Handgun Stopping Power???

Marshall 357

Marshall 357

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
887
Reaction score
37
Location
Michigan
The Federal 125 gr .357 Magnum is rated as a 96% one shot stop round.Just wondering how can a 125gr 357 magnum have more Stopping power than a 240gr 44 magnum rated at I think 87% ? Might sound like a dumb question but I would like to know.
 
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
Marshall 357 said:
The Federal 125 gr .357 Magnum is rated as a 96% one shot stop round.Just wondering how can a 125gr 357 magnum have more Stopping power than a 240gr 44 magnum rated at I think 87% ? Might sound like I dumb question but I would like to know.
Click to expand...

Different stats from a different sample group.

Depending on what stats you use, even OO buck and 30-06 aren't 100% one stop rounds.
 
Not dumb at all, just points out the problem with anecdotal colection of data such as the Marshall and Sanow "statistics."

I teach statistics, which is a math discipline with definite rules about data samples and errors of estimates. The data on street shoots, while extremely interesting and valuable, do not pass muster on using the numbers as absolutely accurate.
The sample size on shootings with .44 magnum is very low, and does not take into account multiple shootings or where the bullets hit. We would say that statistically the two numbers for .357 and .44 are essentially the same.

Like the polls on political races, small differences are often statistical "noise."
 
Last edited:
it may also point to the legacy designed function of the rounds in question.
357 was designed for law enforcement as an upgrade to the wimpy 38 special. 125 grains is on the light side of the 357 spectrum which trades penetration for rapid expansion.
44 magnum is a purebred hunter designed to bringeth down the hammer of Thor upon mid to large size game where the typical loading of 240 is designed to favor penetration.
Im my research the 240 grain in a target of human dimensions tends to be through and gone before it gets into its best work.
200 grains on the other hand .... I'd like to see a 357 match that meat grinder.
 
OKFC05 said:
Not dumb at all, just points out the problem with anecdotal colection of data such as the Marshall and Sanow "statistics."

I teach statistics, which is a math discipline with definite rules about data samples and errors of estimates. The data on street shoots, while extremely interesting and valuable, do not pass muster on using the numbers as absolutely accurate.
The sample size on shootings with .44 magnum is very low, and does not take into account multiple shootings or where the bullets hit. We would say that statistically the two numbers for .357 and .44 are essentially the same.

Like the polls on political races, small differences are often statistical "noise."
Click to expand...

Exactly. (Not precisely, but exactly...) Well said!
 
Simple, Marshall and Sanow didn't really know what they were doing. Ed Sanow is the guy that wrote at length about how bad 147gr JHP was in a 9mm, claiming that it wouldn't even cycle the slide. A patently false assertion, and incredibly easy to test, yet he suggested using even NATO ball instead of the 147gr JHP.

A little over 20 years ago the FBI issued what is still arguably the best work on the subject. To keep it simple, one wants adequate penetration to reach vital organs. This is necessary to reliably disrupt the central nervous system. That's one way to "stop". Another is for someone to run out of blood. Physically, that's about it. Thus pentration is good, and once you achieve that, then expansion to create the biggest hole.

Energy transfer is generally not considered a primary means of causing a "stop".

There *may* be a sweet spot circa 1250 to 1450 fps where upon circa 9mm projectiles in the 124/125 grain weight class do begin to work rather well.

Humans are like roaches, hard to kill and quick to adapt. Nothing will be 100 percent.
 
My first centerfire handgun was a beautiful S&W M-39 9m/m that I bought brand new when I was around 19 back in 1980, and I loved that gun and it was accurate, reliable, had a great feel. But then I started reading in all the magazines and Keith, Cooper, and other gunwriters would act like you might as well throw rocks at someone as use a 9 m/m and a gun needs to be a .45 ACP or .44 Special to have signifigant stopping power. One shot was all that would be needed from a big bore to end the fight, but anyone using a .38 or nine would have to fire many rounds and still probably not have the desired effect. Cooper admitted the .357 was an O.K. stopper, IF fired from a long barrel, but it was still inferior to his beloved fourty-five auto. I listened to their wisdom and sold my M-39 and I'm a lot more skeptical now about the experts and their facts and figures.
 
FWIW, Elmer considered the .357 to be an adequate manstopper.

Shot placement is everything and it is impossible to overstress that point. No amount of velocity, caliber, bullet weight, or expansion can make up for poor shot placement.
 
One shot stop percentage is a shooter's statistic, not a caliber statistic. Just because there were multiple shots doesn't mean it wasn't one shot that did the job. It may not have been the first shot. A BB to the Adam's apple at 480 fps is capable of acheiving a one shot stop.
 
Any comments about caliber, shot placement and such are speculative. I have been on the scene of many shootings and saw what happened to whom. I have seen people bleed out from a .22 wound in the thigh and I have seen people walking around after being hit in the face with a .357 from a foot away. I have photos of a man shot directly between the eyes with a .44 mag and lives today with a bad facial scar (and only spent four hrs in the ER after the shooting.

When the man upstairs calls B-15 and that is your number, you are history. Until then, you are just lucky.

Shooting targets is fine for practice but that is all it is, just practice. Substitute the targets for a 6', 220 pound man shooting at you first from 20 feet away and your practice shots just went out the window. Been there, done that, wore the hat and bought the t-shirt. Most of the time, a person gets shot at before he can return fire. This puts a good guy at a disadvantage up front. If LEO knew who was going to pull a gun and immediately open fire, they would not be as many shot as currently are now. We cannot shoot until we are met with deadly force first. Walking up on a front porch of a home does not justify having a sidearm drawn and aimed. A man opening a front door with gun in hand is a situation for which there is no immediate action plan.

Remember that an armed bad guy knows what his intentions are, how far he is willing to go in an effort to achieve his goals while the good guy has to handle things after the fact.

Calibers are important. I personally carry a .45 and feel comfortable. Would I use a .22, 9mm or such? Yes, if that was all I had at the time. I have witnessed a shot from a .45 in the leg from 75 feet drop, but not fatal to a fleeing felon. The desired effect is to stop someone, not kill someone. The lighter calibers seem to take more shots to stop but there is no telling how many shots any gun will use before the stopping takes place.
 
Last edited:
cp1969 said:
FWIW, Elmer considered the .357 to be an adequate manstopper.

Shot placement is everything and it is impossible to overstress that point. No amount of velocity, caliber, bullet weight, or expansion can make up for poor shot placement.
Click to expand...

cept for HE and incendiary type rounds.:D
 
Farmer17 said:
My first centerfire handgun was a beautiful S&W M-39 9m/m that I bought brand new when I was around 19 back in 1980, and I loved that gun and it was accurate, reliable, had a great feel. But then I started reading in all the magazines and Keith, Cooper, and other gunwriters would act like you might as well throw rocks at someone as use a 9 m/m and a gun needs to be a .45 ACP or .44 Special to have signifigant stopping power. One shot was all that would be needed from a big bore to end the fight, but anyone using a .38 or nine would have to fire many rounds and still probably not have the desired effect. Cooper admitted the .357 was an O.K. stopper, IF fired from a long barrel, but it was still inferior to his beloved fourty-five auto. I listened to their wisdom and sold my M-39 and I'm a lot more skeptical now about the experts and their facts and figures.
Click to expand...

In circa Vietnam war issues of Guns and Ammo that I read (1967 and 1968) Jeff Cooper actually had good things to say about Smith and Wesson Model 39. He also liked the Model 58 revolver, claiming it to be the perfect thing for those "still wedded to the revolver concept".

Circa 1980, Cooper would have a good point about the .45 ACP. 9mm JHP technology wasn't exactly mature whereas .45 FMJ has stayed the same for a long, long time. Since a 1911 had the same capacity as the old 39s, eh...

These days it is more complicated.
 
GatorFarmer said:
In circa Vietnam war issues of Guns and Ammo that I read (1967 and 1968) Jeff Cooper actually had good things to say about Smith and Wesson Model 39. He also liked the Model 58 revolver, claiming it to be the perfect thing for those "still wedded to the revolver concept".

Circa 1980, Cooper would have a good point about the .45 ACP. 9mm JHP technology wasn't exactly mature whereas .45 FMJ has stayed the same for a long, long time. Since a 1911 had the same capacity as the old 39s, eh...

These days it is more complicated.
Click to expand...

yeah "complicated" is a good term for it.
throw in the rise in obesity today and all that authoritative research from the good old days becomes less valid.
With a whale blubber layer to deal with before it can even get to the stopping zone ... this fact may require a revision of all firearm thinking.
even fashion trends can influence ideal bullet design
 
What was the OP's question... ? :D

"Numbers is numbers," as they say. If the facts are correctly reported, the numbers are what they are. But there is such a limited number of shootings and the surrounding circumstances vary so enormously it hardly seems worth even discussing this round or that. We might as well just sit in our armchairs and come to our own conclusions. I doubt there is any way to make any sort of mathematical sense of what goes on with humans and gunshot wounds.
 
I'm sure that every caliber has failed to stop the bad guy at one point in time. I like to compare two incidents, Lee Harvey Oswald and Wiley Lynn. Lee Harvey Oswald was dropped dead by a single .38 Special, 158 grain lead bullet that took out his spleen, diaphragm, kidney, and a couple of ateries. Wiley Lynn was shot four times at point blank range by Oklahoma Bureau of Investigations Agent Crockett Long. Wiley was able to draw his .38 and shoot Crockett Long four times at the same time he shot Wiley Lynn four times with his Smith .44 Special. More than one of those .44's caught Lynn's vitals. Crockett Long lay on the floor and died an hour later, Wiley staggered out the door, walked across the street and died the next day.
The moral of the story, there isn't a handgun caliber or rifle caliber or shotgun gauge made that has every single time put down the game or man in a fight. Shoot the one that you can accurately hit the target with accuracy. If its a .38, .357, .44 .45 than so be it.
 
cp1969 said:
FWIW, Elmer considered the .357 to be an adequate manstopper.

Shot placement is everything and it is impossible to overstress that point. No amount of velocity, caliber, bullet weight, or expansion can make up for poor shot placement.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but if I had to stop a bear... :/
The .357 mag is mighty fine, but the sheer brute 240 grain horsepower
of the .44 mag is much more likely to get a bear's attention. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

AugieTN
Rant: Stoplight Stopping Distance
2 3 4
Replies
73
Views
2K
SMSgt
SMSgt
W
dan Wesson and smith & wesson
Replies
4
Views
400
StrawHat
StrawHat
madmikeb
Smith & Wesson "Gun Cabinet"
Replies
9
Views
678
dben002
dben002
Faulkner
Daisy and the whitetail deer
Replies
16
Views
788
clipper1
C
Faulkner
Daisy on goose patrol
2
Replies
25
Views
861
Faulkner
Faulkner

Latest posts

Back
Top