Who knows about Winchester rifles?

OK, so I'm in one of my local pawnshops and greatly admiring an old Winchester Model 90 rifle. The tag said $950. I thought that was crazy since this one is just a shooter. The owner said to make him an offer and I said we are way too far apart for me to even offer. Long story short he said $300 and I said sold. I know "less" than nothing about old rifles. So my questions are...
When was this thing made? It is a Winchester Model 90 (not 1890). The serial is 651345 with an "A" underneath the serial number. The caliber is .22 Long Rifle. From what I can tell off the internet it will only feed the "marked" caliber. 22 Long Rifle only. Right?
What does the "A" indicate, if anything?
It appears to be a take-down model however the large knurled knob is missing and has a generic bolt instead. I will try to find one of the knobs soon. Other than that it appears to be all original and in working order. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet or even take a picture.
Any info I can get would be greatly appreciated.
And...whats the difference between an 1890 and a 90 (and don't say the 18).

Thanks, Roger

A quick search will turn up the model 90 Winchester is in 22 WRF. check the barrel closer it should be marked.

The 1890 were in 22caliber but some shot shorts only, some in longs only. Others took 22 shorts, longs &long rifles. The 22 wrf is another beast. It's 22 Winchester rim fire. It's shorter than the WMR. That's Winchester magnum rimfire.

Nope Big Bill I actually believe the Model 90's came in more than one type of .22. At least they appear to using a quick search on GB. Mine is NOT in WRF. It is long rifle. I also see they came in .22 short.
I can't wait to plink with this rifle.

Roger

According to my book your rifle was made in 1922.

I have a model 1890 in s,l,lr. These are neat pump rifles. The 22 short were shooting gallery rifles.

I just purchased alot of these for my new grandson. The turn of the century single shots are neat too. Look for a savage, remington and a Stevens too.

Check your chamber before shooting, a lot of these rifles seen a lot of use with older black powder 22 lr shells and the lack of cleaning lead to worn out chambers and throats.

Go to guns international, These pump 22's are worth big $$$.

The 'A' is for the Third (3rd) style of 1890 receiver that they started using in 1906. That has the most familiar outside visible locking lug bolt. The earlier versions had the bolt lugs recessed inside the frame and not visible on the side.

They used the 'A' marking til about the mid 1920's then dropped it all together. Model 1906 pumps were marked 'B' after the serial number in the same time period to keep them separate,,,though for a short time they too were marked 'A'. How's that for confusing.

The Model 1890 became the Model 90 in early 1919. Nothing more to it than that,,a change in model designation by the Winchester brass.

The early 1890 was caliber specific IIRC. Late 1890 and the Model 90 was offered in 22S,L,LR.
Anyway, if marked '22 Long Rifle',,that's what the rifle is supposed to be chambered for and just as importantly that is the specific cartridge carrier that is supposed to be in place. The 22S,L,LR carrier is different from the caliber specific ones.
Cal specific carriers are marked as to their caliber on the right side and can be read when the gun is TD'd. Not uncommon to find mixed parts,,bbls,carriers ect.

Your serial number is probably an early 1920 production (frame production). But assembly & shipment could have been later as with most factorys,inventory sometimes sat in their warehouse for a time.
The .22LR cal production didn't appear till 1919.

The TD screw/knob is a fairly common part w/ gunparts dealers. Either an (18)90 or a 1906 Model will fit.
There is also an extremely tiny pin that holds the TD screw in the frame but yet still allows it to be backed out. About the dia of a paperclip and barely larger than the screw diameter.
They can be a pain to remove and/or replace. The TD screw will work just fine w/o it,but be aware that it can be unscrewed and completely removed from the rifle and dropped/lost w/o that small pin to secure it.

EXCELLENT information! Thank you all!

Roger

I'm going to have to dissagree just a bit. The 1890-90s were all made
for one specific caliber, 22 Short, 22 Long, 22 LR and 22 WRF. The
carrier with the pivoting stop that allowed use of the Short, Long and
LR was introduced in the 1906 model. Whatever it says on the barrel
is what it was originally chambered for. Naturally many of the old guns
are not in original condition and some made for 22 Short will have
been rechambered for LR. The original barrel was octagonal and 24"
long but some will have been rebarreled with round barrels from the
62 which came out in 1932. The most common problem with the old
22s in general is the condition of the bore. Early 22 cartridges were
loaded with black powder and many old 22 rifles have rough pitted
bores. They are useless as shooters because of the soft lead bullets
of 22 ammo. Not to pick on the OP but I am amazed at the number
of people who will buy old milsurps and old 22 rifles without a close
examination of the bore. Anyone looking for a shooter in a model of
any gun that has been used with corrosive ammo cannot buy based
on exterior condition alone no matter how nice it looks. Hope your
gun turns out to be a nice one. If so it was a steal for $300.

Roger, I have an '06 B #146xxx in nickel,
so all I can say is I "thought" the 1890 was for shorts, and the 90 came in the three different s,l,lr and the '06 fed all three.
300 is a good deal.


Got any more Heavy Dutys?


Jim

alwslate said:

I'm going to have to dissagree just a bit. The 1890-90s were all made
for one specific caliber, 22 Short, 22 Long, 22 LR and 22 WRF. The
carrier with the pivoting stop that allowed use of the Short, Long and
LR was introduced in the 1906 model. .....

Click to expand...

You're right!,,,The S,L,LR carrier intro'd with the 1906 Model in that year (which was also the introduction of the 3rd Style frame used on both),,but the Model 1890 continued to be each mfg'd for a specific 22RF cartridge.


Many bbls and carriers have been switched around over the years and Short and Long RF carriers bored out to take LR ammo.
The 22 Short (and Long) bbl rifling was a slower twist and larger bore & groove diameters than the 22LR also.
Rechambering a 22Short or 22 Long to 22LR and deepening the carrier so it feeds is do-able but the performance on target may be less than stellar with the slow twist and .224groove.

W/P proof marked wasn't used till 1908(?) IIRC and 'P' in a circle as a proof mark on a bbl is a mailorder parts replacement bbl that Winchester sent out from the parts dept. Outside fitted.

The bbls are very often marked with a date (2 digit year) on the bottom flat right up close to the frame. Very difficult to see unless the mag tube is pulled forward. Also on the bottom at the breech end is the original caliber stamped lightly (.22 L RIFLE,,,ect)
The bbl date is just that,,the mfg yr of the bbl (not necessarily of the rifle),but it can give a somewhat close idea of wether the bbl is original or a much later replacement.

If the bbl has been relined or rechambered and re-marked on top to 22LR from 22Short or 22LONG,,many times the original .22 SHORT or 22LONG caliber marking will still be seen on the bottom flat.
Sometimes they take the time to draw file it off,,but you can usually see where it's been done.

To pull the magazine tube forward, the cross pin in the rear magazine ring needs to be punched out. Then the tube can be (grudgingly) slid forward.
Try to pull it straight forward w/o twisting it as that can leave scratches on the tube as it pulls free from the rings. You only need it to come forward an inch or less to see the bbl date (if there is one). There'll also be inspectors marks there.

No need to remove anything else like the slide handle unless you're taking it apart for repair. Slide the tube back into position and replace the cross pin.
**There's a small flat spring sandwiched inbetw the front ring and the mag tube,,about 1 1/4 long. That's a fiction spring to give some resistance to the inner mag tube when it's drawn out so it doesn't just fall back and forth. Make sure that spring stays in place or you replace it with the tube when reassembling.
I leave the inner mag tube in place to reinforce the outer thin tube when pulling on it like that. Just back it out a couple inches so the follower is up inside the tube when replacing.

All that just if you're nosey about a bbl date and a caliber marking that may not even be there!
I've noticed the markings on 20's and 30's rifles more than anything. Probably a couple bbls around here to check on.

**added,,A well known collector once told me that Winchester made the 1890 in caliber 22CB Cap also. Marked 22Extra Short.,,and was for export to Europe only. No US sales.
I asked him if he had one in his impressive collection and he said of course not,,they shipped them all to Europe.

All model 1890/90s were caliber specific, none were ever chambered for S,L,LR. Winchester dropped the 18 from the 1890s, 1897s, 1894s and all because the 1800 prefix sounded old when they were well into the 20th century. The 1906s were all .22 short for the first two years of production, then they were all chambered for S, L, LR.

The model 90 in .22 long rifle is one of the most desireable and hardest to find. I have every caliber 1890/90 except the .22LR. and wish I did. There were a few model 90s made late in production with round barrels, but with all the proper 90 roll marks.

You are very fortunate.

Sometimes these rifles shoot very well with terrible looking bores.