I took a day off work yesterday to go to court. I was subpoenaed in a case where five misguided youths botched a home invasion and got caught. One of them had my Glock 31 pistol, which had been stolen in a burglary from my home months earlier. Ironically, one of those youths and his vehicle matched the description of our burglar. Odd, huh? I would have to testify to the stolen gun only.

Nearly a year and a half later, these five jerks go to court, where the assistant prosecutor tells me they are all likely going to plea bargain, but then their attorney asks for and receives a continuance.

Why? What could they possibly need more time for? Why would the judge grant this? Five armed people follow a man home, force him into his house and rob him only to realize his family is downstairs watching T.V. and take off.

Why, after all this time, are they not held accountable? Why not demand a plea or revoke their bail and hold them until the next trial date (2/11/13)? Why continue to hold my Glock as evidence in this case if the case will not be diligently pursued? Why did I lose a day of pay for all this?

Also, why are witnesses and defendants not separated in a courtroom? The guy who most likely broke into my home was sitting about five feet from me on the same row.

You always hear that the courts are overbooked. Yeah, from what I saw it is the fault of judges, prosecutors, and the defendants attorneys.

The reason for all of the things you mentioned is because our system is designed to protect the rights of the accused. The victim has no rights in a criminal trial. That's not just some hyperbole, it's true. You, as a victim, don't have the right to a speedy trial. Other systems, such as Germany, are set up to protect the rights of the victim over the accused. Not here.

I suspect the attorneys on here will chime in, but it strikes me that unless the judges allow at least two or three continuances these days, the defendants are likely to scream that they were denied "due process". A big factor in all this is that too often the defence attorneys are court appointed and overwhelmed with work.

You are in Georgia and I can't speak to your particular experience.

But, I can speak a bit about continuances. If the defense attorney asked for one and if the Court heard his request and granted it, then the Judge must have believed it was necessary (or that he/she really had to grant it).

The problem is, even if it wasn't justified, if the defense made the motion and set forth good grounds and the continuance was denied and his client was convicted, an appellate court could well reverse the convictions and, 8 months, a year, a year and a half from now, you'd be back in court doing it all over again.

I can't speak for that prosecutor, but the way you said what he apparently said, the defendant(s) may have received an offer for a sentence from the court at some previous hearing and the prosecutor thought it likely he (they) would take it.

Placing the defendants in jail again when they have done nothing to violate the terms of their release (bond) would be kinda wrong it seems. OTOH, if they were at fault and caused the continuance then remanding them to custody would be fair.

The courts in our state and the Federal Courts I have practiced in are open and generally seating is first come, first served. I can't think of an effective way to segregate witnesses, defendants, victims, families and spectators other than I would locate my victims, witnesses, etc. and get them all together somewhere if possible. In a crowded courtroom, with everyone arriving separately at different times, it is very hard to do.

I am sure none of this makes you feel any better about your experience, but I hope it makes some sense to you.

Bob

You THINK the system is lacking? My mom worked in a courthouse for 16 years. I can tell you damn well the system is lacking. The accused will always have more rights than you, and if they get to jail, the will have about the same amount of rights you do, and cheaper too.

The system is set up to keep as many lawyers as possible, as fully employed as possible, for as long as possible. It is no accident that the U.S. has the largest numbers of lawyers per capita of any nation in the world. No other advanced civilized nation needs as many lawyers to function as does the U.S.

You guys have nailed it, if they want to do something for "safety of our society" how about a quick trial and locking thugs like this up for about 25 years for being felons with a firearm, no plea bargans, no BS about they did it because they eat Twinkies or their parents spanked them when they were kids etc. Lets get realy tough on the people who DO use guns in crimes, not the law abiding citizen.

I believe the member lawyers on this forum are the cream of the legal profession. I am not being disrespectful to our members.

As long as the legal clock is running somebody (everybody) is getting paid. When a settlement is reached, trial ended, or justice served, the money clock stops running. Our legal system has no reason to reach a quick settlement. I know of one DUI case that took 7 months to reach a conclusion from traffic stop to case closed. I was not a participant in the case, neither was my check book.

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S&WHF 366

This actually varies by state. In Arizona, victims have a number of rights under the state consitution, including the right to be present and heard at all stages of the proceedings, to be consulted re: plea negotiations and to a speedy disposition.

While this may be true in civil cases in which lawyers bill clients based on an hourly rate, this is generally not the case in criminal matters. Prosecutors and judges are salaried, they have no financial incentive to drag out cases. Private defense attorneys usually bill on a flat fee basis for most criminal matters. Public defenders are often salaried or paid on a flat fee per case basis.

Are there too many delays? Absolutley. But there are a number of reasons, some legit, some not. To use DUI as an example, if it takes the lab six months to test a blood sample due to understaffing/volume, not much the lawyers can do.

Please understand our judicial system is built on laws, that if justice occurs it's simply a by-product. Over the past decades our society has turned to the courts to "right every wrong", basically to act as a referee in behavior and disputes that were once settled locally. LEO went from being seen as part of the community to an adversarial relationship. Those of us old enough remember settling disputes on a regular basis. I've taken more teens home (for driving offenses) and watched more licenses suspended over a coffee table (by a parent), than I can count. How often does that happen today? Our society is changing, we are living in communities but living apart, without the mechanisms to resolve conflicts. Hence "I'll see you in court", better known as the theater of the absurd. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

Ever been on jury duty? Court in my little slice of heaven doesn't really work on Monday or Friday and the other 3 days maybe a couple hours a day, perhaps 20 hours a week is an honest guess. I don't know, I used to work 40 hours wonder why the criminal justice system can't? This country has no problem tinkling all over my rights but we must handle every multiple convicted felon with kid gloves.

What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 100?

Your Honor.

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Back to back World War Champs.

The biggest problem and the cause for the must burnout in the legal profession is.............................................clients.

The criminal justice system would work perfectly except for one thing....................defendants. Many times I have worked out a plea with a client the DA and gotten approval from the judge. A great plea a great and a truly fair resoloution to a case. The victim has approved and everyone is happy to put this one aside and move on. We've spent pretty much half the day working it out on what we call "pre trial day" where there are no jurors, witness, etc summoned-just the players in order to try to move the system along. The general public doesn't see this. They're not supposed to as there is no need for this. Only when it can't be worked out are the jury and witness summoned for the ultimate decisiom-THE TRIAL.
So we get this case taken care of and then Knucklehead decides that he has to "talk to his momma" to let her know he's going off to jail-he simply won't plea untill he talks to his momma and no amount of cajoling will change his mind. SO reluctantly we move on to the nexyt case pretty much sure of what is going to happen. And you know what??? After we've moved on to the next case (or two or twenty) with knucklehead hopefully in the bank-we get to plea day the few days before trial and then knucklehead after takling with family and the jail house lawyers decides that his lawyer is selling him out-doesn't want to plead, wants his trial and wants to fire his lawyer. Well, it blows up, the Judge with veins popping tells knucklehead that he ain't getting a continuance, he's going to trial and he ain't firing his lawyer. The poor DA then has to stand up and say that he has called off his witnesses anticipating a plea and has a whole new set of witnesses for a new trial ready to go. SO now-we're a few days out-everyone has to shift gears put knuckleheads trial back on fast track and then we get to trial day, continue all the rest of the trials so we can try knucklehead and then guess what? Knucklehead decides to plea and we've got nothing left to try. And we're all standing around with our %&^$ in our hand, the jurors think we're all idiots and somehow it is all my fault.

The criminal justice system sucks-but I have not figured out a better way. Problem is the numbers-For any given trial cycle the felony docket runs about 170-200 cases. The DA is required to certify certain cases as trial ready-only these cases have any possibility of being tried in that particular cycle. This list runs about 60 cases. Of those 60 cases approximately 45-50 are the responsibility of the PDO. Of those cases approximately 5-15 are victim cases. We have one Public defender lawyer to handle this docket plus me to supervise, ride heard, take conflicts, put out fires, etc. This is done of a three month rotation with three judges taking a month. Each judge has their public defender but since I supervise, I am there every month for all of the court dates. One can only prepare for so much
It's a bit overwhelming at times but if the general public knew what we were dealing with , perhaps they would be a bit more understanding. Or you could vote in more taxes, we could hire enough people to put in a rocket docket and move cases the way you want us to move them. But then I don't think y'all would want to pay the price on that one.

In short-the system does suck but we're doing the best we can. Problem is no matter how good system we get, we're still gonna have to deal with defendants and those guys have proven time and time again that they could screw up a ball bearing.

And that my friends is yet another reason why lawyers drink scotch-it doesn't give us a hangover so bad that we can't work through it the next day

What else do you guys want to know about this most honorable profession????????????

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Forum consigliere

Caj,

THANKS for an understandable explanation.

Bekeart

Caj, I agree but let me add a question. Where did these cases come from? In 1985 the average PO (Probation Officer) in our county supervised 65 cases. By the mid 90's, over 200 and by 2000 that number was around 240. These cases came primarily from "advocacy groups", i.e. MADD wanting tougher sentences on drunk drivers, Domestic Violence groups, harsher sentences for violence against women, Sex Assault groups wanting jail time for sex offenders, Animal Rights Groups wanting punishment for people abusing animals, Drug Abuse Prevention groups, more time for dealers, and the list goes on. The old saying "kill 'em all and let God sort it out" became, for LEOs, "cite 'em all to court and let the judge sort it out". Disputes, conflicts in the community that were settled among the parties is a thing of the past. By default the court has become our arbitrator with more case to adjudicate and we complain when they can't keep up with the caseload.

Very reasoned and concise explaination of the criminal justice system, of which I know little regarding the nuts and bolts. I spent over twenty years doing civil, personal injury, property damage litigation, from the defense side. Now that litigation really sucks, is full of fraud, shady deals and shady lawyers.

A lot of modern courthouses are set up with a number of conference rooms that open onto a lobby or hallway that serves a number of courtrooms. Attorneys can meet with their clients and witnesses in relative privacy. Prosecutors who are sensitive to the sensibilities of uneasy witnesses can segregate them away from defendants and their associates.

Of course, not all courthouses are set up this way, but in any case, the prosecutor will usually have access to some private space where witnesses can wait until called.

There a lot of reasons to grant a continuance, but an overarching consideration is the reluctance of everyone, particularly judges, to try cases. Trials, especially jury trials, are difficult and time-consuming. They interfere with the real business of the system, which is to resolve disputes. A trial in the judge's courtroom could displace scores of matters that could (and should) be resolved short of trial.

The system is organized first for the convenience of the judges. Juries usually get treated pretty well, except for all the sitting around. Everybody else, attorneys, parties, and witnesses take a lower priority. Prosecutors and victim advocates can try to help victims through the process. Defense attorneys can usually wait to call their witnesses into court at least until the case is actually going to trial. Prosecutors, OTOH, have the burden of going forward first, so they may need to have their witnesses ready at hand in case their case actually proceeds.

Remember that, even on a trial calendar, many cases will not get tried. They will get assigned out to judges until there are no more judges available. Everybody left goes home.

Cajun Lawyer speaks truth.

Most underfunded/most needed is juvenile court. You literally don't want to know.

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and what his trumpet saith

I had a similar experiance but it would take a hour to type out the basic details. Basicly I had my truck stolen and that led to my house burglared of many guns. A young woman was involved that also stold a jc penneys card I had just received in the mail, that was left in the truck. Do to my own footwork she was arrested on that. I went to watch her in court. (she had just got out of jail for a similar crime a few days before I got hit).
The judge gave her effectively a couple months and nothing was said about my truck or guns. I got up and started to blurt out that she also had been behind my truck and gun thefts, was told to shut up and given the bums rush out of court! The truck hasnt showed up in the ten years and only one ruined shotgun that some perp sawed the barrel off and stock did.
I lost many thousands of dollars worth of family guns. I hate the system, but as cage said, who`s got a better one?

OK-so what's your point We have met the enemy and he is us!

I'd rather represent an ax murdering sociopath than some of the gut wrenching horror stories that crop up in Juvenile Court. Now THAT will get you to drinking

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Forum consigliere

Here's what happens when Knucklehead decides, after listening to Momma, Uncle Bubba, and a few jailhouse lawyers, that he is being railroaded (even though guilty as sin) and against advice of counsel "ain't gonna take no damn plea." Bring it on! Go to trial! When he is found guilty all of his advisers are shocked. They just knew he would win. Knucklehead is shocked even more because the judge has just sentenced him to 40 years more than he would have gotten with the plea bargain. The cops, presecutors, and victims are happy and other knuckleheads hear what happened and decide to go ahead and plead guilty. You have to try one every so often. It makes an example out of them and keeps the plea bargains rolling along.

[QUOTE=CAJUNLAWYER;136978386]OK-so what's your point We have met the enemy and he is us!


Point is...........we now understand three things. (1) We know what the problem is. (2) We know there's nothing we can do about it. (3) For those of us in, or retired from the system, it's like the circus.............the Greatest Show on Earth.

FWIW, my mother remembered a day (in New York in those days) when it was illegal to make a plea bargain.
It did keep the DA from overcharging, I guess.

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and what his trumpet saith

I got a jury duty notice about a week ago. I doubt they will select me if it gets that far. I'm not what you would call a defense attorney's ideal juror. I learned from my dad that although you may not actually be guilty of a particular offense, you are not innocent.

"Victim's rights" are fairly universal and most places have "victim's advocates", but that doesn't mean they have rights with regard to the charging process, trial or sentencing as far as influence. They may be allowed to read a victims' impact statement at sentencing, but they don't have a constitutional right to approve or deny a particular sentence, even though they may be consulted and have some influence with the prosecutor. But they don't have a "right" to do that as outlined in the constitution or any amendment. Nor do they have a right to testify at trial or deny or approve warrants.

Our system is absolutely set up to preserve the rights of the accused, not the victims. It was meant to do that. It did not evolve into that type of system. Other systems in other countries are the opposite.

I appreciate the replies, especially the detailed ones. I do not understand why career criminals have any rights. I am tired of paying taxes to support men and women who refuse to become a worthwhile member of society. I favor execution for those who continue to violate the law.

One one hand there is the right to a speedy trial, on the other hand the legal system moves like molasses in winter. One bang of the gavel adds months to any process. I was involved in a legal action that took 5 years (I had to recover lost benefits) to resolve and had I decided to go to trial they said I'd probably get a few hundred thousand more but it would take another 3 years.

I had a situation where I took a "deal" offered by the County.
I wish I would have gone to court.

I did pocket $8,800.00 & change, after my Attorney got his third, which
wasn't too bad considering I only spent 12 hr's locked up on a false arrest.

I won't go into details, other than to say that every Police Officer that was
involved was on "my side," which sounds kind of strange, considering.

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Ogy

One thing you learn as a young officer is that the Courts are not run for the Convience of the Citizens, the Criminals or the Officers.

They are run for the Convience of the Judge and the Attorneys.

Rule 303