can make a perfect shot all the time, no matter what. Then there are the people who can make the perfect shot and drop them when everything goes right. With bears things rarely go right (they are like us in that respect) and you can't plan for what may do the job under certain circumstances, you have to plan for what will clean up the mess when everything goes to total ****. You are never prepared for any situation that any animal will throw at you unless you lug a .577NE around all the time.

The people I know regard 44 Mag as the minimum. If she can't handle it, the shotgun sounds like a good choice.

I carry the Glock 20. A few years ago, in Colorado, I had a benign encounter with a large Black bear. Not a small black bear. A large one. Although I had my Glock 20 with 15 round magazine I felt, very very unarmed. Also, I had in my hands a single shot 30-06 (Ruger). I still felt very unarmed. But I did have my Glock 20 none the less. If you carry it, that is what you are stuck with, if you do then I recommend Gold Dot bullets. Designed to Penetrate and hold it's mass. Hand loaded to higher velocities. You can't really buy Bear loads over the counter in 10mm. But mind the pressure.

I have seen several documentary shows where teams work with or around polar bears, and many times the people are carrying short barreled pump shotguns with folding stocks, slung on their backs. That would seem to be less cumbersome than carrying a Marlin guide gun on a sling, and having a light Glock 10m/m for backup would seem like a good choice.

I have seen several documentary shows where teams work with or around polar bears, and many times the people are carrying short barreled pump shotguns with folding stocks, slung on their backs. That would seem to be less cumbersome than carrying a Marlin guide gun on a sling, and having a light Glock 10m/m for backup would seem like a good choice.

I had a custome license plate border on an Acura that displayed my 10mm preference. Some stranger in a parking lot once asked me if I was "....hunting elephants with that?".

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9tenz

I'm amused whenever I read these "handguns for bear" threads, same as the elk threads on some of the hunting forums.

Anyway...If any of you ever get near West Yellowstone Montana absolutely visit the Grizzly Interpritive Center. You will be within twelve feet of the big coastal grizzly's and Kodiaks.

Take a look at those guys up close..then rethink any ideas of using a pistol on them.

FN in MT

I would suggest against ANY hollow points in 10mm (for bear) and the Gold Dot is no execption.

100% weight retention does not equate to the same penetration as a non expanding bullet. A hollow point is designed to expand and expose a larger frontal area. That larger exposed area causes it to slow down (shed energy) faster, creating the vauted temporal cavity. The faster it slows down the shallower the penetration. Hollow points actually have less penetration when driven faster, until you reach a point where you exceed the energy necessary to fully expand the bullet, then penetration begins to creep back up as long as the bullet holds together.

I would suggest 200 gr FMJ loaded to reach 1200 fps. That is the original factory load for the 10 mm (though now days it will be hard to find). It should give very good penetration and shouldn't exceed the power level the Glock was built for.

As to whether 10 mm is enough - I can't give anything but theory. I've never had an encounter with a bear, let alone had to shoot one. I would guess that it would be better than a sharp stick or a rock. I would, however, bet that it would be better than a gun she refuses to practice with or refuses to carry.

penetration is not stopping power, you can shoot an elk or bear with a .300 WIN MAG multiple times and that animal will run another mile, the penetration is good, but only if vitals are hit, the GOLD DOT increases the temporary wound cavity, and increases the permanent would channel and that is what actually stops an animal as apposed to penetration alone, that is why hydra shok is so successful, but penetration is better with GOLD DOT, making it a better bear load, if there was one, the point is optimize the load for the calibre even if the caliber is not optimum the load can be,

Great comment! Seeing Reggie live and in person sort of puts it all into perspective doesn't it? What incredible strength and power!!!

Randy

Some animals qualify for solids. If shooting a grizzly with a handgun doesn't meet that criteria, I don't know what would.

No stopping power data I've seen concurs with your statement that some stopping power situations require solids. I've only seen people who claim to have experienced it, but they probably didn't document scientifically what really caused the animal to stop, All the scientifically documented data I've seen suggests that stopping power is an amalgamation of factors, and not suggesting that it requires solids, if by solids you mean, a bullet with no expansion, in fact, it's not even legal in some states to hunt with.... most kinds of what I'd say are solids, because of the poor performance, the question is.. have you read this thread? politely asking of course.. because I lay out the skinny, and it's pretty good, *pats self on back* even though you don't appreciate the intense research invested... I bet, you will benefit from my suggestions listed preceeding this comment... Or, tell us what you mean by solids, and what you measured to be true regarding their performance or what others have measured, i'm not talking about, ... "I once could saw, that a grizzle bar, was taken down by a RN .38 Special to the roof of ees mouth" come on...

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Bullets :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: .458 45 CAL :: 45 Cal .458 500 gr DGS®

That is a 500 gr solid bullet. DGS stands for Dangerous Game Solid. They are used when using a rifle to hunt large, dangerous game. If a person is taking on a bear with a pistol, he needs the equivalent to that bullet in his pistol, a non-expanding solid for the deepest penetration possible.

I admire your find, but the question posed was for 10mm, the requirements of the essay, are not satisfied with your answer, did you read the thread? Did you read the question? The user asked a question and set some limits, you breached the parameters of the question.

No, I didn't. The principle is the same whether it's the 10mm or a .458 Winchester. When you are shooting game which is extremely tough and for which the gun is minimally powerful (such as a 10mm on a bear) you need penetration, not expansion.

The parameters are; it's a girl who does not like revolvers, and the question is; Glock20, can it work (10mm) on a grizz, not is it the best, but, is it possible, now, the bullet you posted would for sure work if placed well, but I can see that bullet is almost like armor piercing, which is usually not legal to hunt with that i know of, and the bullet you posted is also very good for penetration but it's the wrong caliber and firearm, the idea of the question is to explore the possibility of the 10mm hand loaded; as commercial loads are not available to best fit for grizz, and the user requested no other calibers be discussed, that does not mean I don't like that bullet you posted it's just not what the user asked, no offense. So to say that my suggestion of a 10mm loaded with 10.5 grains of blue dot and stuffed with a gold dot 180 grain bonded, seems to be the optimum load, based on the data i've seen, when one looks at available components that are loaded for 10mm that is, and to be honest, I'd never want to shoot a grizz with anything, because that grizz is 1,000 lbs of trouble I don't want to piss off, but if the bear ate your friend, or was feeding on your dog, then you might dump a mag or two into his nasal or occular cavity area, with what you have, be it a 10mm, then so be it, and if be it, be the gold dot 180 grainers which can penetrate the 10.5 inches necessary to destroy the brain, provided the round does not deflect,

Actually you can buy 230 gr WFN Gas Check bullets and loaded ammunition from Double Tap. 1120fps/641 fps Glock 20.
This is a very hard cast Keith Type Bullet. As you know Keith Types have very good penetration. I expect unless it hits bone it would come out about .401” as it went in.

I have utterly no interest in facing any Grizzly, but if I were in harms way with only my 10MM it would be with loaded with solids and Oh, would not be a Glock.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Exactly. A hard-cast Keith type swc or a FMJ flat point would be my recommendation.

It won't be nearly as traumatizing as being mauled by a bear.

The G20, is the only 10mm with a reputation well enough to be suggested unequivocally for several reasons, 1. Functional Reliability, 2. Ease of Use, 3. Stopping Power, 4. Fire Power, 5. Versatility, 6. Availability, 7. Cost. The bullets that function well in an autoloader are generally smooth rounded nosed bullets, Gold Dot satisfies all the contraints for this model. Weight in grains, Shape, Structural Integrity, Feed Reliability, Availability, Performance. I encourage all to check out Gold Dot's Web Site. So, I would recommend for someone using the G20, to hand load the Gold Dot bullet to it's max or just under max velocity, I personnaly prefer the 180grain JHP bonded, with 10.5 grains of BLUE DOT, and having the C.O.L. being almost perfect for reliability in the 10mm or G20, have probably 2 or more extra 15 round magazines, that giving one a 16 round capacity, with the ability to reload smooth, and that would at least put one in the game. This is a backup, to your 12GA minimum long gun. Any arguments?

Nope. Some of your points are interesting, but the Blocks don't fit my hand. The S&W 10mm autos do, don't kick much, and work. So the Block can NOT be recommended unequivocally, and perhaps one of the S&W's can.

YMMV.

You can quote me on the quote unquote.. but you may want to clarify because unequivocal endoresement is mine, not yours. Lol, unless you feel like giving my oppinion to me.

No argument, just total disagreement. A Gold Dot is not a dangerous game bullet. You could not pay me to try to use one on a bear.

Did you research anything? It's okay, if you didn't, but it's funny you are so hard headed about it, when so many people agree that the G20 is a very real and feasible option for bear defense, besides not all bears weight 1200 pounds, only world record bears, most bears depending on the breed weight, anywhere from 250lbs on up to 900lbs, where ususally people encounter bears around 400pounds being a big one. I have seen probably 4 bears in the wild, three looked so small I didn't understand why people worried, but the fourth was a big-n, I had a 10mm on my hip and a 30-06 in my hands, don't get me wrong, I didn't feel adequately equipped, but no .454 casull would have made me feel better either, the truth is, you will never feel good about it, no matter what you carry, the question is, can you survive with a 10mm as a backup, and the answer is yes, so don't be such a scardy cat, friend. Or stay home.

I'm wondering if you read the Chuck Hawks article you referenced.

Note the key word--penetration.

I prize my G20, I am completely confident in it, I have shot so many rounds of ammunition through it that I know that firearms capabilities, I have owned about three of them, I sometimes carry two of them, I have shot Federal, Hornady, Cor-Bon, Hydra Shok, Gold Dot, Hi Shok, I have been elk hunting many o times with it, and I guarantee you, that firearm, will rock when it comes time, and it will go bang when you most sincerely need it to, I had it when I encountered those bears, which have never even so much as bothered me with a sniff, realistically, but I had it. I carry it, I love it, I trust it, and Mr. Bear will meet it, if Mr. Bear wants some. I do however possess a little more skill than the average person, so I'd probably operate a little smarter, making it work. Besides, I'm a hunter, I generally try to see them first anyway. So, for someone like me, it's adequate; for someone who is not outdoors oriented, what would work? Maybe Nothing. It's a skill not a tool that makes you win. Besides I carry a rifle when I hunt. I carry my G20 for Lions, mostly, because lions are more dangerous than bears where I'm from and things that go roar in the night whatever animal gets nasty. I have night sights. Does that revolver have night sights? I didn't think so. The way I'd defend myself from a bear is with intelligence, not just a big stick. The 10mm is a backup, self defense tool, that is there even when your rifle may not be, and the Magnum revolver you are talking about is so heavy, who'd carry it, 24-7? I did go look at a .460 not too long ago, it was $1100 dollars for a revolver, and it was so heavy, when I tried to aim it, I could only hold it on target for a very short time before the weight alone toasted my upper body strength. Then on top of that, it is SOO... loud and kicks so hard that no-one enjoys practicing with it, it's horrible. Now for a woman, it's almost just not even an option.

Chuck Hawks is a full of himself idiot that comes up every now and then. No credentials, no experience, no credibility. The tool even gives himself awards because nobody else will. Read his article on S&W for stunning stupidity and outright misinformation.

On topic, I call anyone who carries a handgun for Alaskan bears lunch, which is what they are destined to be. If carrying one makes you feel good, that's fine. Just be aware that the chances of it actually working are slim to none.

Bob

PENETRATION
I dont want anything expanding and slowing itself down on dangerous game.
If and when time comes that a person HAS to defend themselves in a life and death situation, the HEAVY pistols are light, monster recoil isnt really noticed, and usually they dont even hear it go off.
I work all over the country, and when I am going out in the woods I carry nothing less than a .44 magnum with at a minimum of 240 gr hunting loads.
I feel much better with a keith hardcast.
If I know there is a chance of an encounter I have a 12 ga with slugs, brenneke black magics.
My wife shoots my .44 for fun and is looking at an alaskan as her next purchase.
Bug guns, big HARD projectiles, and most importantly... avoiding having to use them.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

I forgot to mention, I knew a man who was mauled by a bear and I asked him about it, he shot the bear with a .300 win mag, three times, and the bear still put his *** literally this man was in the bears mouth at about the hip, the man I'm speaking of, clearly lived to tell about it. Bear defense is actions going in and going out, it's not this dream that people have where the biggest bear that ever lived, charges without warning and from behind, remember how rare that really is, that being said, a person who is aware of his surroundings can effectively defend himself with a G20, if he needs to climb a tree, or dodge behind his truck in the process, so be it. As I see it, bear defense is a strategy, tactic and skill. You can have a .300 win mag and still get eaten. Once that bear gets on top those long guns are hard to point. Even when that gat is 6 or 7 inches. It's hard.

Snubby bear gats...


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

A man and woman reported that they were hiking Friday evening when the bear emerged from trailside brush and charged the woman, park spokeswoman Kris Fister said in a statement.

The man fired nine rounds from his .45 caliber, semiautomatic pistol at the animal, which then stopped and walked into the brush.

The two reported the shooting to rangers, who restricted access to the Igloo Canyon area for fear that the bear was wounded and dangerous.

On Saturday, rangers found the dead bear about 100 feet from the shooting site.

Park officials are determining the justification for the shooting. It's legal to carry firearms in that area of the park but illegal to discharge them.

And I have seen a cat attack a rottweiler and run it off.
Doesnt mean its a good idea.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

LOL, or that it's going to turn out the same way every time.

After the Bear is through with me and they are gathering my remains, I certainly would not want to be buried with a Glock. I would not even be able to haunt this forum.

I will go down with my S&W 1006 blazing, lead Keith Bullets and all, thank you very much!

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

I tested the idea of the revolver on my girl friend, I found out some profound down falls I would never have forseen with just hypothesis,.. So, here is the story.. a little insight anyway.. I convinced her to carry one for a day, well, to try it. I took her to the hills and I realized quickly that I had to show her EVERYTHING, specific to revolver, she has safety down.. but the techniques specific to revolver or reloading, of pulling a DA trigger (as well as cocking for accuracy if there is time) oh and the safe decocking technique they teach in the NRA, where you place the thumb in the gap, and of the draw and speed loaders, but primarily all else fails type of stuff; this is second nature to me, but to her it was complicated.. she's like you have to do what with your left hand, and what with your right, and what button do I push to get the "thingy out", and by the end of the day she was able to perform the basics, but she almost couldn't pull the trigger back, because the grip was too big, the tip of her finger barely reached, so consequentially she was not strong enough to pull the double action more than about twice, on the third pull she couldn't get the trigger to pull back in DA mode!! I have to admit, it was just not a good fit, also she couldn't draw it fast enough for a charging bear, I tested her by simulating a charging bear, I said pretend I'm a bear, I had her not point at me.. but had her point off another direction with it unloaded as well, I rushed her from a few yards away... just to see if she could draw it, she couldn't get it out of it's holster!! And it's a snapless, kydex holster with very little frictional resistance, but here is what she said at the end of the day.. "can I carry my glock?, I hate that thing it weights me down too much." She took it off and handed it to me, so I gave it back saying no, just try it out, she pushes it back and would not wear it so I said okay. Now guys; What would you prefer, a woman carrying what she wants, or a woman who leaves it in the car, camp, truck etc.. We are talking about women here. They don't seem to like revolvers and now I understand why. This last point kills me though, to my horror, I noticed that she didn't understand that the cylinder had to lock into place.. I did an ops check, pre hike, to my amazement, found out she didn't close the cylinder correctly, she was carrying a non functional firearm because the cylinder was not clicked into place... It was ridiculous what all issues manifested. Keep in mind she never shot a revolver before and is not a gun person. That is why I like the glock, it's almost idiot proof. Almost. At least she was way more proficient with it. Guys don't forget that not all people are gun nuts. I am amazed at how much she proclaimed time and again how much she hated that revolver and it was only a .357MAG, S&W model 520. Not like a .454 casull or, .460 or .500. There are so many things that can go wrong in a bear charge, what happened above was under no stress.

Gotta love these "what if bear attack" threads. Bottom line, carry whatever firearm and ammunition you choose. If it works, you live another day -- if it doesn't...well, we'll be reading about you in the news.

If you're sold on Gold Dot JHPs in a Glock 20 as a bear defense sidearm -- have at it. I'll be carrying a 12 ga. with slugs and a sidearm with the heaviest SOLID bullets available for the particular caliber. I love my 10mm pistols, but I expect I'll be carrying a 44 magnum with 320gr. WFN Hardcast loads as a sidearm. If I did happen to take a 10mm, it would be loaded with the 230gr WFN Hardcast, not some JHP intended for two-legged predators...

Where can I get some of these 320gr. WFN Hardcast loads for my 44?

Check out Natchez Shooters Supply (and I'm sure many others...) look for Cor-Bon Penetrators, .44Mag 320gr - designed especially for this purpose.

I hike a lot. I don't think I have ever seen a person with 12GA. Ever. Who you kidding about always having that on you. I carry a 10mm. Why? because it's easier to carry and realistic. You honestly going to hold your nice wood stocked 12GA in your sweaty hands every time you take a 10 mile hike. At that are you going to carry a heavy Revolver like a .460 or 500 or .454. Yeah, maybe once. Especially on heavily used trails where you encounter other hikers. You going to sleep with your 12GA in your sleeping bag too. It's just easier to tote a Glock 20, therefor people will more likely carry it. Carry a glock 20, some pepper spray, and a Sure Fire Flash light. And you have the bear essentials.

I hike a lot. I don't think I have ever seen a person with any 12GA. Ever. Who are you kidding? I carry a 10mm. Why? because it's easier to carry and realistic and I don't feel uneasy about it. Are you honestly going to hold your nice wood stocked 12GA in your sweaty hands every time you take a 10 mile hike. At that are you going to carry a heavy Revolver like a .44Mag (.44Auto) or .460 or 500 or .454. Yeah, maybe once. Especially on heavily used trails where you encounter other hikers. You going to sleep with your 12GA in your sleeping bag too. It's just easier to tote a Glock 20 and it's more practical, therefore people will more likely carry it. Carry a glock 20, some pepper spray, and a Sure Fire Flash light. And you have the bear essentials.

10MM = ~same muzzle energy as a .22 Hornet....Have fun!

The increase of velocity of a projectile increases it's energy exponentially. That is a good point. Is that what you are trying to say? But don't forget ballistic co-efficients. A .22 Hornet is a poor caliber because it's not efficient for what it is. A 22LR is very efficient. Plus a 22 hornet is a 35 grain slug, a 10mm is a 180 grain slug on average. No, it's not even the same ball park in stopping power because a Hornet has to be shot from a very long barrel to obtain that energy. You are comparing rifles to pistols.