Caliber arrogance? - 30-30 called "wimpy"

So I'm in the LGS and jawing with the owner, a long-time gun guy with a disdain for small calibers.

"You own any .22's?" I ask him.
"I sell 'em but don't own any rimfires," he responds.
"So you're a big-bore guy I take it," I say.
"Yup."
"What about a 30-30?" I rejoin, adding "I sold my Marlin 336 lever and always regretted it."
"That's a wimpy caliber," he sneers.
"Would you stand in front of one?" I say sarcastically.
"No, but it's out of date," comes the answer.

Other guys in the store overhear this and just about everyone takes his side and say the 30-30 is "puny," "underpowered" and make other disparaging comments.

"No real velocity," one guys says.
"Killed a lot of deer but there are much better rounds," says another.

Here I am, a rimfire guy mainly on the defense. I also shoot 7.62x39 out of my SKS and 7.62x54R out of my Mosin and think they've got plenty of pop. That's enough centerfire for me.

But this bunch is talking up Nitro Express, .45 Colt, 500 S&W and so forth, like they're all hot-shot big-game hunters.

Far as I'm concerned, bullet placement trumps all. A .22LR aimed center mass will do more than a .308 Lapua that just wings someone.

Any of you run into what I call "caliber arrogance"?

Yep all the time. My favorite is the one guy who said that the 7.62 x39 is "not powerful enough". No other comment, just not powerful enough. For what? Sure it won't slay any dragons but it's still plenty powerful.

I love it when guys argue what better to shoot a deer with 3006, 308, 3030, and all the other 30 cal calibers. Around here the dear are about 100 lbs and most shots are under 100 yards

I agree that shot placement is key.

Sounds as if these guys have more testosterone them logic.

More deer have been brought down with 30-30's than with any other caliber, at least in my state.

The lever action 30-30 is a good caliber and perfect for deer size game. With that said I have a Henry Big Boy in .357 Magnum/ 38 special in-case I need the extra velocity (less flash/ kick) but it is more so that the sidearm caliber matches the rifle. You know how old cowboys would use the same caliber ammo in their pistols as they would their rifles. A .38 special round will kill with good shot placement as the 30 30.

Everything is relative. When the .30-30 was introduced (about 1895 if I recall correctly) it was the first commercial cartridge loaded with smokeless powder, widely touted as being a very flat-shooting cartridge. Of course, it was being compared to the more common big-bore black powder cartridges, or to some other Winchesters chambered for pistol-size cartridges (.44-40, .32-20, etc). Telescopic sights were pretty uncommon, considered to be rich mens' playthings, and 200 or 300 yards was considered to be very long range shooting.

I've been shooting .30-30 Winchesters for nearly 50 years, reloading for them for over 40 years, and casting bullets for them nearly as long. Raised my two sons with .30-30's as their first centerfire hunting rifles. We have eaten a ton of game taken with .30-30's over the years. I doubt that either of my sons, or any of my grandchildren, have ever fired a round of factory ammo in the .30-30's. Each brings or mails the fired brass back to old Grampa's house where it is turned back into loaded ammo for the next use.170-grain RNFP-GC cast bullet, 30-grains H335, each box costing me about $3 or $4 to produce, that's the standard load. For young shooters just starting out in centerfire to practice with, or for smaller game, I load the same bullet over 8-grains of Unique.

I consider the .30-30 to be a very versatile cartridge suitable for most North American game, especially when handloading for specific purposes is part of the equation. It has obvious limitations, as any other cartridge does, such as a maximum effective range of about 150 yards or so in most rifles (and most shooters), and not the rifle I would choose if buffalo or grizzlies were expected. But more than capable of handling deer, and I wouldn't hesitate to use on Rocky Mountain elk within 100 yards.

The Model 94 Winchester carbines are lightweight, easy to carry all day, about as rugged as anything ever made, fast handling in the woods, with modest recoil that isn't beyond the typical shooter's ability to handle.

I have other rifles in other calibers (bigger and smaller) but none that I really enjoy more.

Sure. There are several guys around here who'd hunt deer with a 50 BMG if they could afford one.

I believe it is borne out of ignorance, and compensating for a small anatomical part.

Personally I like the .30-30 as a good general purpose rifle. I've only got two Winchester 94s in that caliber though...could use a few more.

I saw that the OP mentioned .45 Colt being touted by the "other side." I'm not sure in what context, but that round predates the .30-30 by a good number of years. Also a "slow" cartridge that has been "improved upon" over the years, yet it is still efficient for hunting or self defense. There really isn't anything new under the sun.

Guess you old timers just don't get it, you have to have the newest fastest super whizbang magnum to kill a deer. Nothing less will do the job.

I'm with ya though, my 2 current favorite guns to shoot are a S&W 30-1 in 32 long and a Marlin 1894 in .357 but mostly shoots .38 specials.

Lever actions in .30-30 was the popular rifle in deer camps in our northern zone. My Remington 700 in 30.06 was always the odd gun in the camps I was in. Most of the shooting there was in thick woods and up close and I have to admit I missed opportunities because I couldn't get a proper sight picture through my scope but my buddies didn't have that problem with their .30-30s and brought home their deer. I don't remember a case where they didn't have enough gun either.
Today though things have changed and my rifle wouldn't be out of place and even bigger guns are now the norm as the bigger is better attitude has caught on.

What counts.....

What counts is the fact that the round is and has been a VERY useful cartridge. Important enough for me is its association with the lever action rifle which is my favorite configuration. The 30-30 cartridge is a lot like the S&W model 10. It doesn't need fixing because there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm not a hunter(I have no moral or ethical oppositions to hunting, and recognize that it performs a valuable role in wildlife management. It's just not for me for a number of reasons).

With that said, I always listen to caliber discussions with regard to hunting with a lot of interest.

Here in Kentucky, the regulations state that any centerfire rifle or handgun is legal for deer hunting. This means one could theoretically use anything from .25 ACP to .700 Nitro Express. The only real restrictions are a magazine capacity of no more than 10 rounds(again, for hunting deer, not a general restrictions), no full auto, and no FMJs or tracers.

From what I see at the ranges around hunting season(a time I generally avoid public ranges, since it's the only time of the year many hunters get their guns out), "traditional" hunting calibers like .270, 30-06, .308, and even 30-30 remain dominant.

Last year, I had a discussion with a co-worker who had gone hunting the previous weekend with his .308, and convinced himself that he was going to need to buy either a 7mm Magnum or 300 Win Mag because he'd shot a deer and it hadn't dropped immediately.

I didn't say much, but from what I know about deer I'd guess that he needs to work on shot placement with his 308 rather than buying a more powerful caliber.

If I were to ever go deer hunting, I'd likely use my lever action 357 Magnum. If I used a handgun it would be my 8" S&W model 27 or possibly my Blackhawk in 45 Colt. If I can't do it with any of those, I'd guess that the problem is more like me than my gun.

And, since I've rambled along for a while without really addressing the original point-a Winchester 94 is a gun on my "check list." When I get one, it will more than likely be in 30-30, although a nice one in 32 Winchester Special could fill the 94 nicely as well and would probably bump out a similar gun in 30-30.

meaneyedcatz said:

I agree that shot placement is key.

Sounds as if these guys have more testosterone them logic.

More deer have been brought down with 30-30's than with any other caliber, at least in my state.

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More deer have been killed by the 30-30 to this day even if we add up all the other calibers up together the 30-30 still wins.

I'm going to say more deer and black bears have been killed by the 30-30 too.

The next lever action that's not too far behind the 30-30 is the 35 Remington. Every old hunter I ran into either has a 30-30 or a 35 Remington.

I have a 35 Remington.

Shot placement is the key. Practice, practice and more practice. I put two bullets thru the same hole at 100yds with my 338wm benchrested. I stood up hand held and made four shots in rapid fire at four different bullseyes and was 1" from each x @ 100yds. I been shooting 30-06's since I could own a gun. The 338wm was my choice to bump up from the 30cal. bolt action rifles. With its 4,000ft.lbs. @ muzzle and 2,700ft.lbs. @ 200 yards this old caliber can still drop them dead on the spot. It's got a tad more kick over the '06.

After getting into some close calls with animals in the thick pines going the other way I bumped up to a bigger caliber.

I have a 50 year old "94" in 30-30. Never let me down, dropped everything it was asked to drop and never asked for much in return. Up until recently, I checked in at 6'2" and 238 lbs. The "whimpy" cartridge let my shoulder know every time it left home. If this round is "whimpy", then I need to hang my handicapped placard on the barrel so the deer will let me park up front and let me club them with the butt plate. Hate to run but it's pudding night at the "home".

Wow, glad that LGS isn't around here

Perhaps deer are just tougher?

I think .30-30 is no longer sufficient because deer have gotten tougher over the years:

Women would refer to that type of conversation as a "swinging" contest. You should have asked them what they use on squirrels, a .270?

If you want to get real technical, they're actually talking out of their collective ***.

The .30-30 is a cartridge, not a caliber.

The .30-30 is a .30 caliber - the same caliber as a .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag, .300 Wby Mag, and .300 Ultra Mag.
I'll bet a couple of those cartridges would be favored by your LGS weekend-warriors, and they'd pucker up if you told them that their Ultra Mag was a "wimpy caliber".


Now, back to the .30-30....
If you do your job, the .30-30 has no trouble doing it's job.
Keep in mind that the .30-30 is ballistically similar to a 12 Ga. shotgun - how many of them would accuse a 12 Ga of being "wimpy"?

How dead do they want dead?

Malpasowildlifer said:

Wow, glad that LGS isn't around here

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A gun shop preachin' that mularkey in these parts wouldn't survive a season.

When I'm asked how hard any caliber kicks I say it's no harder than a 12ga?