Dear Smith and Wesson Forum. i have a question about world war one Pilot handguns what kind of handguns were issued to World war one pilots? any and all help in answering this would be greatly appreciated sincerely and respectfully mg357 a proud member of the Smith and Wesson Forum.

Well, at that time it was the Army Air Corps (the Air Force wasn 't created until after WW II) so the pilots were Army officers and the standard pistol of the U.S. Army was the 1911 Colt.

S&W and Colt both made large frame revolvers in 45 ACP for the military when Colt could not produce enough 1911s. As far as I know these three were the only officially issued sidearms in WW I. That is, assuming pilots were actually issued pistols. I do not know for a fact that they were.

I heard once that French pilots were given a revolver to shoot themselves in case their planes burst into flames from enemy gunfire. Better than burning to death, I guess.

Back then it was not uncommon for officers to carry a personal sidearm (recall George Patton's guns) so in theory you may have seen any type of handgun on a pilot's belt.

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No life story has happy end.

[QUOTE=SaxonPig;135676335]
I heard once that French pilots were given a revolver to shoot themselves in case their planes burst into flames from enemy gunfire. Better than burning to death, I guess.
QUOTE]

This concept was demonstrated in the movie Flyboys.

Gruesome!

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Jon

Well, not exactly. When the US entered the War in 1917 Army aviators were part of the Aviation Section of the Signal Corps. In May, 1918 this became the Army Air Service. The US Army Air Corps was not created until 1926, eight years after the end of the War.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Also they literaly had a warning sign for pilots to not wear spurs in the airplanes as some of these guys were recruited from the cavary! What guns would officers had from the cavary in those days? It`s possible some even carried colt saa`s. My guess is probley some carried those colt da armys in .38 colt, holdovers from the philipines and spanish american war as they were still the lighter and less bulkey than 1911`s and 1917`s in S&W`s and colts. Sure wish I would have asked one world war one pilot I knew in the 1960s! I suppose there must be knowledge somewhere on the net if it was goggeled.

I read in an account of the final exploits of Frank Luke, "the Arizona Balloon Buster", second ranking American Ace of WWI, that may be of interest here. Ever heard of Luke Air Force Base? Yeah, that Luke.

After shooting down (setting ablaze is more like it) three German observation balloons, Luke's plane was disabled and he had to crash land. On the way down it is said he strafed German infantry with his machine guns. IIRC, this is a quote from the article: "He died in a hail of gunfire, blazing away at the German soldiers with his .45."

I always assumed that was a Colt Model of 1911 but IIRC, the article was not specific.

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You're shy a few manners.

OG- That makes sense as they started out as forward observers and air combat developed later.

But my point was that they were part of the Army and not a separate branch as the Air Force is now.

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No life story has happy end.

The first use of airplanes were durring the poncho villa campaign. 6 J-2 jenneys were assigned from the army siginal corp. All of them crashed of failed mechanicly. That was in 1916.

The British Royal Flying Corps were issued Webleys, Colt 1911s and Smith & Wesson N frame revolvers, all in .455.

Fixed it for you... of course, aircraft were used in WWI as early as 1914.

It was a sad fact that American aviators had to fly French aircraft in WWI. At the outbreak of the war, all combatant countries fielded planes that were hardly better than the Wright Brothers' invention. The unforgiving competition of aerial combat caused them to evolve quickly and by 1917 the airplane had been transformed into a real fighting machine. By the time it entered the war, the country where the airplane had been invented was so hopelessly behind in aircraft development that not one aircraft of US design saw service before the war ended.

Of course, the British 1911s were chambered for the .455 Webley Automatic.

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You're shy a few manners.

My speculation concerning that quote (and that's all it is) is that the weapon was probably a 1911. I think the common slang parlance of the day probably suggests "blazing away with his .45" as a reference to the 1911 auto, rather than any of the issued revolvers. But, that's just my interpretation. I suppose WWI pilots in U.S. service might have been packing nearly anything, despite any regulations otherwise, if there were any.

Cheers;
Lefty

mg357, Besides being a member of the forum, I am also a member of the League of World War I Aviation Historians. Their most resent publication, Over The Front, has a photo of several pilots of the 27th Aero Squadron at target practice with M1911s. BTW, Lt. Frank Luke was a member of the 27th. Hope this helps.

I think that Lefty is right: in his epochal book from the next world war, Ted Lawson wrote that his B-25 crew on the Doolittle Raid had all sorts of handguns and knives from home as well as issued .45 autos. He had his wife's Colt .32 auto and a Govt. .45. ( Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo, also a movie of the same name.)

Officers supplied their own sidearms, although most probably had the official models.

I thought it was a nice touch on author Suzanne Arruda's part to have her heroine's boyfriend Sam pack a Colt M-1917 in her latest epic, The Crocodile's Last Embrace. In a postscript, she explained that this is the version of the Colt New Service .45 that he carried,and that he had bought the (issued) gun after the war, in which he was a pilot.

Mrs. Arruda credited me in the acknowledgements of her last two books with giving her firearms advice, and I did. But this was something that she came up with on her own, although I suggested the New Service, inasmuch as she wanted Sam to carry a Colt, and she writes of the just post-WWi era , in colonial Kenya. Her books are quite good, and your wives may also enjoy them, as the protagonist is an American girl who drove an ambulance in the war, then went out to Africa with British friends. She solves crimes in her singular fashion, and the books are very authentic to the period and the setting. Her site may interest those who like good adventure books: www.suzannearruda.com

Still, had she left the matter to me, I'd have had Sam wear a commercial New Service in .45 Colt, because it's more powerful, and I like the better finish of the commercial version. But her reasoning about him carrying his former service weapon is certainly sound. I'm sure that many former officers did just that.

T-Star

If I remember correctly, Frank Luke took to carrying two 1917 revolvers around. He'd practice with them by driving a motorcycle fast and shooting at stop signs. His post crash final shoot out with the Germans was indicated by later research to probably be a myth.

British officers purchased their own guns, but some were more common than others. The Webley automatics and automatic revolver saw some use up in the air. I think the Royal Navy's flying elements actually issued the Webley autos.

Being an officer gave greater leeway in some things back then.

Luftwafee pilots had Lugers, Mausers, and a variety of small .25 and .32 handguns.

In the early days, before planes mounted MGs, the pilots would take potshots at each other with their pistols. Later it was mainly there to shoot yourself as opposed to a crash or burning. The Allies didn't issue parachutes, thinking that someone would panic and waste a perfectly good plane by bailing out. The Luftwaffe did begin offering pilots the option of a parachute.

Balloon crews always had parachutes. They'd also have rifles in addition to pistols.

Shotguns and the MP18 were also taken up in the air.

Somewhere in the distant past, I've seen a photo of a M1911 equipped with a wire brass catcher mounted on the right side to catch ejected cases. Supposedly it was done to keep the cases from damaging the plane in some way. It wouldn't be possible to carry that contraption in a holster, so I wonder if it ever became an issue item or merely an idea that somebody came up with. I think that photo was in an old edition of W.H.B Smith's "Small Arms of the World."

I've seen that photo in several places. But I think it may have been an idea that didn't see much application in real life. There were also bayonets for Webley revolvers, and I doubt if many of those saw use,either.

Gator-

Refresh my memory: didn't Frank Luke get the Medal of Honor?

YES!!!!!!!

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Had a Great uncle fought in the great war in France. He didnt wait for the U.S. to go to war, we are German, and there were old scorse to settle. He flew for the French and very early on he said he sawed down the barrel of a leveraction .45-70. Said he could steady it better than a revolver. He said he could kill a german plane as easy as you could kill a buffalo. I was a bug eyed kid listening to a old man when i heard this. Dont know if it true, but I never found out it wasnt

The brass catcher for the .45 1911 was used with an extended magazine, 15 rounds I believe. It was to prevent empties from flying into the propellers of pusher type aircraft. Machine guns worked better!
O.Z.

Regarding the circumstances of Frank Luke's death, a brief mention of his last flight opens the article "Won With Hardball: The M1911 And The Medal of Honor" in the January 2011 issue of the American Rifleman. I just bring this up it for those interested, and can't comment further.

Of course the author (Barrett Tillman) may be repeating the legend... it may be enlightening if someone wants to write a letter to AR and ask for his source(s).

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You're shy a few manners.

The Brits established the Royal Flying Corp early in WW1. Pilots were trained and transfered from their regular regimemts, "on loan", to the RFC. which explains why photos of the pilots often show them in uniforms of enlisted men or officers of Artillery, Cavalry, of Foot regiments, etc. Later in WW1 the Royal Air Force was establish as a separate unit of the British armed forces. Smith & Wesson Triple locks and 2nd model .44 Hand ejectors were issued to these pilots. Regulations required the unit armorers to stamp these revolvers with the date issuance to a particular unit in the military, the unit designation, and the unit's inventory , to rack, number. I have about a 1/2 doz. of these guns in my collection, plus the uniforms and aviation gear of the pilots. ( I need a Spad & a Sopwith Camel and a Fokker tri-Plane to complete the display!) A friend of mine has about the same amount of these guns, etc., so someday we will do a joint display for the annual meeting of the S&WCA. One of my guns, a T-Lock .455 cal., serial No. 800, was examined by David Penn, Curator of Exhibits (ret.) at the Imperial War Museum in London. He said it was the best example of a WW1 isssued T-Lock to the Royal Flying Corp. he had ever seen, as it has all the stampings the regulations required. Often, due to other pressing duties, the unit armorers did not take the time to fully stamp the incoming revolvers before the pilots got the guns. It is stamped with Crown proofs on the barrel, frame and cylinder. The butt of the left grip is stamped "53 S' for 53rd Squadron. The butt of the right grip is stamped "RFC 29" for Royal Flying Corp, gun # 29" The 53rd Squadron flew in support of the Bengal Lancers and Lawrence of Arabia in the Mesopotamia campaign against the Turks. This T-Lock was shipped Oct. 29, 1914 to Remington Arms Union Metallic Co., ( REMAUMC) agents for the British Gov't in the USA. Later shipment of the the 2nd Model .44 HEs to the Brits, in my collection, received different stampings. No proof marks, just the military acceptance stamps and the rear of the frame, at the hump of the back strap, is stamped with the date, squadron and gun number. For eample: Ser. No. 48259 is stamped "6.16 over 8RS.RFY over 15 ' Three lines of stampings, meaning "June 1916, 8th Recon. Squadron, gun No. 15" Holsters for these guns are of the Sam Brown type. Regulations, Old Boy! Pip Pip and Tally HO! "If I can't pot a dirty Hun with my S&W, I shall point my swagger stick at them and go "Bang. You're dead!" Ed.

Lt. Luke's Medal of Honor Citation from the Congressional Record...

*LUKE, FRANK, JR. (Air Mission)

Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army Air Corps, 27th Aero Squadron, 1st Pursuit Group, Air Service. Place and date: Near Murvaux, France, 29 September 1918. Entered service at: Phoenix, Ariz. Born: 19 May 1897, Phoenix, Ariz. G.O. No.: 59, W.D., 1919. Citation: After having previously destroyed a number of enemy aircraft within 17 days he voluntarily started on a patrol after German observation balloons. Though pursued by 8 German planes which were protecting the enemy balloon line, he unhesitatingly attacked and shot down in flames 3 German balloons, being himself under heavy fire from ground batteries and the hostile planes. Severely wounded, he descended to within 50 meters of the ground, and flying at this low altitude near the town of Murvaux opened fire upon enemy troops, killing 6 and wounding as many more. Forced to make a landing and surrounded on all sides by the enemy, who called upon him to surrender, he drew his automatic pistol and defended himself gallantly until he fell dead from a wound in the chest.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

I've seen the photo of that contraption too , the pistol also had an extended magazine IIRC. I've also seen photos of 1911 'snail drum' magazines back then , similar to the ones for the Luger , but can't say that they were actually issued.

I don't think those ever saw much action.

The .44 Hand Ejectors in a post above were that Second Model, but were chambered for the .455 round in British service. They were also issued to other personnel than just Royal Flying Corps pilots. But I think the RFC/RAF did get most of the Colt .455 autos. During WW II, they were issued to RAF Coastal Command, I guess to get them and their unique ammo in one command.

I used to have one of the S&W .455 revolvers, and wish that I'd kept it. I sold it when a GI Education Bill check was late. Never could find much ammo for it, either. At that time, they weren't expensive collector's items. I paid $31.58 for mine at Gart Bros in Denver in about 1965. That included state tax. Amazing what one remembers from that long ago...The gun was a Second Model in about NRA Very Good Plus condition. Had I been allowed to, and been able to get fresh ammo, I'd have carried it in preference to the S&W .38 that I wore on duty in the USAF. At average handgun ranges, it'd sure have had better stopping power.

T-Star

They still work! I have one in 0.455 that I reload 0.455 cases from Hornady for, using 255 grain LFP sized for 0.454. Also another that had been reamed out for 0.45 colt and also cut. So it gets the same bullet but in 0.45 AR. Even though close to 100 yeas old, they still are accurate. Dave_n

T-Star, If you are referring to my post ("the .44 Hand Ejectors in a post above were that second model...") there were both .44 HE 1st models (Triple Locks) and .44 HE 2nd models sent to the Royal Flying Corps. I have examples of both types with RFC markings. 74,755 total guns were made between 1915 & 1917 as .455 MkII Hand Ejectors. 5,000 of these were S&W .44 Military (New century), aka: Triple Locks. They had their own serial number range, which duplicated the .44 Military New Century models serial number ranges. No caliber markings are on the barrels of these 5,000 guns, so I'll bet there are examples in collections that the owners think are .44 S&W calibers, unless they happen to have British stampings on them. The remaining 69,755 guns are 2nd Model (.455 mark II caliber) Hand Ejectors. Ed.

I have seen historical equipment issue displays for WWI Air Service which included M1911 pistol, M1912 mag pouch, and M1916 holster. I also know from talking to veterans back in the 1970's that in the early days there were not enough firearms and many carried whatever they could get their hands on before shipping out. There were still a lot of revolvers, including the SAA, in the Army inventory that were pressed into service in the early days of the war. My grandfather was still pissed 50 years after the war that he had loaned a favorite gun to a WWI Airman who never brought it back. Same kind of thing happened in the early stages of WWII aswell.

Ed,

I hope that you and your friend (Larry?) will put that display together for a future SWCA show. And it would be icing on the cake if you can still fit into your original WWI uniform. I think that, with a couple of whacks with your swagger stick, you could get that unruly bunch in shape.

Bob

Bob, I've already used up a foot locker full of swagger sticks just trying to keep Larry in line! - Jealosy will get you no where! I can still fit into my Sea Scout uniform! It does take me a little longer to hoist the main sail, however. Ed.

Hi OPOEFC, any chance you could post some pictures of these .455 S&W's and their equipment? These are my very favorite S&Ws and a revolver issued to the RFC would be icing on the cake!Thanks in advance. You have rekindled my quest for one.

Dan Meigs is my official photo poster. I'l take a couple of them,& some gear, to the next Yuma gun show for Dan to photo & post to this thread. Minty RFC guns are hard to come by, as most saw duty in rough conditions, but they are out there, so keep looking. Ed.

Barrett Tillman writes extensively about aircraft, and may well know the truth about Luke.

Is that story available Online?

Actually, they were meant to keep the brass from puncturing the fabric covering of the aircraft, because once torn it would continue tearing until ripped from the fuselage. These were actually used in the begining before they had thoughts about mounting machine guns to the planes.

Makes sense, That is why I have a roll of ducct tape in my Supercub! OZ

I had to read up on Frank Luke after perusing thing thread. What an interesting story, talk about guts!!!!

As an aside to the thread in the Lounge on the FN 1900 pistol,, WW1 Belgian pilot Jan Olieslagers is credited with using his personal FN1900 during the war while flying.
His very first contact with a German aircraft was with a pistol only, but I do not know if it was the FN1900 or another handgun.

Belgian King Albert flew one or two solo observation flights over the front in 1917. His lightly engraved FN1900 is said to have been in his La Panne war-office/residence during the entire war so who knows at this point. Maybe it went along for the ride.

Thanks to Ed and others for the outstanding information they have been so generous to share with the group.

Special thanks to Ikor for the excerpt from the Congressional Record concerning Lt. Luke's MOH.

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You're shy a few manners.

The 2011 Gun Digest has an article on "Smith & Wessons of The Great War". I don't think any aviators are mentioned, but it looks like an interesting article and I look forward to reading it. For many years my daughter has given me the new edition for Christmas and I just got it yesterday.

Here is a copy of the advertisment for the Evans case defletor, as mentioned in a previous post. A cropped version of the photograph appears in Smiths book. It shows a 15 round magazine.The case cathers would have been particularly useful in preventing spent cases from jamming the areoplanes controls.
The British Admiralty purchased a total of 50 of these case deflectors from William Evans during September & October 1916.
In August 1916 the Admiralty purchased 57 Colt automatic pistols in .45acp from the trade, these pistols were issued with 20 round magazines, which were made by Fredrick Beesley, London. All of the above would have been isued to the Royal Naval Air Service, rather than the Royal Flying Corps.
The stange thing is that by mid to late 1916 the Lewis and Vickers machine guns were standard issue, so the exact use of these pistols still awaits an explenation.

Regards
AlanD
Sydney

Attached Images

EVANS CASE CATCHER.jpg (20.1 KB, 168 views)

An interesting point about Frank Luke; apparently the details of his final stand against the German infantrymen didn't come out until after the war. Rickenbacker in his 1919 autobiography, "Fighting the Flying Circus" states that following Luke destroying his last balloon, "From that day to this not one word of reliable information has reached us concerning Luke's disappearance. Not a trace of his machine was ever found! Not a single clue to his death and burial was ever obtained from the Germans! Like Guynemer, the miraculous airman of France, Frank Luke was swallowed by the skies and no mortal traces of him remain!"

Arch Whitehouse in a footnote to the 1965 edition states that it was "later learned" about Luke's final stand in a church graveyard "armed only with his automatic pistol".

Arch Whitehouse also describes the death of Luke in his "Decisive Air Battles of the First World War", "A platoon of German infantrymen gave him (Luke) a chance to surrender, but the wild Arizona youth refused and tried to shoot it out with a .45 automatic. It was a hopeless gesture. Luke went down with a dozen bullets in his chest."

Best regards,

The new American Rifleman today has a story on the 1911 and Medals of Honor. The Luke incident is mentioned.

This has been a very interesting thread, thanks to everyone for sharing! My Grandfather went to England in early 1918, there was a picture of him standing on the dock in NY with a S&W 1917 in a flap holster with others in his unit. My Grandmother showed me this picture from a box of early to mid 1900's images when I was a teen in the 60's, once she passed I went thru all of what was left of their pictures and half of them that I remembered were missing. My mother was one of those minimalists that got rid of anything that she thought was clutter..Including my collection of baseball cards from 1961 to 1970. I learned from this oversight and I have 3 large cardboard boxes of pictures on a shelf in the basement with a note to my kids "Do not destroy".

jb

Just make sure those boxes are archival quality made from acid free stock, and in no danger of being flooded.

/c

Interesting topic and replies. I have a very worn Colt 1911 Civilian, made in 1914, with British proof marks on it. It has been over the pond, May have been WWI or WWII, wish I knew. My understanding is the English officers in WWII provided their own sidearm.

All the Colt Govt. Model (1911) pistols shipped to England before mid 1915 were in 45acp caliber and were commercial serial numbered guns with the 'C' prefix.
They were for retail sales and a great number went to Military personel as Officers (in WW1 at least) had the option of purchasing their sidearm from either 'military stores' or a civilian dealer.
Rule was 'caliber .455' at that time. But many disregarded that and bought the Colt 1911 45acp anyway.

Even Mr Churchill, called to active duty after resigning from the Gov't, purchased his Colt Commercial 1911 45acp for duty in France in 1915 as a Reserve Major.

The 455 S/L caliber 1911's started shipping over in 1916 for British purchasing contracts. They have 'W' ser# prefix.

Any firearm to be sold in England then or now needs to go through Gov't controlled proof. Additional reproof is necessary if certain types of work are performed on it before it can be returned to it's owner or resold.
Any surplus Military arms (sold from service) need reproof under a civilian set of standards and remarked as such before they can be resold.

Quiet Man. British Officers in WW One had the option of purchasing their own side arms from commercial dealers, or could acquire same from military stores, if available. Most officers owned their sidearms & swords, as bought from dealers. In WW Two, the majority of officers were issued sidearms by the military, as few had their own and available civilian source were soon exhausted. In the Korean war, the British and Canadian officers I knew usually had issued Webley & Enfield revolvers, with an occasional S&W or Colt Model 1917. Ed.

Thanks for the information on the Colt 1911. The pistol had hung in a large enclosed barn for a few years, stuck behind a support post and the exterior siding. It had corrosion/grime on it. I asked the owner of the barn about it, but it belonged to his son in law. The grips were removed, but I discovered them, original wood checkered, in a tool box in the same barn. About 3 years later, the barn owner asked if I would like that old pistol. I replied in the affirmative. He told me his son in law had no interest and it was doing no good hanging out there so I might as well do something with it. I quickly gathered it and the grips up, soaked the pistol in penetrating oil for a few days until I could take it apart. I carefully cleaned every single internal/exterior part and when put back together it functioned great, with the slide spring strong enough to take a chunk out of your thumb if you stuck it into the wrong place when releasing. I did have to find an original set of grip screws as I could never find the ones removed. Outside finish is gone with some pitting, but lettering is good with all patent dates and next to the Colt horse emblem, just in front of the hammer, is a crown with a V under it stamped into the slide. Serial # is C12XXX. Looked into a restoration, but to have it done right was way above my budget, so will keep it as is.

The Crown/V is the 'view' proof mark of the London Proof House (pre-1925). It was the mark applied after the actual firing proof. The view proof was an inspection of the firearm involving both simple visual and some measuring procedures to insure the proof fireing did not stress the parts beyond acceptable limits.

The actual proof firing mark for the London Proof House at that time was a Crown over intertwined GP. That should be present on the barrel,,usually seen on the barrel visable through the ejection port.

After 1916/17,,they added an additional Nitro Proof mark to the mix. That is the commonly seen raised arm w/sword over the letters 'NP'.

Proofs missing from the barrel may point to a replaced barrel. But there are some pistols that simply missed being stamped properly at times. Stress of War time and all.

After reading the last post I did check the barrel in the ejection port area and can see a crown over a V with the intwined GP above it. The V is distinct and the P, but had to use a magnifying glass to make out the other markings. Barrel has rough bore, but rifleing is visible. Glad to have the gun, but it is sad to see what the improper care has caused. Based upon the information provided in this post, there is a chance this 1911 may have seen service/use in WWI. It is of interest to me as I look this old gun over to wonder its history and I appreciate the additional information I have gleamed about the proof marks.