Hypothetical question:

Lets say you took a M&P 9mm and broke it down into these three sets of PARTS:

#1 Barrel & slide
#2 Frame
#3 Multiple magazines

Now lets say you mailed them (Or UPS) in three separate packages to a family member across state lines that was eligible to own that gun in his home state. Would that violate BATFE rules??

I am asking an honest question. I know that you can always pay TWO FFL's to send and receive. But that would be $50 and now the gun would be in the recipients name, not mine.

The goal here is to send a handgun to another state prior to my visit there. The intent is that the recipient use it for a few weeks until my arrival. I would bring it home via airline after I visit him.

The frame constitutes a firearm, and must be treated as if everything else was attached. As far as what that means for your particular situation, I have no advice.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

That frame will get you in the slammer because thats the part that BATF considers a firearm. It has to go FFL to FFL. The barrel and slide might be okay. The magazines would get you in trouble if they hold more cartridges than their particular state allows. Why not just ship the entire thing FFL to FFL and be done with it. Its much cheaper than hiring a lawyer to defend you in court. I forgot bail.

Charlie

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SWCA # 2294

I thought it had to go to an ffl, but not necessarily from an ffl, assuming the receiving ffl was willing to accept it. But maybe I'm wrong.

That is correct unless specifically forbidden in your State.
Jim

Many FFLs will not accept other than from another FFL. Its their choice but most in my area will not.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

You can ship it to yourself at your relatives address. The relative cannot take possession of it technically.

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Copyright MCMLXII ©

OK. So now the total might be down to $25 for ONE FFL.

But how do you handle the 4473 on the receiving end?? I DON'T want the recipient to be the new legal owner per the 4473 of the receiving FFL.

AND, I don't want to wait until I get there to sign for the package.

Those appear to be your two choices . . . It's the pesky state line crossing that's causing the problem.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The frame is the firearm, and you cannot mail (USPS) it without an FFL. You also cannot lawfully just ship it to another person across state lines anyway. The risk of what you want to do is simply not acceptable and you need to give up on it. The problem is not taking it for yourself to use; that's easy, whether flying or driving. The problem is sending it early so that they can use it.

Doing the 4473 does not really make them the legal owner; "title" is not the same as being the transferee even though those often overlap. However, that might make it awkward in terms of the legal issues when you want to bring it back. Not the actual travel, but if something weird happened in the future (stolen in a burglary, then recovered in a crime, the trace will show your relative as the transferee yet you have it.) You end up having to use an FFL to ship it back to yourself and doing another transfer if you want to avoid the risk. Effdat.

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NHI, 10-8.

Breaking it into parts does you no good, The frame is the firearm.

It is all explained here. In this case you are a non Licensee (no FFL)

Yes you can ship it to yourself for your use but that pesky UPS or FED Ex thing comes up so you pay a lot to ship it,. No you can not use the US mail.

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms...-firearms-usps

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Still Running Against the Wind

You UPS the gun - no need to take it apart - to Gordon, I/C of Cousin Charlie, 123 Elm Street, whereever.

Cousin Charlie signs for it.

Cousin Charlie cannot, legally, open the package.

No FFLs need be involved because there is no transfer. You are shipping YOUR GUN, to YOU, in another state. When it gets to the other state, it is still YOUR GUN, and you take it back home to YOUR STATE when you leave.



edit: dang - come in second again

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I always take precautions

Still doesn't solve the OP's problem.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

There is no problem other than the person he mails it to can not "legally" open it and use it which is what he wants to do.

He can mail it to himself and pay the UPS $50 or $60 whatever it costs these days.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Yeah, but that's not his point. If nobody can use it until he gets there, he may as well fly with it for free.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I'm sure you will have different laws depending on the states involved. In my state, you can not "loan" someone a gun. There are probably exceptions to this (you and a buddy are hunting together, ...) I am not a lawyer so I can not advise on this. I sure would not do it without knowing the law in both states involved.

I assume there is a reason the relative does not just buy his own handgun rather than wanting yours to "use for a few weeks." It sure sounds like it would be way easier for him to just buy one in his home state, use it for a few weeks, then sell it if he doesn't want to keep it. He may come really close to breaking even, especially if you factor in the shipping & FFL costs.

Or maybe he could come visit you, then no shipping is required at all.

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You're shy a few manners.

The Feds might say you can ship a firearm to yourself, but I know of no shippers that allow it. FedEx and UPS do not allow it (unless someone on one end is licensed, e.g., FFL).

It's done all the time. How do you think some of the national competitors get all their guns to their next match. They have a designated "recipient" at the next match, and several competitors mail their guns to them but to "Their own name" c/o the recipient.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Those are the rules or laws/procedures, how he wishes to maneuver either following them or not is up to him.

If you have a solution, do please tell.

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Still Running Against the Wind

For what he wants to do, the solution is clear in the posts above . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

H Richard, that's good to know. I would't have expected it, given that UPS' and FedEx' web sites both say either the shipper or the receiver must be licensed. Any idea how that works?

Shipping Firearms and Ammunition: UPS

UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.



Prohibited & Restricted Articles | FXF Rules Tariff - FedEx

Firearms
Carrier will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S.or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

Are you sure about that?

Firearms FAQs | ATF

Maybe a quarter of the way down the page. "Nonlicensee" means someone without an FFL - you know, one of us normal folks.

>May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.





May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.<

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I always take precautions

Thank you sir!

You're welcome.

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I always take precautions

vt shooter is correct, the issue is that it's a handgun. You can mail (USPS) long guns from yourself to yourself, but the Post Office won't do handguns from a non-FFL. To my knowledge UPS, FedEx & DHL will only ship firearms to an FFL holder and depending on what states you're dealing with the transaction may have to be FFL to FFL. Then you have individual FFL policy, as to whether or not they will accept a firearm from an individual.

-Klaus