By the time I went through the academy the use of the sap etc was considered barbaric and abusive. Although I never understood how the bosses could find a beating with an Asp somehow better than a sap or a mag lite or other improvised weapon. Was the sap really that brutal? Did it do that much damage to the perp? And honestly, how many people that took the beating didn't deserve at least a little bit of what they got?

A. It hurt like hell.
B. The cop was having a bad day, and decided I should, too.
I was where I had every right to be, and I wasn't doing anything my grandmother would have disapproved of.

The sap was disappearing even when I was in LE. I carried one for 13 years and can only think of a couple of times when I used it. The times I used it was in a crowd scene with a drunk and mouthy individual who was asking for a fight.

I had a small flat one called a slapper and that was how I used it. In each case, I "palmed" it and whacked a guy along side the head when his mouth overloaded his mind.

To those around it looked like I slapped him a good one on the side of the head with an open hand, but it seemed to get the guy's attention and shut his mouth. In each case an arrest was made and we had the full support of the bystanders in our removing the individual from the scene.

That was a different time and the police were not automatically seen as the bad guy.

I carried a Mag-lite, but never considered using it for anything but a flash light. It was too big and heavy for use against a person.

I used a riot baton on one occasion against a guy with a pool cue.

That incident led to the choosing of "Iggy" as my handle on the net, but that's another story.

Too many years ago to admit, police trousers all had a narrow, deep pocket in the back around the wallet pocket called a "blackjack pocket". I always carried one but never used it.
Even in those days, the sap or blackjack was nicknamed "the butcher's tool". The spring loaded lead, if used on a person's head would cause very deep, long cuts as the leather covering slid over the skull. A night stick would also cut, but only at the impact point.
Anyone who hit an arrestee and split their head open would, automatically, be assigned to hospital guard duty. You learned, quickly, that soft tissue or rib strikes were much better and not nearly as messy.

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In God We Trust

Started in '73 when all issue trousers had the sap pocket, in the southeast anyway. By the early '80s sap pocket was gone but sap itself was still authorized, just stuck it in the the RR pocket, yes it was a PITA .

Preferred the bell shaped blackjack myself over the slapjack. The flat slapjack was promoted as producing less cuts when used against the miscreants noggin, which it probably did, but only when the flat made contact. When the edge made contact, which often occured during a knock-down-drag-out, it cut worse, a lot worse.

Noggin wasn't my preferred target anyway, in fact I only used it on scumbags heads a couple times. A good shot to the collar bone, shoulder or forearm and they wouldn't be using that hand against me, during that scuffle anyway ...

Funny, but when the sap was authorized, early expandable batons were specifically not authorized. Personally took to the ASP myself when they came out though, but I was already pre-disposed to the correct impact areas, and I learned to use the ASP well...very well .

There was a time in the late '70s and into the '80s that the police nunchucha became popular, in South Florida anyway. I'm convinced they whacked more cops than badguys before fading away...

What's that saying about sausage? It's great to eat but not something you want to watch being made. Unfortunately folks don't like to see what is often required to enforce the laws they want enforced. Impact weapons aren't always pretty.

Somehow, I get the feeling that there is a lot more to this story that we're not being told. It appears you were walking down the street and were pounded silly for no reason.

I never used a "blackjack" but carried and used a slapper for years. They were very effective but one had to be careful to strike w/ the flat part and not the edge. Then we became a kinder, gentler police department and they disallowed their use-I don't know--around the late 80's??

Any impact weapon hurts and is capable of doing damage. We wouldn't want to hurt any citizens, would we?

In answer to the first question, no one I ever saw used one unless it was necessary. The next question is always: was it really necessary?

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... a little behind in my work

A sap is just a tool...Just like an ASP, to be used with discretion.

I carry the ASP now...Great for breakin' windows in cars, front doors and the like.

Never hit anyone that didn't ask for it...Repeatedly

Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Most of the officers in my day carried slapjacks instead of the round blackjack with a spring, which could severly maim or kill a perpetrator. It seemed when I needed the unit, it had come out of my pocket in the car seat. I do not remember ever hitting someone with one. Now the flashlight or nightstick is another story. I started in 1973 and it's good to see tasers,stunguns,and other tools of the trade to bring someone into compliance.

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J. Mark McCarver

I've used both the flat sap and the blackjack with the leather covered bell shaped head. I put a dozen very bloody gashes in the head of an LSD crazed college student one night with the blackjack, didn't faze him. I used the flat sap as described by others above, put a ringing in their ears and knocked them senseless for the few seconds it took to get them under control and in cuffs. I've used the metal flashlights in the same manner, but they tend to put gashes in the head.
I much prefer the debilitating effect of pepper spray. Less muss, less fuss, and a lot less blood.

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John

Ideally in theroy, saps, blackjacks and billies were used on the knuckles, wrists, elbows and knees. In practice they were used almost anywhere including those points. They could leave a nasty gash when contacting the skull. I won't say how I know this.

I still have a slapper and 2 pairs of sap gloves in the basement haven't used them in years. Right now i don't think it would be entirely legal to do so. Now it is ASP batons, Pepper Spray and tasers

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Stan

I had both the round, spring loaded one and the flat "slapper."

I used both more than my nightstick. Our nightsticks, when I started towards the last of 1968, were wooden and they would break over the suspect, leaving me with a handle and preparing to reach for my revolver.

I knocked two men out with the flat one, but, to my surprise, found out that, when they regained consciousness a few moments (or a minute, hard to tell) later, they apparently didn't know I'd won and continued to fight at the point they'd been when I hit them. I hadn't had time to cuff them before they were all over me again.

Most of these were in bar fights. In my town, there were several bars, one in particular, where they'd fight like the cowboys in a saloon in the movies. They wouldn't stop when the police got there, but often turned their attentions on us. It made perfect sense to me then, and still does, to stop the threat as quickly and efficiently as I could.

Even after we got the heavy plastic/nylon sticks, I still carried my flat slapper since it was less obtrusive than the stick. When the Kel-lites came out, I got a C cell one and replaced both the stick and the slapper with it.

We never had any training with impact weapons in those days, other than riot training where we used them as bayonets. We didn't know not to hit a suspect in the head and, even if I had been so trained, never was in a fight where I had the time to pick a particular target to strike.

I don't hold with using an impact weapon on someone passively resisting, though I guess I am in the minority there, but when the person is trying to at least beat the devil out of me, I don't much care what I have to do to stop him.

Bob

I have seen of late where some departments are disallowing the ASP when they issue tasers, thus getting away from any impact weapon at all.

My department considered this, but we didn't go there. You have to be certified to carry the ASP and/or the taser.

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- Change it back -

Actually, I carried and used a "yawara" for many, many years. I was taught to use it by a Karate 7th dan. It is extremely effective and, most of all, unobtrusive. "God...why is he yelling like that ?? The cop only has ahold of his thumb "

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In God We Trust

My tool of choice (and the departments) was a 6 C cell maglite. Not too big around but still had the heft. I lived on night shift, so it as my constant companion when I got out of my cruiser.

Never hit perps in the head, but the shoulders, forearms and knees were fair game if they pushed the limit. This was back in the late 1980's.

Poor guys now cannot even speak harshly as a rule, but God help the perp that pulls a gun on one of them; they will attain ambient temp.

Back in the bad old days when I was a rookie, many of the old timers carried a device known as "the claw." The claw was about 6 inches long. It consisted of a T handle. Beneath that was a spring loaded collar. Below that were two curved spring loaded, steel claws about 4" long. To employ the claw the officer placed the T handle in the palm of his hand, pulled up on the collar and the claws sprung apart. Then he would grab a wrist, forearm or elbow and give the handle a twist. Then the biggest and baddest turned meek instantly. This tool put the "come" in come along. By the mid seventies the days of the claw were over.

Carried always, used seldom. I preferred the straight stick or a Maglite. Kubaton for passive resisters and close-in work.

Just an impression, but based on what I read and see lately, the Tasers are being used in a lot of situations where we would never have considered using slappers, blackjacks or any other impact weapon 30 years ago. Saw video this afternoon of a very vocal and uncooperative, but hardly threatening granny motorist being Tased.

I would never have taken a stick or a sap to a little old lady unless she was trying to knife me, and maybe not then, but it took this officer about 15 seconds from the time she got out of the car to resort to electroshock therapy.

Looks like the sap, the stick, the hands and persuasion have all been replaced by the Taser.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I too carried mine all the time on duty but never had to strike anyone, of course the "perps" were not intent on killing us all back when. I'm glad my time has passed for you young guys are dealing with the worst of the worst, they have no remorse for their deeds. Be safe!

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

I aways kept the sap away from banging the bad guys in the head with it. I went through the US Park Police Sap School in 1973. I liked it for a brical stun or at sensitive pressure points. I also like the side handle baton and the ASP.
I just didn't try to kill the folks with them unless it was a lethal force situation, ie I had a BG choking one of my Rangers and was on top of him. I was afraid to shoot, I was afraid the round would stike a bone and deflect down, so I took a swing for the left field fence with my night stick, split his head from the top of the nose to the top of his head. He was out on bond for sexual assalting his girlfriends five year old boy. Tried him in Federal Court for assault on a Federal Officer and then testified to his violent ways during the State Court trial on the Sexaul Assault. Spent lots of time in everybody's prison with Bubba for a sweetheart.....
Our issue trousers had sap pockets....

Rule 303

Funny how TASERs came out in the late 60s and early 70s but were equated with Cattle Prods used on the Civil Rights Folks, but slaps and saps were considered just fine to use on the bad folks. Now we all know about TASERs and OC.
My, Oh, My, how times change.

Rule 303

That thing sounds brutal. I am looking at that as someone who would have to be "trained" in using it i.e. having to have it used against me first. I know that pa-paw said in his day (1959-1993) he could just line up and hit a homerun off someone's skull and nobody would say a word about it. He worries about current LEOs cause of all the use of force continums, having to use pressure point control etc. He was the original fan of less than leathal weaponry, just very crude technology (an old axe handle). He never carried his gun outside of his car unless he knew the other person had a gun too.

I never had need to use it, but got nightstick training as an Air Force cop. We were told to hit someone in the shins, as many persons were considered too thick-headed for an effective blow there.

I once worked a Presidential security detail, at the USAF academy, with their force, our OSI, and Secret Service agents. Some of the guys at the Academy had lead-loaded nightsticks, which one told me worked quite well.

I was always concerned that my stick might break in use. I thought in terms of using the point, if possible, on the solar plexus of an offender. We were trained to do that.

BTW, I had little faith in the .38 revover ammo, but our local office bought some .38 High Velocity ammo with unit funds. I carried that with more confidence. Still wish that we'd had hollowpoint Plus P's. Thankfully, I never drew my .38 except when searching for a bad guy. Never fired it, other than on the range.

T-Star

I was hit once in the ribs, not pounded silly. Believe me, once was enough.
While I have the highest respect for law enforcement officers in general, you'll have to take my word for it that sometimes a sadist can sneak through.
I was a union man in the wrong place at the wrong time.

We learned a technique for use with the LAPD baton called 3 from the ring. We were advised if 3 from the ring didn't work, use six from the holster.

Fortunately I never had to try it on anyone.

What was the 3 from the ring technique?

No saps when I came in, we had the wooden baton,to much of a PITA to carry, especially when you had to foot chase. I had (still have) a 3 D cell maglite, it was used very effectively as a non lethal weapon a few times, and it was tossed a few time also at runners to take their legs out. It shows the use & abuse, and still works fine.

Started LEO in 1962. Used the "Convoy" Blackjack which was 16oz of round lead head mounted on a steel spring and the entire blackjack was black leather covered. Used it along with a five cell flashlight, and a wooden "Nightstick". Yes the "Convoy" did some awesome damage to a BG. As the years went by the wooden Nightstick was replaced by "Asp' and PR-24. The five cell flashlight was replace by the "Maglite". I carried a "Convoy", Don Hume Border Holster, S&W Model 29, Speedloaders and a 12 round cartridge loop slide until 1999 when I had to accept a Sig 229, SSIII holster, and Taser. I still have my "Real Cop" equipment.

It was a sudden and aggressive series of moves with strikes to the face,throat, and groin in rapid order.

Nuff Sed.

Pepper Spray is not effective 100%
and guess what? Neither is the Taser!

When I started in 1976 a few guys still carried the spring loaded blackjack, and a few the sap. Some guys carried the wood baton.

I carried a 3C cell flash light, day and night. But the main non, well semi non lethal method widely used at the time was the choke hold.

If done right it worked great and most of the time left no bruises.
There were some people that were near impossible to choke out, and we did kill a few, that fought violently, mainly in latter years when cocaine became more popular.

I once got a Commendation from a fella I choked out. He told the jail Sgt. how I had choked him out, not hurting him at all when he deserved to have his head caved in....

As the choke hold was being phased out, the straight nightstick was phased in for us, first in plastic, they broke in use, then later in aluminium.

The side handle PR 24 became avialable but I never liked it, never used one.

I used the choke hold and the straight stick to good effect when ever it was necessary.

My last few years on the job I carried a Titanium ASP. It was handy as you could use it in close unextended, and then flick it open if necessary. It was very convientant to carry on your belt.
I still kept my straight aluminium stick in the vehicle for those bar brawls.


I carried pepperspray, but never used it as it can easily effect the user as well.
I trained on the new stuff like Pepperball Guns and Tasers, but never used them in the field. The nice thing about them is that you can use them from a distance.

The Three From the Ring.... I remember it well...

The claw really hurt if tightened down. We had a Sergeant, when I first started, that was really an expert with it. He could draw it from his pocket, grab the bad guy's wrist and it was all over.

I tried it, but just couldn't get it right. The Sergeant tried to teach me, but the bad guys kept moving their wrists and I'd miss. Sadly, the bad guys didn't (miss that is).

If we ever meet, I'll show you the scars on my lip where the bad guys didn't miss me. I got so many scars that I decided I'd be better off as a lawyer. No more scars since then.

Bob

I did 36 years on the streets in a "large city" used the straight wooden baton, side handle baton[both plastic and metal], ASP and the sap with a spring loaded handle. The ones I put my trust in were the wooden baton and the ASP. The sap was messy when used and not normally very effective.

Its been over 30 years since I got in a tussel on the streets. (Moved to the DA's office and then the Magistrates Bench, and now retired.) The convoy was in my pocket, but the walkie-talkie was in my hand. That walkie-talkie never did work very well after that, but the defendant became very compliant!

Still got a "convoy" in the drivers side door pockets of my car and pickup, and a slap-jack stuffed in the umpire equipment tray in the car trunk. You never know when they might be useful! (Sometime coaches/fans just don't know how to exhibit sportsmanship.)

I had a slapper and almost used it once. I stopped the swing. My left hand had already locked in on his throat and slammed him into a concrete wall, this convicted murderer thought he could escape through me. Poor planning on his part. I saw a D battery 6 cell light used once, it leaves a big gash. Before Maglites many LEOs used Kel-lights. Mine is a Kel-light 7 C cell unit. It is still functional after 30 years.

Ah, few things beat the outright thrill of a parent following you to the locker room to argue a call 2 inning ago. Had one dad come out of the stands and get in one of my umpires faces when I was supervising one night, that was exciting lol. I had never considered carrying weapons into the ball park with me though lol. I think it was a paranoid fear that I would end up using it lol. Nice job with the walkie-talkie though, improvised weapons have a place. You don't always have time to get your hands on the weapon of choice with TSHTF.

I had a flat sap early on and never used it. I took to the PR-24 side handle and never looked back. I hated to give it up when we went to ASPs. Come to think about it....both are within 5 ft. of me right now. :-) ............ Big Cholla

The sap and blackjack developed a PR problem, despite having their uses. They became the "assault weapons" of impact tools.

Recently, metal flashlights have come under attack. LAPD, to appease the madding crowd, banned Streamlights (and other large metal lights) after one incident where one was (arguably) misused.

The 9th Circuit has greatly limited where Tasers may be deployed, based on review of a case where (arguably) a Taser was misused.

And so it continues...

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Trust, but verify - R. Reagan

As my con. law instructor said, the 9th circuit court lives out in legal la la land and by no means should the rest of us pay too much attention to what they said about anything.

I used a sap and had a special pocket sew in pants to carry it. It hurt big time, made a fight short and sweet LOL. Was alway told not to hit the head or hands because it can be seen in court LOL. Most of the time I would hit down on the shoulder with ease and that took them down crying in pain. It was to easy to get carried away with, but make life easy on the fist LOL. I did use a 6 cell "C" battery light on a guy that had hold of my fellow officer and it took 10 stiches to close up the hole in the back of his head.

I have used none of the above in a long time. But the ones I did use were in confrontations where some drunk or drugged up idiot were seriously threatening my life or general well being. I have used a sap, (I had one that was 15 inches long that the sap pocket in my pants only covered 12 inches of) a convoy blackjack, a lead loaded hickory nightstick, a lead loaded fiberglass something or other, and a couple of other sorta unauthorized things. All of these were many years ago.

One of those was a large bed post that had carved into it "walk softly but carry a big stick." It had been taken away from someone a long time ago and left in the desk sergeant's office where I was stationed that night. An officer had brought a guy in to be booked and the guy knocked the officer out as soon as he took the cuffs off of him. The guy wanted some of me and came over the desk. I grabbed the bed post and after a few minutes and an ambulance ride for two it was over. The other was a brick I discovered while being drowned in a mudhole behind a bar. It worked so good that I thought about carrying one on duty. I couldn't find a brick holster so I let that idea go.

What worked then doesn't work now. Court decisions, political correctness, bloodthirsty lawyers, department policy and lots of other stuff have changed the picture. The only thing that hasn't changed is that if you can show your life is truly endangered and you have to do something really drastic, depending on what part of the country you work in, you'll usually find some support. I still carry a mag light. A fellow ask me a few months ago on a traffic stop why I was carrying a flashlight in the middle of the day and I replied "you never know when an eclipse might occur."

An old leather spring-loaded blackjack (cir. 1930's?), chain pincher (?), and Mattatuck handcuffs.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Charlie:
Did you ever know anyone that used a 18" length of water hose, plugged one end with a empty CO2 cartridge, and poured melted lead into the other end to make a "Baton"?
Makes a "BAD ***" Baton.

Awww, the "old Days" When I became a LEO in 1965, Saps were a part of the "equipment". The "style" of sap varied & was the "personal" choice of the officer ( if I recall correctly the "slapper" was most popular ).We still had the "sap pocket" in our pants & Many ( not all) LEOs carried. I did not.

My "choice" was a very fine pair of "sap" gloves.( Kid skin )
1. These had the "lead" on the "back" of the glove.& were ALWAYS used to "slap" (trust me getting "slapped" by these got the BGs attention.
2. They looked like "dress" gloves.( not as "bulky looking" as the "modern versions" do.) I carried them tucked into my "duty belt. When I went in on a call that I felt that they might be needed, I donned them.
3. The gloves allowed me to use my hands "normally" (grasping,using my "stick", "big flashlight" (preferred), my gun etc.
4. PR

Items 3 & 4 were why I opted for the "gloves" instead of the "sap.

Are they "for today" ?? NOPE. Today. if even "bruise" a BG, you & the Dept.are in "deep trouble. A different World & Time.

The Proffesor

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RSO- Instr.

I had a pair of those sap gloves but never had the time to put them on when I needed them.

I also carried a pick handle in the trunk of my car. It was for breaking windshields and prying on wrecked cars mostly.

I came upon an drunk at an intersection in town one day. He was standing in the middle of the street with a tire iron looking to go to war. I called the city to let them know what was going on. I got out my pick handle, but fortunately the city guys showed up in force and took over the situation.

I quite happily directed traffic while they dealt with the drunk.

All of my uniform trousers were ordered with the optional sap pocket and 98% of the time there was a sap there. I was trained by an old beat cop in its use, preferred was to use to jab solar plexus, stomach, rib cage on either side of torso. Second, use the flat side against any area from the fingers to the elbow. Third, use edge only on large muscle areas. Forth, never hit anyone above the shoulders unless your life is in grave danger, as the chances your blows will cause death are way to high.

Thankfully I only had to use my sap 3 –4 times in all the years I carried one. Often the sight of a cop drawing a sap was enough to make stupid people regain their senses.

Now sap gloves were a different matter, and no I will not discuss my use of them.

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Always Stay Strong!

I'm still workin', so I ain't got nothin to say......

I carried a flat black jack(sap) for years until the times changed when the PR24 and ASP age came. A few of the other guys had the round end sap but they hurt to sit on in the car while in your black jack pocket. I have hit people with and thrown at people a metal maglite flashlight, hit people with the flat black jack and punched people with sap gloves. The sap gloves pack a wallop. A guy committed an armed robbery at a gas station and I found him as he was fleeing the scene. One shot with the glove ended his day. Actually three days because he spent the next three days in the hospital having surgery to his face. The ***** did file complaints on me for assaulting him but nothing ever came of it. Those days the old timers worked IA and would cover you ***, Thank God!!!!

I started in '81, and they were still in use by some (though probably not most) officers. I never knew anyone who carried the spring-loaded type with the weighted end. Everyone who carried them had the flat leather sap, of varying lengths. The longer ones seemed more "effective." I had one of the shorted ones, so it fit well in my back pocket if I had a pair of trousers without the sap pocket. (Although in '81, the Kel Light was pretty popular, and this became a "flashlight pocket" for the C-cell models!) Although I only used mine a few times, it was pretty handy when I did- once, when a drunk managed to grab my baton, and another when a drunk grabbed me and I couldn't get to my baton. Grabbing that little sap got me right back in control of the situation!

The department I ended up on in '86 prohibited them very shortly thereafter. The chief's rationale was that carrying them was "not the image we wanted to present." Personally, I disagree- most people would have no idea what they are, especially if they were discreetly carried, and so it would have no effect on our "image." And, for those who knew what they were, it would present the image that we don't mess around!!! (Any perp that's ever been on the business end doesn't soon forget it. Even the drunkest idiots seem to remember it when they sober up!) They were a great back-up weapon in close quarters, and when you had a bunch of coppers piling on trying to handcuff an uncooperative suspect, they were a lot easier to deploy that a baton or a PR-24. (On a side note, I never found the PR-24 particularly practical. When we carried straight sticks, I carried a short one with the metal ball on the end. When a suspect refused to put his hands behind his back, that little ball properly applied between the shoulder blades made it an almost involuntary reaction to comply!)

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LEO since 1981.

Oh, almost forgot one of the best uses...
They were an incredible door-knocker! A few good raps on the door, and EVERYONE inside knew who was at the door- no one could say they didn't hear you! (And, it saved your knuckles.)

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LEO since 1981.

Thats funny....they did make the BEST door knocker on earth!!!!!!!!!!!