I learned a couple of interesting things about snakebite yesterday -- was out at the farm (Lacassine area, about 18 miles east of Lake Charles, just north of a major wildlife reserve) -- finished cutting grass and was walking by our pond
with one of our English Setters, Dram -- we have had a lot of rain this spring, so the ditches, ponds, marshes, etc are full as well as the crawfish ponds (flooded rice fields in the area), so lots of snakes around .Usually the only place I encounter water moccasins is in the marsh and I have had to kill a few over the years, including a 5-footer that was in the yard of our duck camp. I can usually smell them if they are over a few feet long (I know that sounds strange, but they have a dank and disagreeable odor that you can smell if close to one) -- I apparently walked right by the moccasin (in some high grass by the pond edge and it struck Dram near the shoulder who yelped. Ran to the barn, put Dram in his crate in the truck, got a heavy duty rake, and was able to find the snake and kill it -- positive ID as moccasin. Rushed to vet -- shave area at bite site -- no swelling, or any other sequelae after several hours (usually there is rapid swelling as the venom is primarily hemotoxic/mucotoxic) -- Found out that snakebites do not always produce envenomation and with water moccasins only about 50% of bites result in envenomation -- (apparently defensive strikes) -- also found out that anitvenin supplies are low and very very expensive -- antivenin serum treatment may run into many thousands of dollars. Thought came to mind that if you spend a lot of time outdoors (as I do), check around and find out what medical facilities in your area keep antivenin in stock -- it may come in handy to know that in advance one day. Dram is fine and I am very relieved.
A doctor friend I talked to yesterday told me that the snake must have known that I was a lawyer and did not bite me as a professonal courtesy -- about the only humor in what was
an eventful and worried afternoon.

Professional, not professonal, sorry.

I had a friend bitten by a copperhead last fall. The cost of anti-venom was approximately $18,000. Another guy in a nearby city got bitten by one and his hospital cost was $80,000.

That is in line with what I was told yesterday -- antivenin would run about $20,000 and that hospital stays for 2-3 days of serum antivenin treatment runs $50,000 plus. Never dreamed that snakebite treatment was that high.

A rancher friend of mine out west got gitten by a small Prairie Rattler a couple years back. His anti venom bill was $20,500. Makes me want trade my shake proof gaiters for a snake proof full body suit. I could probably make a career out of shootin prarie dogs if it wasn't for the dang rattlers.

Good information here. I knew a man years ago in Texas who claimed he could smell rattlesnakes. His workmates "pooh-poohed" him until he smelled and found them several times over to prove it.

__________________
Have guns...will shoot'em.

George Leonard Herter, the eccentric founder of Heter's, Inc. of Waseca, Minn., claimed in his Professional Guide's Manual
that cottonmouths "have a smell just exactly like fresh cut watermelon."

Of course, Mr. Herter was a man who knew all the answers, and if he didn't he'd make one up.

A friend of one of my church members was stuck in the foot by a not large diamond back rattle snake. The anti-venom ran $22,000 plus the other cost of treatment. The lady said if she'd have known what it was going to ultimately cost, she'd have just taken her hoe and chopped off that toe after killing the snake!

__________________
<><

"What did the Doc say?"

"He says you're gonna die."

Back in the late 40’s when my grandmother was bitten by a copperhead my granddad treated the bite with turpentine, tobacco leaves and cocklebur root. We wern’t the ‘Beverly Hillbillies’, but close. Doctors and medical services weren’t as accessible to us out in the country as they are today and many folks resorted to home remedies. I remember her being very sick but she recovered. I wouldn’t recommend doing that today.

If you are ever bitten by anything poisonous you want this Dr.

Emergency Medicine Residency Program - Dr. Bush of Venom ER - LLUMC emergency medicine

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

I recall my father--who was born in eastern Missouri in 1914--saying that the old timers if bitten by a copperhead would usually get very drunk and stay that way in bed for up to a week. Dad didn't have any info about survival rates, though.

Last year my Lab Sophie stepped on a pygmy rattler, they grow about 12" to 15" around here, started swelling and took her to Vets. Not enough venom to do major damage, so Vet gave her an antibiotic shot. Had a little tissue rotting and damage, but after about a week or so, it clear up with no after affects.

__________________
Dick

All this makes me very happy to live in Western Washington.....

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

When I was a kid growing up in Collin County,TX we lived on my grandfather's homestead, located on the upper drainage basin for Whiterock Creek. By the time I was in 2nd grade I had developed a fascination with snakes and knew every kind of snake I was likely to encounter in N TX. One interesting fact I learned was that most water snakes, including the Cottonmouth Water Moccasin, have a scent gland near the anal opening. One of their big defense mechanisms is to release a very thick and nasty smelling secretion that, once encountered, is not likely to be forgotten. I could always tell when I was in too close of proximity to one of those bad boys. The smell gave their presence away and I was quick to vacate the premises. Water snakes in TX that resemble Mocs include the Diamondback Water Snake and the Common Water Snake... short stubby bodies, nasty tempers and the aforementioned musk glands. Another tell tale sign of the pit vipers, the mocs, rattlers and copperheads, is that their eyes have pupils like a cat... if ya get that close to 'em!

Hog, the hamateur herpetologist!

__________________
Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13

its called a dry bite. venomous snakes prefer to use their venom for hunting or when they really feel threatened.

a dry bite is a warning, with the real thing should that warning not be heeded.

__________________
I'm only allowed 30 characters

Happy outcome - good to hear your Dram is OK. Sounds like the farm can be a hazard area when there is high water. I hate snakes so I wouldn't do well in that area at all.

Take special care down there!!


Pete

__________________
Don't tread on me

I've always described mocassins as smelling like cucumbers. Last summer, my 12 pound mutt, mostly chichuhua, dachshund and some terrier got struck right in the abdomin, just in front of the hip.
We rushed the mutt to the local emergency vet and they told us to run like hell for the NC vet school in Raleigh.
Four days in intensive care, $6,000 later, he survived. The docs were even surprised and wrote it up for some vet journal. The little guy has personality plus and he was worth it!
The snake wasn't seen but we have copperheads, rattlesnakes and moccassins right here on the property. We live by a swamp.

__________________
Old paratrooper in NC

Glad to hear Dram is okay, COL.

I am astonished at how much it costs to treat a snake bite. And I am wondering why it is $6K for a dog and somewhere between $20K and $80K for a person...

And I am also wondering if the people who were bit were covered by insurance... Man, that would be true bite in the rear to be minding your own business, taking a walk, and wham! $80K dent in the bank account...

(And I was reminded of that joke -- "He says you're gonna die!" -- too, Marsh!)

Vets charge reasonable fees for their services, MDs charge like they are some kind of God. Have had work done to a horse for $100 that would have been $75,000 to $100,000 if it had been done to me.

We usually work two or three copperhead bites a year up in the Tallulah Falls area. Usually kids at the camp. The antivennen is called Crofab. It's abput $6000 a vial. Most bites take 3-6 vials. Because of the expense most of the doctors will not give it if the patient is not showing symptoms by the time we reach the hospital. If a snake has ate recently the bite is usually dry. Snakes build up venom as they get hungry. They don't intentionally envenomate when they bite people, but if the snake is hungry your in trouble. They don't bite people to be malicious. but in defense. I think if given a choice to bite or retreat snake will try to get away.

Had that happened to me, I fear I would have soiled my pantaloons.
A good friend's son got whacked on the food by a copperhead. Came out ok. A few years back, another acquaintance's dog got hold of a water moccasin-was shaking it asthe guy tried to get in to protect the dog. Well that dog whipped the snake across the guy's arm and he spent two weeks in the hospital-arm swole up like a balloon
Last time I saw a moccasin, was right before we ran up on it as it lay on the bank. Was like slow motion as in Oh....s......!!! we had no idea how pinned the snake was under the boat, were afraid to get out-the dog was on shore barking and lunging at the snake-The one guy on shoew got the dog off and we had a very careful choreograph getting the boat off the snake and out of the way in enough time to allow the guy on shore to shoot it and not hit anyone else before the snake got away. Was about 3 feet long and as big around as your arm-gawd those are UGLY snakes and they WILL come after you! Bernie I'm so glad your story had a good ending.

__________________
Forum consigliere

Defensive snake bites usually occur when the snake is threatened by something too big to eat. Humans fall into this category except we usually get envenomated as we have ignored all the previous warnings issued by the snake. Sadly, most of us are too domesticated to notice these warnings any more.

As for snakes pooping as a defence mechanism, the Great Basin Gopher snake has a rep for this, too.

When it comes to detecting nasty animals, few could beat my arachnophobic mother. She could walk into a room, shudder, then leave stating, "There's a big spider in here" without one being immediately visible. Her 90%+ hit rate was downright spooky.

Sure glad Dram is okay. There're enough dangers in this world to
protect our best friends from without that. Good luck in future.
TACC1

Not saying there are no abuses but the stakes are a bit different in a dog vs a horse vs your kid.. . . or you!

and the chance of suing for malpractice is higher...as well as a lot less equipment that costs a lot less.

as much as i have loved my dogs in the past. i would never spend that much on one, or have it go through that kind of pain. hopefully your has many years of life without complications.

i've read that the type of snake also determines the cost of antivennen, with the more expensive being the non-indigenous and "non-pet" snakes such as the gaboon viper and various cobras.

i wonder if the initial bite feels like a constrictor bite. i was hit 2 times by my first ball python. both my fault. it didn't really hurt but pulling about 20 teeth out of my hand each time was not fun.

is for our rattlers and their relatives, all North American Crotalid (Copperhead and Cottonmouth/Water moccasin). They use sheep to grow the antibodies which are harvested, purified and standardized. When I was in practice the stuff was grown in horses and it was pretty expensive then. Because it is a biologic, it has a shelf life and the distributors won't give a credit on an out of date bottle. That is standard procedure for biologics. The horse origin had a fairly high rate of allergic reaction to the horse protein.

I have smelled water moccasins and I think they smell more like tom cat urine.

Glad there was a good outcome! I had a patient that got nailed by a "presumed" Eastern Diamondback and he expired with two vials on board. Got hit in the neck next to the jugular and there was 1 3/4" between the fang marks. Cats, if they get any venom, die... Just my experience..

Dog's cant sue! that is why! Plus, why is anti-venom so high? Snake is milked, venom injected into horse/sheep, antibodies form, blood is drawn, serum extracted, spun, antivenom extracted, sterilized, tested, bottled, shipped, etc, etc, etc. Not as easy as cooking up a cake. There are only a handful of people/companies that do this to begin with.

There is no reason it should cost that much.

It should be about fifteen bucks...

Where is Obama Care when you need it???

Also, IF I knew it cost that much I would net have have pinned the heads, and picked up as many rattlers as I have over the years...

I will never pin and pick up another...

Wonder why it costs so Much???
Ever try milkin' a snake???
Takes a mighty small stool to begin with then......



chuck

__________________
They hold no Quarter

I don't know...the longer I'm around human beings, the better I like my dog...

Aloha,

Another reason to live in Hawaii in spite of the stupid anti gun laws.

We're tring to change the laws, don't know much about snakes.

My Texas friend says if I met one, I'd most likely Scream like a little girl. Don't think I want to find out.

Here on my Place the wife and I kill several Diamond Back water snakes over 40" every year.

We have shot several of them with a pretty good sized Catfish in their mouth...

I don't care for snakes PERIOD.

__________________
NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

*
Yeah, until you evade immigration control and end up on the good side of MP 52. Then we see clowns out walking in the weeds at Winchester Wasteway and Sprague, unaware of the risks ....

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

Also: In deference to what I think would be Lee's preferences, I won't link to it, but you can go to YouTube and see my friend Pat talk about saving another instructor's life. :-)

Search for "Death on a Sunny Afternoon Pat Rogers" Pat is not family friendly, so if you have those sensibilities, don't watch any of his videos.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

Whoa! I've been bitten by copperhead (twice) and rec'd zero antivenom.

Copperheads are venomous snakes, but rarely deadly to able-bodied folks. The very young, the elderly, and the infirm are most at risk and likely would require antivenom. Most folks from teens thru late-middle age can tolerate copperhead venom and recover fully without antivenom treatments. Of course, some have a non-standard (allergic) reaction to any type of venom and require additional attention/treatment.

In my case, (IIRC) I was given fluids to dilute, antibiotics to address the risk of infection, and pain killers to ease the hurt. I was monitored for a couple days then sent home. I was struck in both feet (one bite in each) and it took about 3 weeks for all of the swelling to subside enough to walk normally.

One odd occurrence: My feet STUNK for about 5 months after the bites. And I mean they were putrid. A few minutes enclosed in any shoe and my feet would reek. I spent much time with shoes off, but they would still smell even after being scrubbed and left in the open air.

I was fortunate that my ER doc had just transferred from TX to VA and was an expert on reptile bites and snake venom.

When I was bit, I freaked out for about 20 seconds before I remembered to stay calm and try to keep my heart rate down. For the first 5 minutes after the bite, it felt like nothing more than any other small puncture wounds and not very painful. After about 10 minutes the pain from the venom set in and it became quite painful. After about 20 minutes, I became a bit drunk and delirious: kinda like a venom-inducted and unpleasant intoxication. I arrived at the ER about 40 minutes after the bite having been driven there by my brother. Once fluids and antibiotics were administered, the drunk-like symptoms subsided, but the pain continued. The medical folks didn't want to knock me out with pain meds as they needed me lucid in order to be monitored properly. Approx 8 hours after the bite I was finally give pain meds and was able to rest. I was monitored for another 24 hrs or so before being released. One quick, cautionary visit about a week after the bite was the only follow up.

No kidding! I saw my first snake of the year yesterday, a garter about 15" long. That's as dangerous as they get here!

Of course, who needs poisonous snakes when they have Bigfoot!

Are you sure about the snakes? One variant of the Prairie Rattler is named oreganus as a subspecies, as I recall. That probably refers to its presence there. Perhaps not quite where you live in Oregon, though.

They do....smell just lke a fresh cut watermelon with a very slight difference....kinda like a meth lab, especially the P2P labs,once you smell it you'll never forget it....the madder they get the more they smell...

Oregon does have rattlers, just not here on the coast. In fact, I recently gave my sister a small box filled with rattles I collected when I lived in Eastern Oregon.

Those are non-poisonious snakes...scare the dickens out of ya but they're sorta like water kingsnakes or "coachwhips"...they dispose of lots of vermin and are a good thing to have around

They are just testing Darwinian theory..... I'd bet money they go around picking up old boards/signs/siding just to see what's under it!

I spent my formative years in Wenatchee....my visa is still valid.

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

The Northern Pacific Rattlesnake does include much of Oregon in its range. (Crotalus viridus oreganus)

I grabbed, "US Guide to Venomous Snakes and their Mimics", by Scott Shupe from the bookcase and he cited the range as encompassing eastern Washington, parts of Idaho, and the northern two-thirds of California as well as much of Oregon.

Although I cannot determine the degree of toxicity as readily as I can that for the Southern subspecies, Helleri, it must be aassumed that it is a dangerous snake.

The Southern Pacific rattler has been known to cause a sharp drop in blood platelets and other grave systemic symptoms and is one of the more dangerous varieties in southern California. It can also hybridize with the very virulent Mojave rattler, perhaps the most deadly snake in North America.

If you saw the old ,Animal Planet series featuring Dr. Sean Bush treating snakebites in California, many of his patients were envenomated by the Helleri subspecies, and some barely dodged death. I feel sure that had they had a doctor less skilled in the specialization of dealing with snakebite as Dr. Bush, they wolud have died.

Be careful up there, and be glad that you don't have as many rattler species and numbers as we do in Texas. Apart from some rather obscure ones, we have both the Eastern and Western Diamondbacks and the dreaded Mojave version. Not to mention copperheads, water moccaasins, and coral snakes...

My experience also. Been bit one time back in 1982. Didn't see the snake or feel the bite, but it was in an area frequented by coperheads and other non-venomous snakes historically. (Been owned by my family for 75 years.)

Was puting up a fence through a honey-suckle covered area, and on several occasions knelt down to work on the botttom wires. Finished, went in the house and took a shower, and noticed two puncture wounds on the side of my knee. Pointed them out to my wife, and said that it looked like a snake bite. Left home, drove about 30 minutes to my college and sat in a 3 hour class for about an hour and a half. Went to stand up and my knee didn't want to work. Looked down, and it looked like a soccer ball was in my blue jeans where my knee should have been. After class, I drove home and stopped by my sisters house. She was an ER nurse at the time. Told her I'd been snake bit several hours earlier, and she looked and said it was too late to do anything now. She said that if I went to the ER they would just watch me for several hours to make sure I didn't have any more severe reactions.

Pain wasn't all that bad. It took about a week for the swelling and stiffiness to work out, but no other damage. I didn't feel the bite at all. However those red wasps I stirred up that same afternoon --I knew as soon as they hit me that I'd been stung. Those are some hot buggers!

I too have occasionally smelled rattlesnakes that I hadn't seen. The scent is unpleasant, not as acrid as skunk scent, nor so foul as that from garter or hognosed snakes that I handled as a kid. Here's what Klauber has to say, from Rattlesnakes, the still definitive natural history reference:

"Some items in the rattler's defense arsenal are used rarely and are not a part of the customary defense posture. Most snakes are equipped with a pair of musk or scent glands in the tail. The purpose of the glands is not known with certainty, and the use may differ in different kinds of snakes, although from the exceedingly offensive odor of the discharge in many genera and the fact that they are excreted when the snakes are handled, it may be assumed that they comprise a defense mechanism."

I have not only smelled, but seen the fairly forceful discharge of this musk, while handling decapitated but still-living Western Diamondbacks, c. atrox. The smell is pungent, unpleasant, and not quite like any other odor in my repetoire of olfactory experience. My advice is bifurcated, like snakes' tongues --- skin snakes outdoors, not on the kitchen counter, and very literally, watch your step if you're close enough to smell them...

M75rig,
Have been bitten twice, once I knew about and one I didn't know about until later. When I was a kid we were swimming in the "Baptising hole" in the creek and one followed me from the culvert out. Luckily snakes aren't real fast at striking under water. Wound up with two cuts across my knee where the fangs went. No problem from that one. The second one I was removing some construction trash when I was building the upstairs of my house. Got this large numb area on my side. While I was showering I noticed two red dots on my side and a large red area. Figured that after that long it wasn't going to kill me so I just put up with the numbness for a few days and it went away. Snakes I can avoid but red wasps and yellow jackets will send me to the Doc in short order. Was forty years old when I developed an allergy to the stings.
Larry

In 1990, I attended "snake school" as part of training at Ft Narai in Lopburi, Thailand, joint training exercise -- we sat in bleachers as Thai troops brought out various snakes and taught us -- I had read an issued field guide on kraits, cobras and similar SE Asia species --
but nothing prepares you for the first king cobra that you see --
they pull this 12 ft king cobra out of a secured box, lay it on the ground, and it reared up with perhaps 6-7 ft still on the ground in a loose coil, and about 5-6 ft of cobra swaying in an almost vertical stance -- made a deep impression on me.

My first jump (we went thru their jump school) -- I almost landed on a snake -- we were jumping MC-1's, I had turned into the wind for final 200 ft and readying for PLF, when I saw a snake on the DZ as I was prepping for landing -- I grabbed the risers, dumped a little air and somehow avoided the snake or he avoided me -- have no clue what kind it was -- have never forgotten that .

My buddy Wally (our *mushroom expert*) and I went fishing on Lake Wapanocca several years back. We wanted to rent a boat - The boat rental guy had a bunch of boats turned upside down at the lake's edge.
We gave him our money and headed for the boats.
He said, "Wait till my son gets back in a few minutes and he'll get you a boat."
I told him - "Don't bother him, we can get a boat ourselves."
He said, "You might want to wait for him - He has snake boots on and you don't".
I'll bet there were at least 6 Cotton Mouths under the boat he flipped over.
A bit later one fell out of a tree right into the boat with us.
I guess the aluminum boat was too hot cause he left straight away.
Fun day on the lake

I was Crappie fishing with a friend that stutters when he's nervous or excited. Ben somehow got his line around a tree on my end of the boat and his lure stuck to the tree. I could just see the lure and was reaching for it when I heard; "Bi Bi Bi Bi"
I looked at Ben and said "Calm down - What?"
"BIG SNAKE - Right By Your Hand!"
Another Moccasin - A quick flip with a paddle and he flew maybe 20 feet, hit the water and headed right back at me. Poor old snake didn't make it

__________________
In dog years I'm dead.

Mojave Desert..... carry a 12 gauge.

__________________
A closed mouth gathers no foot