A bit of history, 'Carbine' Williams

rwsmith · Apr 16, 2013

Have you heard of David M. 'Carbine' Williams?

David Marshall Williams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He developed his ideas while in prison and afterwards he was employed by Winchester. The M1 Carbine mechanism was made using his ideas, the 'floating chamber' and the 'short stroke piston'.

There is a 1952 movie starring Jimmy Stewart called "Carbine Williams"

TACC1 · Apr 17, 2013

Thanks for the link. New knowledge is always welcome.
TACC1

jimmyj · Apr 17, 2013

Hi:
In the 1960-1980 era I collected U.S. M1 Carbines and the accounterments. IIRC there were ten (10) manufacturers of these weapons during WW11. Irwin Peterson and Standard Products being the rare ones. I printed up a brief history of "Carbine Williams" that I displayed on my Gun Show table along with the weapons.

rockquarry · Apr 17, 2013

Don't know whether it's still available, but there's at least one book that's been published about his life, "Carbine - The Story of David Marshall Williams" by Ross E. Beard, Jr.

JayCeeNC · Apr 17, 2013

Hopefully opoefc will chime in here with some additional info you'll find quite interesting.

TOM BECKWITH · Apr 17, 2013

I remember seeing him - probably late 60s - at the Charlotte, NC shows selling M-1 Carbines with his signature on them. Would bet someone here may have one.

sigp220.45 · Apr 17, 2013

Williams was tried for the murder of Deputy Alfred Pate - he pled not guilty by reason of insanity. Jury deadlocked 11-1 to convict. He pled guilty to Second Degree Murder to avoid a second trial.

If you read accounts of the trial, it was pretty clear he did it. One of the Deputies saw him, and some of his cohorts testified against him. It wasn't a gun battle - the cops had dismantled Williams' still, and were driving it back to town when Williams fired at them from the woods.

In a trial of a co-defendant, Williams admitted he had fired at the cops.

I'm glad he did good things later.

Alfred Jackson Pate

shouldazagged · Apr 17, 2013

As I recall, the movie was pretty good. But Stewart didn't make many stinkers.

Ranger514 · Apr 17, 2013

Cool movie. Not sure how accurately Hollywood portrayed Williams, but I remember in the movie, the warden let Jimmy Stewart test fire the carbine. I was a kid and thought it was cool that he dunked it in a trough of mud and water before demonstrating that it would fire reliably.

MTS Cop · Apr 17, 2013

The guy killed a cop. I could care less what he designed.

G-Mac · Apr 17, 2013

sigp220.45 said:
Williams was tried for the murder of Deputy Alfred Pate - he pled not guilty by reason of insanity. Jury deadlocked 11-1 to convict. He pled guilty to Second Degree Murder to avoid a second trial.

If you read accounts of the trial, it was pretty clear he did it. One of the Deputies saw him, and some of his cohorts testified against him. It wasn't a gun battle - the cops had dismantled Williams' still, and were driving it back to town when Williams fired at them from the woods.

In a trial of a co-defendant, Williams admitted he had fired at the cops.

I'm glad he did good things later.

Alfred Jackson Pate

sigp220.45, Thank you for posting about Deputy Pate. I read the whole link that you attached. It's nice to know "the rest of the story".

cjw3 · Apr 17, 2013

rockquarry said:
Don't know whether it's still available, but there's at least one book that's been published about his life, "Carbine - The Story of David Marshall Williams" by Ross E. Beard, Jr.

I have a copy of that signed by the author for a great uncle of mine, also a Beard but no relation.

There was an article in The American Rifleman a few years back that took exception with the alleged extent of Williams' work in the actual development of the M-1 carbine. "Teamwork" was apparently an alien concept and Winchester was heartily glad to be rid of him after the work was completed.

Faulkner · Apr 17, 2013

An in depth study of the develop of the M1 carbine at Winchester would reveal that Williams was more of a hinderance to the develop of it rather than an benefit. He was reportedly whinny, childish, and moody and the Winchester team leader, Edwin Pugsley, hated having him on the team. The only thing he had going for him was he held the patent on the short stroke piston.

I really liked the movie with Jimmy Stewart, but it left the impression that Williams invented the carbine when he didn't . . . unlike John C. Garand, who did indeed invent the M1 rifle.

gregintenn · Apr 17, 2013

We have a couple of examples of the fruits of his labor, and really enjoy shooting them. I've yet to see anyone shoot one who didn't smile.

cockerpoodle2 · Apr 18, 2013

As good a place as any to ask:
How do you pronounce "carbine" (car-bine, rhymes with nine, or car-bean, rhymes with keen) ?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Cockerpoodle

cjw3 · Apr 18, 2013

cockerpoodle2 said:
As good a place as any to ask:
How do you pronounce "carbine" (car-bine, rhymes with nine, or car-bean, rhymes with keen) ?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Cockerpoodle

All I've ever heard is "car-bean". I think our cousins across the pond make it rhyme with "nine", IIRC some movies where it was used.

A little known factoid about another pronunciation: Garand, to rhyme with "parent"/accent on the first syllable...according to General Hatcher who got it from Garand himself.

That's one you NEVER hear correctly

.

rwsmith · Apr 18, 2013

cjw3 said:
Garand, to rhyme with "parent"/accent on the first syllable...according to General Hatcher who got it from Garand himself.

That's one you NEVER hear correctly .

I suppose that his name pronunciation got disassociated because to many people it was first known as the United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 and later it was just called Rifle, Caliber .30, M1, and also abbreviated as US Rifle, Cal. .30, M1.

I guess we could call the AR-15 the 'Stoner', pronounced stah-NER after Eugene Stone.

jspick · Apr 18, 2013

MTS Cop said:
The guy killed a cop. I could care less what he designed.

I take offense that you think cops are above the ordinary citizen who pays your wages! They are not and they deserve no more respect than an ordianary citizen!

I thought the movie was good. I have it here at home and watch it every now and then.
Funny how people can trash a guy who they are jealous of!

john

Bekeart · Apr 19, 2013

Have a signed copy

Bought a signed copy long ago at Tulsa show.

Need to dig it out. Somewhere in one of several boxes of gun related books.

Bekeart

rockquarry said:
Don't know whether it's still available, but there's at least one book that's been published about his life, "Carbine - The Story of David Marshall Williams" by Ross E. Beard, Jr.

WardenRoss · Apr 19, 2013

jspick said:
I take offense that you think cops are above the ordinary citizen who pays your wages! They are not and they deserve no more respect than an ordianary citizen!...

What???........................................what's that all about?????? I mean like.....dang!!!

A bit of history, 'Carbine' Williams

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