Charles Askins, Jr. was mentioned in the military handgun thread.
Over the years I have read quite a bit a written by him.
The first time that I've heard of Chama, New Mexico it was in an article about him. Do you guys know about the Velco dog incident?
That was when Charles Askins Jr. and a good gunsmith modified a Colt woodsman to use it centerfire 22 cartridge called the Velco Dog.
The border patrol pistol team used it in national championship matches.
Charles was forced to resign from the border patrol in disgrace and needed a hole to hide in. He became a forest ranger in Chama.
Later on I was stationed in San Antonio when he supposedly lived there. I asked everybody I could find around town about him and nobody I could find had ever seen him.
So I don't really know if he was in San Antonio or was in bad health or just didn't want anybody to bother him.
Did any of you guys ever meet him or see him anywhere?

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

That's Velo, actually, not Veclo. Velo, short for "Velocipede", an old name for bicycle. The velo dog was chambered in a small pistol designed for cyclists to carry, so they could shoot dogs that ran out to snap at 'em.

In the days BEFORE paved roads, it was hard to ride faster than the dog, and in the days BEFORE Pasture's rabies vaccine, getting dog-bit was NOT a good idea.

Skeeter mentions it here, The Legend Of Charley Askins

This is Askins' version.
December 1955 Guns Magazine, page 29. A Shooting Iron Too Hot to Handle.
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1955issues/G1255.pdf

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I always take precautions

I don't get it. I tried to post a link. I don't know WHY the entire 76-page PDF showed up.

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I always take precautions

There was a magazine writer back in the '70s who used a tag line that said "Only accurate rifles are interesting". Was that Col. Askins?

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

I wasn't there but I have read very much about him that was very bad in real life. Normally I would keep my mouth shut on people I never personally met. I did have a friend that claimed he had met him and his opinion was the same too. It` been said the man went a long ways out of his way to kill people he didn't have to. Here is a old link of people that claimed to know him. Judge for yourself. I didnt know them either. I bet there are many even here who idolized him yet will condemn that guy Byron Smith on the thread a few days ago. I guarantee you Askins would have done the same as smith placed in that situation.
So...how bout Charles Askins, Jr.? - 24hourcampfire

Jeff Cooper

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I always take precautions

I hear thee, Feral One. That's why I wanted to meet him, did not.
Am hoping somebody on the forum did meet him.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

That line was originally attributed to Townsend Whelen.

Charles Askins was a junior. I am fairly sure he also had a son who probley was III. Many years ago I read a article by III. I recall it was about the then brand new S&W model 39. I think I read several articles by #III and then he soon dropped off the writing job. So I guess that was three generations that wrote. Of course most of us only read Jr.
Again, I never met him but as they say, eat more chicken. A million coyotes cant be wrong!

He was arrogant and opinionated. Also very racist. A product of his time and then some. I don't know if he enjoyed killing or if he did it without any emotion at all. Either way he killed everything that walked on four legs or two without hesitation or remorse. Reading his tales I feel he often killed men and animals without good cause.

The one incident that sticks in my mind was when he saw a German POW (this was shortly after hostilities had ended IIRC) disabling surrendered vehicles and rather than simply telling the soldier to stop he shot him in the back.

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No life story has happy end.

I've read Askins' book and by his own words, I consider him a sociopath.

If he hadn't gone into law enforcement, I imagine he would have become a private sector criminal.

I met him once at the NRA Convention in Philadelphia. I happened to sit right behind him as we waited for the membership meeting to start. I said "Colonel Askins sir, I'd like to introduce myself and my wife". He turned around, said "Hello" to my wife, and then spent the next several minutes patting her knee while trying to convince her to join him in Mexico for a quail hunt. I didn't care for him at all after that, and my wife didn't either.

Shooting the German POW (I don't recall that the war was over; I'd have to check his book) was sabotage by an enemy in time of war. If Germans had found a US POW doing that, he'd be in deep sauerkraut. He might have been shot more formally, but might very well have been shot.

I don't weep for the Arab thief in camp in N. Africa, either.

I met him twice. In San Antonio in 1979, we were both guests at a press lunch provided by Ruger. I didn't sit at his table (I DID sit with some other men you'd know, including Col. Rex Applegate) but did talk to Askins for awhile before lunch was served.

He was reasonably polite but seemed a little boastful and openly offered to smuggle arms into Rhodesia, which was being embargoed by the USA. I can't say more about that here, but it did strike me as not being terribly discreet.

I asked about Spanish guns, as he had been US military attaché in Spain and was very familiar with guns made there, especially around Eibar and Elgoibar. He said that they were really about as good as US brands, certainly in a practical sense. (I don't fully agree, but that's another story.)

On another occasion, we talked at the NRA convention. He seemed amused that my press badge read Dallas Morning News, for which I once wrote a gun column and also wrote freelance. I was also with a gun mag, but they only used one publication on the press badge. He was cordial.

A mutual acquaintance told me that Askins enjoyed shooting animals just to see them fall down, but I can't confirm that, and he may have been repeating something he had been told by a third party.

Personally, I found him personable and witty, although I can't repeat on this board some of what he said. Some of you have read his remarks about Hispanics, and I can confirm that he used ethnic terms. But so did most men I know, especially of his generation.

I enjoyed his colorful prose for several decades and miss it now, when it's fashionable to condemn him. PC people find a lot of fault with him, but most younger people today have been raised differently. I won't say more.

I didn't know until now that he may have murdered a witness , nor was I aware that he shot people just for fun. He seemed to kill fairly often, but he was in a dangerous business. A lot of lead got thrown along the Rio Grande in the years when he was on the USBP.

His son was named Bill, not Charles III. He worked for a time for the NRA, but I have not heard of him in years.

I asked Askins why he wrote those silly articles in which he declared the .45 ACP and the .30/06 obsolete or said that the Walther PP was a great military sidearm. He laughed and said that if readers were mad, they'd write to the editor. If they liked an article, they were far less likely to write. He wanted the editor to know that his material was being read. He was serious and I think he was right.

There's so much negative comment about him now that I believe some is probably true. But my own experience of him, if sparse, was okay.

Oh, wait: I saw him again whole covering the sale of the remaining Churchill, Atkin, Grant, and Lang guns at Abercrombie & Fitch. The firm was closing and their assets were being sold. Buyers came from various places, including a kilted Scot who offered stag hunts on his home turf. Some of you may have read my article about this event in, "Guns." We were busy, so didn't talk much then.

He supposedly said something about Jack O'Connor's grave, but I don't think I believe it. For one thing, I think Jack's remains were scattered from the air over mountains where he loved to hunt.
(Askins was unhappy that O'Connor had replaced his father as gun editor at, "Outdoor Life.")

One thing you could say for Askins: his prose had a lot of vitamins! It was generally interesting to read.

Sounds like a good diagnosis to me. Certainly a borderline personality at the very least.

All the warmth and compassion of a Komodo dragon.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Dr. House with a gun and without the smarts.

Actually, I can see Hugh Laurie playing Askins in a biopic.

He came down here at least once for one of the numerous SCOT pigeon shoots we used to have. I remember him being handled like a celeb, but I seem to recall there were a number of other gents, like Grant Illseng and Clay Cook who were shown more respect and cordiality. Not much to add from me, since I was just a humble bird boy and flagger.

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Halfway and one more step

Now there's a chilling thought.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Thank You! I've been trying to remember that for a long time.
As soon as I read the name it popped back into memory.

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

UNREPENTANT SINNER did it for me. By his own admission he was a sociopath who murdered at will. By the grace of God he choose the Law.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

In an article for American Handgunner entitled "The Askins Gunfights Massad Ayoob "He was also a stone-cold killer." Ayoob said you'd want to have a drink with him, but not get drunk with him. And probably the type of guy you'd want with you in a dark alley, or a lonely outpost facing enemy hordes. I only knew him through his writings and what some of the gunwriters said.

And now you know why I have issue with some of our LEO's that go running around throwing their weight around. They have have the same attitude.

John

There was a Charles the third. He died as a child about 6 or 7 years old after being hit by a car. It was during WWII and Askins was overseas when it happened. The second son was in the Army during Viet Nam and I think was a chopper pilot. There was also a daughter who was allegedly an accomplished equestrian.

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S&WCA 1729

When I was stationed at Ft. Sam Houston in San Antonio (mid to late 1970's) I used to shoot skeet with him at the range on post. I called him and invited him to join us and he did on a semi-regular basis.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

beat me to it...

The articles written by Askins for Guns Magazine came across as quite level headed and reasoned if I remember correctly in contrast to other writers who seemed to just moan about how everything was better in the old days...

Askins does seem to take a lot of glee in describing his killings in "Unrepentant Sinner". As I recall, he wrote of ambushing a North Vietnamese mainly to test a .44 Magnum on human flesh. It seemed pretty wild scary being a B.P. in El Paso in those days as he describes it, too. He writes enthusiastically about shooting a couple smugglers who shot up his partners. Other guys, too. But if his killings were justified, would people think better of him now if he had just felt a little guilty about it?

I think the problem that a lot of us have with Charles Askins Junior is he seems to go out of his way to kill people that he probably didn't need to. For one thing he was never actually assigned to a direct combat unit. Even when he was some type of advisor- observer he always seem to find some people to kill.
The other day I mentioned my good friend Milt. He was also Army Ordnance.
In Korea he in command of the three-man forward technical intelligence unit.
One day the local commanding general called him in and told him I'm reassigning you to infantry duty.
Milt told the general you do know that I'm on direct Department of the Army orders? The general told Milt, back there they got their priorities, out here I got my priorities. And out here I'm in command. That leads up to the story I told the other day when they were going house to house in North Korea.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Askin's "Pistol Shooter's Book" was the only handgunning book in the library when I was a kid...

My father went into the BP in 1940. I once asked him if he knew anything about Askins. He didn't have much to say, but neither was it complimentary.

I once read somewhere that Askins was not an S&W fan, and as the BP's then head pistolero, promoted the purchase of Colt revolvers.

My Dad's duty weapon in the late 1940s was a 4" Colt New Service and 158 grain RNL .38 Specials. He was not a gun guy and had small hands; hard to think of a bigger gun for a minimally effective cartridge than that.

I'd probably be a little browned off if I had to carry a clunk like that around all day, too.

Well that settles it for me. If he wasn't a S&W guy then he was no good! lol

John

It's strange that he praised the eight ton Colt New Service .38 Special, yet disparaged the 1917 .45 N.S. with it's half moon clips. But later praise the Colt 1911 in the same caliber. He did write of using a .44-40 N.S. to, yes, you guessed it. To shoot a smuggler in the back and joked about B.P. down river wondering who did it. This smuggler was apparently trying to wrestle the gun from him.

I've read many articles by Col. Askins starting in the '50's. Guns magazine, Outdoor Life, and others. Never read his book "Unrepentant Sinner" because I didn't much care for his writings. All I know is Tom Gresham says he was one mean ***.

I do have that book plus several more he wrote. I think I did eat up a lot of his writing when I was young but now that I have "Matured" my view of him is a lot different than it was 50 years ago when I thought it was all about being tough. I think most go through that phase, and hopefully it is just a phase. Maybe even he hopefully softened at the end. I see when it got right down to it he DIDNT take his own life "On his terms" as he had more than hinted he would do when the time came. If not, there just might be somewhere close to 32 people with a grudge meeting him that he cant kill again. Ya think?

I had an opportunity to meet him around 1980 at an NRA convention but over hearing his conversation with the kid behind the Pachmayr booth I decided to pass.

Bob Milek spent 10 days with me in Africa in the mid 80's and Askin's name came up Bob being with Peterson's Hunting magazine knew him well I will never forget the look of fear on his face when he said you don't want to mess with him he is a killer. He was genuinely afraid of the man.

A Pro Hunter I knew in those days claimed Askins came out every year to hunt buffalo with him and took great pleasure in shooting them in the most awkward locations just to see their reaction. I don't know how true the PHs stories were and I certainly hope a Rhodesian or Askins for that matter would not have executed an infant?

Ed Matunas is a very good friend now a retired writer and he knew Askins quite well He said Askins took great pleasure making comments simply for the shock value. For example when asked the best place to shoot someone he would respond in the back. He was very public about his killings and perhaps he wanted to project himself as a tough guy. Although Ed told me of an incident in Mexico where Askins was the first one to leave the bar and avoid a fight. When he was asked by Massad as to how many me he killed he quoted a line by John Wesley Hardin x number of men not counting XXX and XXX.

Bill Jorden was not that public about his shootings but amongst friends made light of it one favorite line was the trick is to shoot the Mexicans on their side of the border so you do not have to clean up.

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Len

In his book he does talk of illegally helping a rancher cross the border into Mexico to retrieve his stolen herd. A noble task, it seems. But you can tell he's less interested in getting the cattle back as he is getting a chance to kill the cattle thieves which he and the rancher proceed to do. So, I guess THE PILGRIM has a point there as he mentioned a couple posts back here.

"The second son was in the Army during Viet Nam and I think was a chopper pilot."

IIRC, Bill Askins was a captain in the Marine Corps.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Actually, that was Colonel Townsend Whelen..............1877 - 1961.

A lot of negative things are being said about him and I don't think he was a sweetheart, but he was one of the greatest law enforcement shooters of all time. He was a national champion with a shotgun and handgun and pretty darn good with a rifle also. There was no "fleeing felon" protection law in those days and a couple of the guys he shot in the back were trying to take his gun, and in the old days that would get you shot by most cops. It should also be noted that several men he killed in shootouts would likely have killed other LE officers had his abilities not been so good. Many of the experts who didn't have much good to say about him might also admit that if the chips were down... Askins would be their first pick to be at their side in a gunfight.

We are all looking at this thru "Modern eyes". We need to remember, "the past is like another country, they did things differently there". I had the opportunity to spend a couple of hours with Col. Askins at the first Bianchi Shoot in Columbia ,Mo. and found him to be very cordial and interesting. All my best, Joe.

A lot of what he describes doing would have been illegal in 2014, 1914, and indeed in 1814.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall him COMMITTING an armed robbery early in "Unrepentant Sinner". WHEN was that either legal or looked upon with favor by the general public... at least the ones who DIDN'T count themselves as fans of Jessie James or Bonnie & Clyde?

Early in my young life I served under, what I thought of then and quite frankly still do today, "hard" men. They were combat veterans of both WWII and Korea as well as 25 year vets of metro Law enforcement. Several of them had killed multiple "bad guys" and quite frankly they did not suffer any recriminations about doing it and did not appear to hesitate if they had to do it again. They did not talk about it but would offer sage advice about not holding back if you thought your life or the life of someone else was threatened. Again guys, my experience is already 45 years old and Askins' is even farther back. As I said above the past is different. Heck today a young child can be expelled from school for defending himself from a school yard bully. I am sure any of us who are on the far side of 60 had advice from our fathers to not take abuse from any bully and not back down from what needed to be done. If you apply "modern" standards to any of the 20's thru 50's lawmen, many of them would or could be thrown off the force and possibly/probably be sued or worse. This is not to say I agree with everything that was done, just that you need to put it all in perspective. One only has to read the reports and history of the Texas Rangers, the NYPD Stakeout Squad, the Hat Squad in LA , or for that matter the Gunners that Hoover brought into the FBI to go after and kill the bandits of the 30's. Askins was a man of his time. He most certainly could and would be in trouble today. As I said earlier if you have been around hard men I believe you might have a different understanding. This is my opinion and mine alone and I mean no disrespect to any of my Forum Friends and fellow posters in this thread, All my very best, Joe.

The best part of G. Gordon Liddy's book "Will" was him talking about being a new FBI agent and wondering about two old guys there who were obviously past retirement. He said they were two old time lawmen from Oklahoma and were still allowed to work because the were no nonsense gunmen and the first guys called in dangerous situations. They packed tuned up 5" S&W .357s and tutored Liddy who also bought such a gun, but 3 1/2". This was the early 60s I think.

Not all of us are. The law, or the application of it, changes more than a little. Right and wrong don't change much, if at all.

Different man from a different time.

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I'm with the banned ...

Years ago, after tiring of hearing him talk about shooting while standing on your "hind legs", I asked him which of his "fore legs" he shot with.
I never received a reply.

In these days when everyone who ever served in the military gets a "thank you for your service", seems to me that Col. Askins deserves better. Especially since he's not here to defend himself. I read his books and articles, and while he may have fallen short of "perfect" he deserves better.

Colonel, thank you for your service!

There is always that!

I have very mixed feelings about Askins. It seems that he went out of his way to get into a gun fight both on the border and during the war.

With all the problems that we have on the border now we might could use several like him today.

Was one "Jelly" Bryce? He was from OK and surely as deadly as Askins. But as far as I know, everyone he killed had it coming. He must have been remarkably fast and accurate.

Jeff Cooper told me that he (Cooper) killed only three men. But I think he'd be an asset in a fight.

No, but Bryce came to mind when I was writing that post.

Delft "Jelly" Bryce was promoted up to Special Agent in Charge (Albuquerque Division) before he retired, so he was not one of the gents referenced above. I walk past his portrait on SAC row about every day at the office.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

IF only part of the stuff I have just read is true, Askins was over the top in any age of this country. I dug up this old thread I posted and read all 29 pages of the posters. Many of them claimed to have first hand experiances with him and his "Manners". Read all of it for yourselves and come back and give your imput.
So...how bout Charles Askins, Jr.? - 24hourcampfire
I wonder how many of us posted a few days ago about how "far over the top" and un nessary that guy Byron Smith was killing those two teenagers that had been stealing him blind. Remember that? How could anyone defend Askins and condem Smith for finishing off those two teenagers?
I really believe even in Askins day in the 30s and 40s his actions wouldnt have been tolerated had he been found out or not protected by several fellow officers. He brags about them long after the fact to where if some higher officals were to call him out on it all he would have to do is say, cant you take a lie? And just laugh at them. If NOTHING else, just read about the 8 or so posters that claimed to have interacted with him regarding him feeling their wives knees etc at partys or whatever in a manner that was dareing their husbands to try and do something about it.
He was my hero once too until I started reading this other stuff years ago. As my dad would say many years ago, "What a man!" And when he said that, it couldnt be mistaken for a compliment. If so, and nothing else, he ENJOYED killing. And if none of THIS is so, what would we call him?