So I was having a conversation today regarding the regulations for personal sidearms in the U.S. military after reading the post regarding a Model of 1917 that was used in Afghanistan and purchased by a forum member. Just to be clear, I'm using 'personal sidearm(s)' to refer to a firearm, probably a hand gun, allowed to be carried and used on duty but not issued by the government. Not wanting to spread incorrect information I was hoping that one of you could answer these questions:

1. What parameters must a personal sidearm conform to? Are there regulations regarding make, model, caliber etc.

2. Since expanding ammunition is forbidden, do you simply buy compliant ammunition at a LGS or have it shipped to you by retailer or family member if deployed?

3. If using a caliber commonly used by the military such as 9mm, do they officially allow govt ammo to be used in a personal sidearm (I'm sure if it isn't it's still done)?

4. Do you have to qualify or in some way demonstrate competence with the specific sidearm?

If you can think of anything additional to add that I didn't think to ask about feel free to add it as well. Also, I know many of the forum members are veterans, I would be interested to hear if you carried such a firearm and if so, what you carried.

Thanks very much.

It is my understanding that you cannot carry or use handguns other than what is issued to you. Perhaps it is different for Flag Rank or perhaps ,spec ops. I do not speak tho with any absolute knowledge one way or the other. Joe.

Think it all depends on your unit and its chain of command. I made a very nice very functional and dimensionally correct K Bar with damascus blade for a relative who was not allowed to carry it in her position as a USMC helicopter crew chief and ya she flew real combat missions.

What Joe said is what I saw in the 21 years I spent in the USAF...

However, during the first Gulf War two of the pilots in my squadron had to ferry an airplane from our desert base to Rhein Main AB in Germany and back. While in Germany they bought 9mm pistols (Sigs) and ammo at the base rod & gun club.

They kept the guns hidden in their gear and would carry them instead of the "Barney Fife" 38 special S&W model 15s the rest of us were issued.

Definitely not sanctioned or approved by the leadership, but done at least on this occasion.

Edmo

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TRUTH: Don't delete my posts!

IN Desert Storm, 101st Airborne medics were allowed to carry personally owned 1911's that the Army/Division sold them at a good price. They were sold 4 boxes of ball ammo and holster and cleaning kit at the same time. Many individuals had BUG's that were not authorized and non-compliant ammo that would have landed in serious trouble. But somebody had to be looking and somebody had to file paper work. In a real combat zone (back then) that didn't happen. Now days; If you live within so many miles of your base (I think 20), you have to have the base commanders written permission to have them in your home! That was a Clinton White House Directive. That hasn't seemed to stop deranged shooters at Fort Hood. Ivan

As far as I know, there aren't any units (except maybe SOCOM) that allow Personally Owned Weapons in a combat zone. The hard part wouldn't be getting the gun there though, it would be getting it back through the Customs inspection. Personally, I would look long and hard at any claims about a gun that was alledgedly carried in Iraq or Afghanistan. I'm not saying that there aren't any, but I will say that the statue of limitations probably hasn't run out yet, so anyone that actually did carry it against regulations and then illegally reimported it probably is still keeping their head down...

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Proud anachronism

As far as I know, the Army has never sold small arms to its soldiers, unless it was a General officer at his retirement and that for the pistol he was issued when he was promoted to Brigadier General. As far as the medics, they are issued small arms, so there's no reason for them to have to go out and buy a weapon. Not saying some soldiers didn't carry personally owned weapons (look at al the Rambo knives), but there was never a solider that wasn't authorized an individual weapon, be it a pistol or rifle.

As far as personally owned weapons on post, it's true that troops living in the barracks had to store their personally owned weapons (Rambo knives, handguns, rifles, etc.) in the company arms rooms. As a company commander, that was a real pain in my rear when it came time for the monthly arms room inventory and keeping records. But as far as living off post and needing a senior commander's permission to have a weapon in my home, that just isn't true. I did have to register my guns with the post Provost Marshall to bring them on post to shoot at the on-post range. Even at Fort Lee, where I lived on post, I don't recall having to get permission to have them in my quarters. Just had to register them with the Provost Marshall.

I carried my Series 70 Colt on the DMZ in Korea in '81, and as a pay officer in a basic training company at Ft. Knox around '83.

Needless to say, things have changed a lot since then, not always for the better.

There are very few, if any, personally owned weapons being carried. Some special operations units have different weapons for different missions, but there is no official authorization for personal weapons. I'm sure there are some people carrying them, but they (and their commanders) do so at their own risk. Also, at least for the time I was there, there were a number of security contractors in-country and they carried a variety of weapons. It would not be a stretch to confuse a security contractor with some of our special ops guys (or vice versa) and make the assumption that personally owned weapons are authorized.

When I was in Vietnam when not in uniform I carried a colt cobra. When off duty we were required to wear civilian clothes but were not supposed to be bearing arms. But everyone did. There was a Army Senior NCO that carried a matched set of colt 45s. But he made it clear that the guns were not supposed to be carried. He was in charge of the convoys that ran between Dalat City and Cam Rahn Bay a very dangerous job.

our detachment had several weapons that were not issued but were military weapons we carried or kept handy they were Army surplus on loan to the Vietnamese Army, Remington 870 shotguns, the WW II grease gun in 45 cal, several M-1 carbines and a scoped M-14, 2 30 cal. machine guns from WWII and Korea and a M-60 machine gun. The Air Forced issued us M-16s and the S&W 38s.

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Carpriver.

You'll recall that Gen. Patton carried a pair of Colt Single Action Armies in a western style rig. I guess rules and regs were way different back then and, being a general, gave him certain privileges.

My guess is that if you are armed incident to your military duties, the military will issue you what they think you need. While in Viet Nam, I carried a Model 1911 and an M14, both GI issue, of course.

Rules now are much tighter than in the past. The military at times seems almost weapons-phobic.

Contractors in Iraq drew weapons from their employers. My son fought there as both a soldier and later as a contractor. Frankly, his most bitter battles were as a contractor.

In the latter capacity, he carried mostly a Browning Hi-Power MK III as his handgun, as .45 autos were fairly rare and the magazines and ammo were less common than 9mm. His rifle was ether a Colt M-4 or a H-K G-3 that he bought, but was required to leave behind.

As for the 9mm vs. .45 debate, he killed several men with each and the .45 seemed a "little" more effective with the FMJ ammo required. Now a civilian, he owns guns in both calibers, but usually carries a Colt .45 with Federal HST ammo. But even 9mm hardball worked well, if one got solid hits in vital areas. I'm still glad to load my Beretta with HST or Gold Dot. Both are 124 grain Plus P rounds.

In past wars, even when orders precluded it, many men just carried private arms. In, "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo", the author said that he and his crew on the Doolittle mission B-25 all had both pistols and knives of their own, as well as the issued items. I read THAT ONE BASE COMMANDER IN Burma INSISTED ON .45 AUTOS FOR HIS ENLISTED AIRCREW, ALTHOUGH hE WAS REMINDED THAT THE aIR cORPS ISSUEd THEM ONLY TO OFFICERS. (MP'S AND OTHER SLECT PERSONNEL EXCEPTED, OF COURSE.) (Sorry, Caps Lock came on; no time to re-type. But this man prevailed and got the pistols, supposedly for "morale" reasons.

An order in Europe told bomber crews not to carry pistols or large knives. It was certainly ignored by some, probably by many. I don't know how long it was supposed to be in force.

The RAF also didn't arm bomber crews, but in, "Lancaster", the author mentioned that some had pistols, anyway. They probably got them however they could. One top-ranked RAF fighter pilot bummed a Luger from an intelligence officer. It had been taken from captured Luftwaffe crews. I guess he preferred it to an issued .38. His Mosquito was eventually shot down over Denmark, and the Germans who got him weren't happy to see him with that gun, but they didn't shoot him. Another RAF pilot carried a Beretta .32, probably also obtained from captured enemy aircrew.

Patton had just one Colt .45 SAA, a fancy engraved one with which he shot some Mexicans while with Pershing in 1916. His other gun was a S&W .357 with 3.5-inch bbl. He wore smaller guns when not in battle zones, a Colt Detective Spcl. .38, and Colt and Remington .380's.

As a general, he could design his own uniform, within reason, and as such a high ranking officer, he could probably get away with a lot. Generals could receive those smaller Colts on request, and Eisenhower had a snub Colt .38. The Colt Model M .32 or .380 was the normal issue for generals, but those in battle zones frequently wore .45's, instead. Maj. Gen. James Gavin wore not just a .45 but a Randall Model 1 knife and carried a Garand rifle as commander of the 101st Airborne. (May have been the 82nd; I forget which he had and which Ridgeway had)

There are many other examples of private weapons until the first Gulf war. I cannot say here why I think the policy changed. But I wish that some personal arms were still allowed. I think that many troops still carry knives not issued, but local commanders may preclude that. My son had no trouble with a Randall Model 14 and a Marine Ka-Bar in Iraq. Spec Ops troops seem to carry whichever knives they want.

When I was in the USAF in the early 60's stationed in England I had commented to a couple of pilot's about the variety of sidearms I saw pilot's carrying on the flightline. They explained it was up to the Company Commander, who in this case was a gunner and let the pilots carry whatever they wanted (within reason). 1911's were common, as were .357's and of course the issued model 10's & 15's. 9mm was not popular back then. If it was other than a 38 they had to buy their own ammo, but I recall there was .45 available from time to time.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Some Navy helo guy who later wrote gun books said that he carried a Walther P-38. Aha! Gene Gangarosa. I think he served in the 1970's.

I mentioned here in another topic that the pilot who wrote, "Flight of the Intruder" and other books in that series seems to have worn a S&W M-19, which he also had his fictional hero use. His crewmate had a .45 auto and a big knife. This was also in the movie, I think. He said that Naval pilots have a pistol locker in their rooms on the carrier. They do have rooms, not open bays like enlisted personnel. This was for the Vietnam war, where the author flew A-6 Intruders. He was bitter about not having guns on the plane, which was a bomber. He said that if the plane had had guns, he could have done some useful mischief to the enemy with them. But some fighters then carried only missiles, too. Many senior planning and procurement officers are jerks who like the idea of just missiles because they want to be high tech and prestigious. Pilots facing the enemy usually want guns in the plane.

This need was soon proven, and F-4 Phantoms got guns in them. Subsequent fighters also carry guns, usually a rotating barrel Gatling/Vulcan sort.

No US military units are authorized to use personally owned weapons. With that said, many of the less conventional forces have a rather extreme amount of leeway, due to the nature of mission, how they travel, etc.

I carried my fathers 45 on a few missions in Afghanistan, but for 99% of the time I carried the unit issued handgun, for interchangeability/ammo availability/etc.

Deployments put a LOT of wear on firearms... we were typically issued a new rifle/pistol per deployment, and of course could have it maintained/replaced downrange if need be. wear greatly varies with type of mission, and although I had opportunity to bring my own guns many times, I got it out of my system in one tour.... I probably would not do the same again.

I can assure you, without going into detail, that shipping firearms or anything else into/out of a military contingency zone is incredibly easy.... like "getting into the USA through Mexico" easy....

In 1952 Korea many marine riflemen carried personal weapons. I purchased a S&W 38 combat masterpiece as a sleeping bag gun at the Camp Pendleton px before I left for Korea. Most marines who rotated home sold their weapons to one of their buddies. Later on heard that they banned personal weapons as there were to many accidental shootins back in reserve. The marines that I knew would probably just hide their weapon until they went back up on line. Nobody bothered us with chicken s--- up on line.

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Semper Fi until I die

One day My old buddy Milt was making house calls up in North Korea.
He had just shot an enemy soldier in the house next-door and did not realize that his 1911 had smokestacked.
He kicked the door open and another enemy soldier appeared in front.
He raised up his 1911 to shoot then he realized it was smokestacked.
The enemy soldier raised his rifle and then there is a loud noise.
Milt had been in explosions before but he never been shot. As he started to think was I shot the enemy soldier collapsed in front of him.
Master Sgt. George Crabtree was right behind him. George had put his M1 right up under Milts right ear and killed the enemy soldier.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I can only speak for my experience with the Air Force, but the previous are correct. If you're in a position where you might need a gun, the Air Force will issue you one.

In fact, the Air Force does that with any tool. Even pocket knives are not allowed. If you need one, they will issue it to you. That's not to say most guys don't carry one, they just aren't authorized.

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Freedom isn't free.

Back in the 1980's the aircrews in the Fighter Squadron to which I was assigned carried whatever they wanted...I saw Pythons, 586's, 92's, Hi-Powers, etc. Everyone just stuck them in their SV-2 and went about their business.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Is an SV-2 a Survival Vest? Tell us about the pistol holster or pocket on those.

I carried my own personal Colt 1911 in Viet Nam, while in a tank bn. in the 1st Cav. and whenin the 2d Inf. in Korea, 1979-80. In Korea I kept the pistol in the arms room and checked it out when we went to the field. Now days, it is my understanding the carry of personal sidearms while in uniform is forbidden. I retired in the mid 1980s and at that time the Army at least was fairly laid back regarding personally owned firearms. Nowdays, the military seems to be almost anti-gun, particularly regarding personal firearms of any sort.

Please, enlighten us as to how you got your father's .45 in and out of A-stan and in what capacity you carried it. And why you would risk it.

My son is a USAF TACP and if there was any possible way he could have carried a personally owned weapon I would have equipped him appropriately prior to his three deployments. Instead he carried the issued Beretta M9 and M4, though he does take his own PMags and custom knife that I have gifted him.

He has run with everyone from grunts to SAS while over there and has yet to see anyone carrying any guns from home.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

My son is an Army E6 currently deployed for his third time, combined he has 3.5 years between both Iraq & A'stan. The only time he's seen what may have been personal weapons were with the green beanies he interacted with. The first few times he says he saw 1911s, the other it was Glocks. The one Nat'l Guard SF unit he was around had the M9 for pistols.

I know he'd rather have his Les Baer Thunder Ranch Commanche but makes do with his M9 & M4. He's now a Flight Medic, spent 9 years as a Combat Medic. Hoping he'll be home before fall.

Personally owned weapons carried in the field have a funny way of disappearing.

I read that some USAF squadrons used unit funds to buy Glocks and perhaps other brands. But those were then issued weapons, so didn't violate bans on personal guns.

I don't know where you read this, but the M9 is the only weapon issued to Air Force personnel.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks for the answers, I actually was surprised to learn that it was the case that personal firearms were not authorized. The more you know.

Things are a lot different today from when I was in the Army in Vietnam. Sure you had your issued weapons, then you had the weapons that you were authorized to operate, then you had whatever weapon you could get your hands on. Nobody I ever knew was asked "Where did you get that pistol, are you authorized to carry that?" I think it was assumed that if you were packing an M79 and a bandolier of rounds that you must know what your doing with it. I carried a model 1911 that was relocated from a careless lieutenant that left it laying over his jeep seat while he went into the operating shack. I never carried it out in the open but wore it on the boat while on watch at night or while off limits in downtown Danang in a Vietnamese made shoulder holster under my fatigue shirt. I guess its not much different from the fly boys carrying their personal pistols, you just don't broadcast the information. I bought a beautiful stag handled switch blade while stationed in Germany, it was at least an Article 15 offense to get caught with it but I was young and didn't care. I kept it hidden and nobody ever knew I carried it around with me for over a year. I had spent most of my time off base in an apartment but moved back into the company area as I got short, I got caught with my pants down by a suprise inspection...something I was not used to living off base. I remember the Captain and Top coming into my room, the Captain was an idiot with no military experience...maybe the general defense ribbon on his chest, he was sniffing around, Top went over to my locker and told me "Open this locker" I opened the locker and stood by, he reached right up and back in the corner and pulled out my knife, he looked over at me and flicked it open, felt the edge, closed the knive, put it back on the shelf and said quietly "Got one just like it...Mines sharper." They both walked out, nothing was ever said.
I think alot has to do with the kind of operation your involved with and the type of leadership you have, I'm quite sure there are still guys today that are in the military that are carrying whatever they feel they need to carry and just aren't stupid enough to broadcast the information around...One of my good friends was suprised the other day when I told him that I have carried a concealed firearm even on the job for decades, he said "I had no idea" I told him "Thats why they call it concealed carry."

This is probably a universal truth in combat. If you're in the fight, who cares what you've got in your hand? As long as you're not threatening your own troops, it's all good.

If you're not in active combat though, the military is very rigid.

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Freedom isn't free.

in Vietnam you could pack what you could find no one cared, a lot of pistols were carried there that were not issued to 11b grunts, you just bought and sold them , there was usually some short timer looking to sell his appropriated equipment that could not be shipped back

in the seventies i carried a personal b model star 9 mm lugar copy of the 1911,bought at the base exchange, in a shoulder rig, when escorting the battalion commander during the meina heinoff years. we also were pretty protective of the radio equipment that would scramble the radio messages at the time, which required a top secret security clearance to operate

i lived in barracks and just had to have it approved by the old man, and it had to be stored at the company armory, and signed out when needed , the 1911's we had at that time were shot out relics and the 9 mm star was much more accurate. its rough as a cob these days spent the last 40+years riding in the tool box of a tractor, but still shoots great

[QUOTE=ky wonder;137891827]in Vietnam you could pack what you could find no one cared, a lot of pistols were carried there that were not issued to 11b grunts, you just bought and sold them , there was usually some short timer looking to sell his appropriated equipment that could not be shipped back."

Yes I saw a lot of the S&W .38 Spl.'s that were probably the same ones the U.S. gave to the RVN National police, being carried by our troops. No one official seemed to much care. Of course at that time and place you could probably buy a B- 52 if you really, really wanted one. (and had enough cash)

A guy on my track had a SAA copy, I think it was called a "Dakota" but I'm not sure. His dad just mailed it to him. (with a box of .45 Colt ammo) I don't think they bothered checking stuff coming in country, just outgoing.

Enlightenment? not from me I'm afraid, but I have no problem with telling you how I pulled it off... The deployment I carried the gun on I was attached to a very small (<8) team of airfield meteorological sensor maintenance technicians. Our mission based in Quatar, was to fly to the AOR's to help weather airmen maintain/repair/replace/PMI their equipment. (This was key to the trick, we were support personnel, traveling alone, or in pairs at best). At that time we routinely moved from our base in Quatar forward on an as needed basis (This has changed now and would make it much harder, if not impossible). The AF rule in Quatar was NO GUNS in the country, so we checked our weapons in the SP armory, in pelican cases with 4ea 5100 series locks on them. The SP contingent did not care or monitor our weapons, other than sign them in and out on paper. When we went forward to troubleshoot, or whatever we needed to do, we would draw weapons and wait in the pax terminal until our flight. My Shirt and team leader were aware that I brought it, and were willing to look the other way with the understanding that they had no idea I had packed it. (My Shirt knew why I wanted to bring it, and supported my decision whole heartedly), including telling me how to do it.

At the time we carried an M4 as primary and an M9 as a backup, but we had the goofy green flap holsters, as we were a low speed high drag type of unit. I simply brought a lanyard looped magazine, and threw the gun with a leash, in the ugly holster and no one ever saw it (or cared). I was careful to cherry pick quick missions, where I would be returning to Quatar quickly, and noone in the pax terminals along the way knew (or cared) about the pistol on my hip. When it was time to go home, I took the entire case from the armory and flew home.... simple as that.....

I made no big deal about what I was doing, and none else around me did either.... With that said, MOST of my trips in and out I carried the M9 due to the army's policing of weapons on some of their big fobs (clearing barrel monitors, etc...).

If I had been questioned on the 45 I would simply say I was the AF geek from Quatar, and that was my issued weapon.... See the "US Property" mark??? I am sure my team chief would have told same to anyone who bothered to call back to verify.... but none ever even noticed.... I was much too busy downrange to play "gun police" with folks, or even ask, but I have seen some people carrying really, really strange weapons in the AOR. Never cared to ask about them, as my downtime was limited to flights, or back in Quatar.

Why? My father hated the 9mm and wanted me to carry his 45. Most of my time in I could not do it, so when I got to a point that I could, I did. My dad passed before I did it, but it felt like the right thing to do.

Stupid? mea culpa.... no excuse here, but my career would have been worth it, had I been busted.

Risky? not really.... I am better at risk mitigation than that, and I felt my fathers wishes kinda outweighed my sentimental value. Besides, the gun is a post ww2 rework, well used, and worth mu ch more as an heirloom than an investment. I don't expect anyone to understand this, but me and mine (and at the time, my leadership) do.

So there is my dramatic tale, LOL, not so dramatic huh?

I have been in Army support units also, and would NEVER try this kind of thing in them, as standardization is much more important in their mission.... I get it, and while I am not a fan of the beretta, and can shoot it quite well.... it just doesn't feel right.... Pass your son a big Hooah for me (or "Air Power" if he rather LOL) and let him know we appreciate and think about him, and wish him well in his travels!

AFSOC authorized Glock 19s a few years ago, (I believe just for their Tier 1 guys) and 7th SFG also carries the G19 currently.

I stand corrected.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'd love to see a cite for this given I was in the Army for the Clinton years and never heard of any such directive

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Retired Career Security Guard

Doesn't OSI issue SIG P-228's, known in the military as the M-11?

And speaking of those, I think Army CID has them, and NCIS, although the Navy agents are civilian investigators. And they are reputed to be issued to at least some Navy aviators. A SIG ad mentions an upgraded version that looks nice. If I was richer, I'd like to try one.

Has anyone here seen the M-11 in use or do you know for sure who has them?

Spec Ops people, including USAF, seem to have about anything they reasonably want. Or certainly, a wide choice.


I don't recall where I read that about buying guns with unit funds, but I read it in several gun magazines, including one on weapons of the first Gulf war. Keep in mind that unless you served in such a unit, you'd probably never know what they issue. I doubt they publicize it.

When I was in the AF, the usual handguns were .38 revolvers, S&W M-15's with four-inch barrels and target hammer and triggers. They were gradually replacing Victory Models and some Colt .38's, with AP investigators and OSI having snub Colt and S&W .38's, some with shrouded hammers. But Colts were few, and some would tell you they never saw one. I was at one base in Canada that had only .45 autos. OSI also issued three-inch barreled M-36's for a time and had some cut-down 1911's. Some bases had snub M-15's that were technically different because they lacked the grooving on the rear sight base of the true M-15. The AF called them M-56, not a S&W number. They preceded the commercial M-15 snubs. None was the official model, but they were sure issued. One base had more Victory Models than Combat Masterpieces. The M-9 replaced most of these guns, but I gather that some K-9 units retained .38's, at least for training needs.

I'm sure that the vast majority of airmen armed with pistols get M-9's. But it's best not to make blanket statements.

The only AF folks I know have them are OSI (as a regularly issued item).

That said, any of the snake-eater type units can get anything they can justify, which is basically anything they may need proficiency in when working with a joint force. These units typically don't show up on the radar, and are only seen by their supported joint forces units.... CCT/PJ guys around hurlburt proper carry/qual/use M9s, so I am not 100% on them but would imagine they do so because a "special" weapon is not needed.

The AF has made a pretty wild shift in how weapons accounting is done with respect to units with unconventional missions.... the unit armorer and commander can authorize, purchase and issue almost anything within reason, but many still choose the M9 because it is cheap and standardized.

(rumor has it that the M11 was supposed to be for those with smaller paws, but got perverted into a CCW for OSI agents, and others). I also believe the 6SOS carries M11s, but deployed they carry glock 19s because they teach foreign aircrews, and try to mimic what the foreign powers carry for morale reasons.

So while the statement "the M9 is the only weapon issued to Air Force personnel" should probably read "the M9 is the standard weapon issued to Air Force personnel" I would bet that anyone who carries anything different is STILL on the hook for an M9, and the training that goes along with it..... kinda the same concept as flyers have both ABU and Flight coverall uniforms.... even though they always wear their flight bag around, they are required to have ABU uniforms standing by.

"As far as I know, the Army has never sold small arms to its soldiers, unless it was a General officer at his retirement and that for the pistol he was issued when he was promoted to Brigadier General."

Actually, this practice was quite common, from the 1800s up through, at least, WWI. A friend of mine has the Colt 1911 that was issued to his grandfather, who was an Army officer during WW I. When he left the Army, he purchased his sidearm. I saw the peperwork.

As a international police officer in Kosovo, I was issued a Beretta M92. As a police advisor in Afghanistan, under the State Dept, I received another Beretta M92 and a Bushmaster M-4.

I met several construction contractors in Afghanistan that purchased guns on the open market. Several had Browning High Powers and one had a 1915 era Colt 1911.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

The Beretta is a nice gun, if anything, I'd want my own magazines that I knew functioned flawless and weren't all banged up.