Entirely the fault of the "instructor." I don't know what the store owner said after he sent the customer down the road, but the next step should have been to send the instructor along on her way, too.

When I was a lad growing up, I was never allowed to load a repeater of any kind until I had satisfied my Dad that I knew how to use the gun in single-shot mode. This took a while. He always gave me plenty of chances to screw-up and sometimes I wondered if he would ever be satisfied. I guess I just assumed that any (competent) instructor would use the same procedure. Good grief. How idiotic...

My sentiments exactly. She's been banned from the range, instructor probably banned her from her classes and she's had a bad experience. I would be surprised if she 'wants' to handle a gun again. And if she's ever in a situation where she needs to use deadly force...

She should take a simple gun handling course again, if and only if, she's developed a healthy respect for firearms. Attitude towards guns, being prepared, being ready to use it if necessary; all mental aspects which should be address before range time.

Everyone's attitude would probably change if this was their daughter or wife.

OK! Finally got through reading every single post in this thread! Whew!

I have been a certified instructor for many years. Of all the students I have taught, many had never touched a firearm before, and most had very little experience.

They very first thing I did with every class (after pointing out where the bathroom was!) was to determine each students "Level of Knowledge". That is straight from instructional methodology handbook! A lot of the folks responding to this thread have mentioned it with other words. It is still the same.

Having determined that this particular student was not only a complete novice, but was also a slow learner (understatement), the instructor should have proceeded much more slowly and deliberately.

There were several instructor errors made. The first was not conducting a proper practical assessment of what was learned in the classroom. Our students do not even enter the range until they demonstrate the ability to load, unload, and dry fire (with snap caps) while strictly adhering to the basic gun safety rules.

Then and only then are they allowed to go into the range with one on one instruction, which always starts with .22s.

Proficiency is measured by observing whether or not the student is applying all safety rules. Most importantly "Muzzle in a safe direction at all times" and "Finger off the trigger until on target." We proceed to .38s and then .45s if the student shows competency with the smaller calibers.

Most importantly, the instructor stands DIRECTLY to the side and slightly rearward of the student in such a way that the gun /hand can be grabbed if that muzzle starts to point anywhere but down range.

I have had some students that were incredibly hard to teach. I took my time with them, even to the point of returning to the range at a later date to provide private instruction on my own time.

I think that the student referred to in the opening post was an exceptionally difficult to teach student that needed a whole lot more training and more importantly, assessment, before moving up to the level at which this incident occurred.

It may be helpful for your instructor friend to read this thread.


I think every new shooter should be encouraged (not mandated) to seek proper firearm safety instruction.


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

Outstanding post, sir. Thank you -and I salute you for faithfully teaching new shooters, even the difficult ones.

Andy

This is what I said..and what you misquoted.

"I support 2A and the rest of the Constitution but cannot accept that any jurisdiction would allow an untrained person to carry a firearm in public without any indication whatsoever that he/she was capable of safe handling and responsible use of a gun."


If you want to pick a fight, count me "in." And properly quote me next time you do.

If a jurisdiction as Arizona wants to allow such a person as the instant student to carry a gun that is just stupid.

Be safe.

Thanks for the kind words. I enjoy teaching, so it's not like I am putting myself out in any way.


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

I am not an instructor, but I have taken people to the range that have never shot a gun before. I go over the basics with them. I always demonstrate, using my finger like it was a gun, how people turn around and sweep the firing line with their gun. I always start new shooters with a .22 revolver and stand close behind them, where I can stop them if they start to turn with a loaded gun.

Put me with the crowd who feels that the instructor did the student a disgraceful disservice, as did the range that banned her. This is the instructors fault, not the students. We have taken employees who have never held a firearm in their lives and made marksmen (and markswomen) of them on many, many occasions, but we never got their by handing them a loaded self loading pistol and letting them bang away....shameful behavior on the part of the instructor...and we now have a young lady who has been soured on the whole "instructor, range, gun" world....instead of a trained individual who can protect herself and promote the proper use of a handgun...gee, thanks a lot...for NOTHING

I once had a female student in nearly the same situation. Her 'significant other' had decided that they both would take a personal handgun defense course. They came to the two day course with identical Glock 17s. I was going thru the range rules, course curriculum, and miscellaneous rules. I noticed this young lady was silently crying. I took her to one side and asked what her problem was. She had never fired a handgun, was afraid of them, didn't think that she could ever fire one properly, etc...... But her significant other was insistent that she take the course because they were now going to keep loaded handguns in the house. I had the class come to the line and dry fire for a considerable amount of time. I then broke out my S&W Model 63 and put one cartridge in the next chamber up. I told everyone else to continue dry firing. I quietly told the young lady that she could do this and that I was going to be right at her side. I positioned her in front of a IPSC target about 3 yards away. I put the handgun in her hands with my right hand under her two hands. I had my left hand on her right shoulder. I told her to shut her eyes tight. I then talked her thru pulling the trigger. She was silently crying during all this. When the .22LR went off she almost fainted. I told her, "See you have now shot a handgun and nothing happened to you." Now look at the hole in the target." She was thrilled. I then loaded one more and told her to do it all over again with her eyes open. We went over the handgun safety rules again. I explained the sight picture. She shot the S&W Model 63 for the first morning. I transitioned her to the Glock 17 after lunch. By the end of the second day she was consistently out shooting her significant other and was the second best shooter in the class. In fact she was so good that I tried to talk her into going on to competitive shooting. She wasn't interested in doing that but did go on and get her Nevada CCW. I saw her on the street about 3 years later and she thanked me for my patience and good shooting instruction. She also said that she never sees a handgun without thinking about me and my safety instructions. ......... Big Cholla

Most, if not all of us that having been in the instructing game for any length of time have had the student like bigcholla had with a similar outcome which to me is what it is really all about. Very gratifying to me and I am sure to my colleagues as well.

It is with the challenging, and have never fired before student that makes me earn my keep as an instructor. Working with these folks will find and magnify any weakness we have as instructors. We can all enjoy working with the motivated and adept student. I have found that with the challenging comes great rewards as well.

Last year I had a couple that were in their mid 70's and neither of them had ever fired a handgun in their life. They bought a Ruger MKIII and a SW Sigma 9mm for the NRA Basic Pistol class and seemed scared to death but were determined. ( They had a home invasion attempt)

The lady, Char did well in the classroom but froze badly when it came to live fire. Having the ability to explain things in a number of ways until the light bulb came on in her brain took a great deal of patience. In Char's case like all other students, we would not let her progress to the next layer until she had mastered the skill we were working first.

Yet, when it was all done and over it was Char that said to her husband, " Now that was fun, we need to go shooting more often honey!"
What a dramatic turn around that had a high potential of going sour.

Isn't that a big reason we became instructors in the first place?

In the OP's case I would have seem this failure as MY failure as an Instructor, NOT the failure of the student.

Randy

This, and the previous post by Bigcholla, said it all. Image if drivers training instructors acted like this. Every student who did something stupid in their first classes would be banned from training and made to feel they should never get behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. I would look at this student as a challenge to me as an instructor. Any instructor can teach the average student to shoot/drive/fly, whatever the skill. But what separates the average instructors from the best ones is their ability to take the very difficult students and, through patience and good training, turn them into graduates. This instructor saw the challenge and walked away from her.

What do you meant you don't set a bar? The statement sets a bar. Who are those people and who gets to determine who they are and why they shouldn't be allowed to carry one? What's the standard?

You say you don't set the bar? Ok, that's probably true. How are you going to feel when someone else comes along and sets the bar so high YOU can't reach it? And there are a lot of people out there who want to do just that.

I'll take my chances with more freedom, and not less.

And to stay on topic. The instructor failed. I'm sure glad I didn't get kicked out school the first time I made a mistake. I'm glad I didn't have to be born knowing how to do anything.

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John 3:16 .

Indeed, achieving success with the most challenging studii is why we became instructors. Everybody assimilates information in different ways. Some people are visual learners, some require a "hands on" approach and some just need to have the information presented in a manner that they can comprehend. It is our job to figure out how to instruct that particular student. Firearms handling is a critical skill and must be done safely and correctly. Patience, perseverance and humility are a must, along with knowledge and ability. Well done, sir!

Uh-oh.
Better count me in, too. (winner predetermined)

You gents need to tone it down a bit.
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Opinions are fine, stated within reason.
Everyone gets to keep their own, even when they're wrong.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Better listen Gents!

Look at his avitar!!





()

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Good life will not Heaven get!

Duly noted.

When I became a cop I was told what standards had to be met. I had the choice to meet those standards or find another occupation. I didn't complain that the standards were too high or that they shouldn't apply to me because I was somehow enabled or "special." People wash out of law enforcement because the bar is set high...as it should be.

Based on some folks' statements, it seems LEO's should NOT have to be trained or qualified in firearms. Now that's a really bad idea, IMHO.

I live in Maryland and pre-LEOSA it would have been unlikely that I would have been allowed to CCW post-retirement. I absolutely guarantee I wouldn't have moved just to carry a gun. But, as I can be re-trained and re-qualified annually, I avail myself of that opportunity. The great state of Maryland sets the LEOSA bar rather high. Again, I can meet their standards or forego my privilege to CCW. I don't complain and happily take advantage of what I am offered. (For me it involves an overnight hotel stay due to distance and considerable effort, time, and expense. It's their "bar"; and I will do whatever is required.)

Now, back to the OP. I still contend if a student cannot grasp the concept of keeping their trigger finger on the slide 'til it's time to pull the trigger they are ill-suited to carry a gun and should not be allowed to do so.

Be safe.

im saddened by this story and i am greatfull that gun owners and CHL persons are not tarnished by what could have been alot worse.

kind of reminds me of this girl.
Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question - YouTube
now my brain hurts.......

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

There are many good suggestions expressed here by fellow forum members. The next time I have the opportunity to speak with my instructor friend, I will have some questions that I would like her to address.

I guess I’m old school. I grew up in the country where guns were a way of life. Every rural family owned a rifle or two, a shotgun or two and maybe a handgun. We were aware of guns before we were aware of the A,B,C’s. I was fortunate enough to have a dad, a granddad and several uncles who were avid hunters and gun enthusiasts. Over the years they taught me, my brothers and my sister the skills they had learned. They taught us respect for our firearms and respect for the game that we hunted with them. Above all they taught us safety—our safety and the safety of those around us.

For many gun owners today this is not the case. But, that does not mean that these fine people aren’t capable of becoming excellent marksmen and/or hunters. Many of them do. I would wager that a lot of these folks could out-shoot or out-hunt me. Nether does it mean that they are unsafe or reckless with their guns. Most are not.

For some, the first time to hold a gun was when the sales clerk put one in their hand. Some have a natural talent and will do well. Some will acquire the talent and do well. Some will never fully comprehend what they hold in their hand, nor the damage it can do. This latter group is the one that worries me.

As Bee-mer, I'm a big advocate of the one round in the firearm until we learn the proper manner to shoot a firearm.

As with anything when your dealing with the public, 50% or more are of the lower half of intelligence and common sense.

Rule 303

27145, not sure if you're mocking me or agreeing with me but that's funny. Thanks...regardless.

Be safe.

[QUOTE=The Big D;136083056]Red Level:



I support 2A and the rest of the Constitution but cannot accept that any jurisdiction would allow an untrained person to carry a firearm in public without any indication whatsoever that he/she was capable of safe handling and responsible use of a gun.


Non sequitur.


Re OP. The girl at least sought and agreed to training. I think the instructor could have been more helpful and competent.

Well, now, that's an interesting first post.

But we now know one thing; you weren't an English major.

Be safe.

[QUOTE=MickeyMac;136084864]

Posted by Redlevel: "Here in backwards, dumb, rural Georgia, we pretty much give people the benefit of the doubt. "

And they need every bit of it. I was a guest at a private members only range with another old guy buddy (member), a 35 year old deputy sheriff (he made sure we knew he was a LEO), and the deputy's 7 year old son with a Chipmonk 22 rifle.

The shooting is all done, I ask the deputy if it's ok to go change my 100 yard target. Yes it's ok, we are done shooting. I go down range alone, change target, coming back to firing line and am at the 50 yard line. BANG! The deputy yells an apology to me as I continue back to the firing line.

The deputy's young son fired his rifle at something. I didn't hear the bullet pass by me. I get to the firing line, and the deputy is still yelling at the son.

I interupted his lecture to his son and looked the deputy right in the eyes and said, "It wasn't your son's fault. He is a little boy at the rifle range. He wants to shoot. You were not watching him. You are the responsible adult, trained in the safe handling and use of a fire arm, and a law officer. You failed as a father, its not your son's fault because you were not watching him or in control of his ammo. And I don't need another apology from you or him."

It's ok to resume shooting? And we resumed shooting. I don't think I have ever been so angry at an "adult" before at a shooting range. "Firearm accidents" only take a second to happen.

Yup, tact and diplomacy are not my strong suits at times like this. And now I'm a member of this elite firearm outdoor organization.

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S&WHF 366

That was Latin.......not English. It was used appropriately. Just don't rely on the colloquial definition in Wikipedia.

The larger point being that the Founders' intent was to clearly identify rights which are declared and self evident; not permissions granted by government. 2A is but one of the Bill of Rights. They are rights first and whether you or I think someone should own a firearm, speak in public, worship in a particular church, be shaken down and searched by the police because they look suspicious all have zero bearing on the existence of those rights. None of those are reserved only for those with your extensive level of training. Reasonable limitations that do not serve to disarm the populace are one thing. Surrender of rights due to criminal behavior is understandable. However, capricious restrictions urged by government trained and employed experts which place the bar just a little below their own competence should be regarded with suspicion and resisted.

I have not your level of training but am not a novice and would have appreciated the opportunity to defend myself when accosted by three young men with knives one night on the streets of your state's largest city. Alas, that is a state that only recognizes the right to self defense for LEOs, jewelers, athletes and stridently anti 2A senators.

Since you made a personal attack, I'm forced to respond: you guessed wrong.

Sorry if this thread seems to be hijacked. It seems the thread evolved from the original story to a discussion of who should be armed. I would agree some people should not arm themselves. But their RIGHT to be armed should not be limited by some bureaucracy.

The larger point being that the Founders' intent was to clearly identify rights which are declared and self evident; not permissions granted by government. 2A is but one of the Bill of Rights. They are rights first and whether you or I think someone should own a firearm, speak in public, worship in a particular church, be shaken down and searched by the police because they look suspicious all have zero bearing on the existence of those rights. None of those are reserved only for those with your extensive level of training. Reasonable limitations that do not serve to disarm the populace are one thing. Surrender of rights due to criminal behavior is understandable. However, capricious restrictions urged by government trained and employed experts which place the bar just a little below their own competence should be regarded with suspicion and resisted.

This statement from Mickey Mac is very true. I am in complete agreement.

First, I'm not in Law Enforcement, nor any kind of instructor.
That said, here's my take on training;
I would rather see every man, woman, and child owning a firearm,
than to have government put up ANY hurdles. This bit about making
decisions on how much training an individual has had, is just
another way to control other people. People like to be in power, and
believe they know what's best for "the people". It's just that type
of Big Brother-ism that is ruining this country. You've all seen it.
"Now" is not too soon to put the pressure on individuals to not shoot
their neighbors' windows out. Leave "people" alone. TACC1

I copied the following quote from the original story, " The girl managed to hit paper and became so excited that she turned around, gun in hand, finger on trigger and muzzle pointed at my chest." This part of the story leads me to believe that the student may have enjoyed the experience. Miss student might have done well if the instructor had said lets go to the break room and start again, as it ended the student may now be the one vote in an election that will make it harder for us gun owners to enjoy our sport. It is easy to sit here in my recliner and say "I would have done xxx, then done yyyy and all would have been happy". The story indicated that the instructor was indeed very experienced and well qualified. However, some of the comments that were supposedly made by her, led me to believe that she did not think very much of the student to begin with. From just one side of the story it looks to me like the whole thing might have been handled better by all of the parties involved. Just my $.02 cents worth....

Does anyone have his(her) first shooting lesson on paper anymore? It took me weeks after my lesson to get taken to the range. Safety and the proper respect for what your doing is NOT a speedreading course.

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... fortunate son...

Interesting post indeed! Allow me to paraphrase one of the statements included in EVERY NRA basic firearms course:

"... the two leading causes of firearms accidents are ignorance and carelessness."

The account shared in the initial post provided examples of both. I have been instructing since VA became a shall-issue CC state and I have personally instructed well over 1,000 individuals and I totally agree the Instructor in the first post could and should have avoided the incident. Had the Instructor conducted themself and the session differently, I believe the student could have avoided any unsafe actions, completed the introductory session successfully, and even ultimately become a safe, competent, and confident shooter and another positive ambassador for the shooting sports and firearm community.

I could go on and on about those specifics but I would prefer to point out the following quote the Instructor apparently made after the incident:

"From now on, if a student has no prior firearm experience, I will not
allow a loaded magazine in a gun. It will be single shot only until
the student proves he or she is capable of firearm safety. "

Many of you would argue, and I agree, that an experienced Instructor should have already embraced that philosphy beforehand and avoided such an incident. Perhaps, the Instructor was never properly trained themselves. Either way, I am pleased to note that learning occurred and, hopefully, that Instructor will never make the same mistake. Please understand I am choosing to look at the silver lining of this cloud- I am just as horrified as anyone else that such an incident happened and could have been avoided.

As an Instructor, *I* am even further to the other end of the spectrum where I always err on the side of caution and safety. Regardless of an individual's prior experience, if they come to one of my classes... the first 5 (five) shots at the range are fired single shot with only one cartridge being loaded at a time and then fired. This is after classroom instruction which includes loading/unloading and dry-firing real firearms with inert catridges. That normally affords the opportunity for the student and myself to achieve a comfort level with their safe operation of the firearm in the first 5 (five) shots of live ammunition at the range. If necessary, additional cartridges are loaded and fired single shot until that comfort level is achieved.

I hope this thread encourages everyone to turn a negative into a positive and prompts those of you with experience to share your expertise and love of the shooting sports and teach others... whether it be in an organized NRA course of one-on-one as a coach or a friend/acquaintance. The only way for us to combat ignorance and carelessness about firearms and shooting is to get the right information out there to more people and that takes time and effort!

Kind regards,

~Harvester

I'm not a firearms instructor so have never taught a course of instruction in firearms.

I did, however, introduce my wife and grandson to handgun shooting and that is exactly how I treated them.

Come to think of it, the DI's at Parris Island never let any of us recruits handle loaded firearms until we were proficient in their safe handling.

Seems to me (my opinion) that people are getting dumber and dumber everywhere. From the local Walmart to Governmental entities. No one knows anything and can't figure out much. Too many chemicals in the food?

True story...Years ago my practical pistol club rented the local Sheriff's range to have our weekly matches. One day( not a club nite) the Instructor shot one of his trainees. Happened this way. Student had finished shooting a string of 5 shots on the range and walked out into the lounge area. Student stuck his revolver in his pants waistband in front. Instructor told him to never carry his gun that way as some one could grab it and shoot him with it, and then the instructor proceeded to show him by grabbing the gun and pulling the trigger. What the instructor didn't know was the trainee had loaded SIX rounds in his revolver. Trainee shot, horribly wounded but did survive. Upshot of this was our club was banned from the range because "if a trained instructor can have an accident, think how dangerous you cowboys are!"

BR

Did this "lounge" area serve alcohol by chance? Crack cocaine, maybe?

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Georgia On My Mind

I think we have a winner for world's most incompetent instructor... Unbelievable..

The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits ...

UNbelievable!?! OK... in the case of the Instructor Farmboy mentioned, a new thread could be started and titled: "Instructor MEANS idiot!"

I dont want to point fingers or hijack the thread but you should know this already.

Any time I take a new shooter to the range. After I give them a lesson and safety rules. I put one shot in the gun and tell them to point it at the target and squeeze. I dont care if they hit anything as long as it is in the right direction. I want them to feel the power of the weapon.
Then it is one shot at a time until they are relaxed. Then we go to two. After all is well we start with a full gun.

Not being a jerk but as an instructor you should have known this already.

Good luck remember most people are morons. Look at what is going on in this country. That will prove it.

This woman has a calling. I predict that she will run for public office.

Thanks for sharing that one. Some stuff just can't be 'made up'.

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Incoming fire has right of way

I love how people want to call this woman an idiot for being totally unfamiliar with proper gun handling. Yeah, it is dangerous and there is not much if any margin for error. It is my opinion that the instructor is to blame for much of the outcome of this situation.

If people are to be considered an idiot for asking "dumb" questions and showing little knowledge of a subject that they are just learning about, then I've met many idiots and have been one myself (some may say I still am but they can jam it in their jello).

I'm a flight instructor and practically every student I've taught had to learn many new things. One of the first things you have to learn about handling an airplane is taxiing. When taxiing most training airplanes, steering is accomplished through the rudder pedals and differential braking. I can't think of one student that I've taught that when getting the airplane moving on the ground for the first time, didn't try to use the flight control yoke to steer the airplane. They would turn the yoke left or right and the plane would go straight no matter how sharp they turned the control wheel. This is after a prefight briefing discussing what we would be learning that flight, including taxiing. This happens even while you are telling them what to do before and while they are doing it.

As someone already pointed out, ignorance and stupidity are not the same thing.

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Cheers!

I am forced to ask . . . . are you speaking of the instructor or the student?

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Georgia On My Mind

Hope he's talking about the instructor. The more I think about this, the more indignant I feel that the student was treated as she was.

excellent point.

A show of hands for everyone who has been muzzle swept on the range by "experienced" shooters. This novice was no more or less dangerous than plenty of others who are simply careless, stupid, and/or uninformed about firearms operation and safety.

This quote was noteworthy: "I asked, “why a Glock”, and she replied that her boyfriend had picked it out. He thought that carrying a Glock would be really cool."

No doubt this joker sprays his Glock one-handed and sideways, just like they do in the movies.

"gLoCk AnD gAnSta! 4eVA!"

xXxqUnEuRxXx

This statement could apply to every generation AND administration.

By the way, I've taught students from the age of 16 up to 70 and guess who picked up the training more quickly and with less trouble? That's right, the younger ones.

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Cheers!

I don't understand... She was standing behind her and knew it was her first ever shot. Why did she let her turn around? Seems the whole event could have been easily prevented.

For those cases I think system in Czech republic is not to bad - you have to pass exams consisted of writen test, safe gun handling and shooting, to get a license - then you can buy and carry a firearm.

But even with that system we have a lot of people as described above. Mainly between hunters.

Sadly most of the people after getting their license and gun, do not pracitec handling and shooting it at all and then accidents happends. And each of that accidents is very good for anti-gun people, to get us stripped of our rights