How many shots could a black powder revolver fire before it fouled?

This seems little mentioned in historical accounts. I loaded my Pietta Remington clone the way Colt himself said to load a revolver....powder and bullet pressed in to shave off a ring of lead....no wads and no lube. I managed 14 shots before my gun jammed up tight from fouling.

This is the general area of Fort Phil Kearny. the Fetterman Massacre, the Wagon Box Fight, and the Hayfield Fight. So what I wondered is how the old timers kept their guns firing. It seems that a dozen shots or so, even allowing for the lengthy reload time, would have been insufficient with thousands of hostile Indians milling about.

Mike Venturino did such a test, Remington vs. Colt though I don't remember if they were central fire or cap and ball but they were 19th Century production.

Any way, because the Remington(s) is more tightly fitted, it
jammed much sooner than the Colt which was a loosy-goosey affair though basically in factory trim.

Loading a Colt revolver using Colt's instructions, I have fired many cylinders.

Pretty sure that Colt's instructions for loading a Remington revolver is to throw the thing away and buy a proper revolver!

Kevin

Civil war soldiers were issued paper "cartridges" for their cap and ball revolvers. The paper was treated with a wax or some other lubricant to help keep the powder dry until they were used. The paper was rammed in along with the conical bullet providing lubrication. I don't know where you read that Sam Colt advised to not use lube but that statement is hard to believe. Also note that use of round balls is a modern convenience of economy, easy bullet casting and powder puff recoil.

FWIW, Using real black powder with Crisco over the bullet swabbing the barrel after every other cylinder full benefits the accuracy of my Ruger Old Army. Using Pyrodex it can be fired all week without cleaning. While a cap blown back into the frame can jam it it has never been jammed by fouling.

Grease on the chamber mouths will help keep things working a little longer. In my experience, Colts tend to work longer than Remingtons. A little-mentioned method to keep things working is to spit on the cylinder pin at the front or, in a Remington, pull it and spit on it. That actually works fairly well in a pinch.

k22fan said:

...real black powder with Crisco...

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Hydrogenated vegetable oils (Crisco) didn't exist in the 1850's. They were invented sometime around 1900, and came into common use in the 1960's.

Well, that invalidates what I was going to say...I can get 24 rounds out of my ROA with Crisco. Less with Colt types.

Two civilians, Fisher and Wheatley, had Henrys at the Fetterman battle. Using a good sized rock for cover, they were ankle deep in brass, but still went under in the end. Some days nothing is going to save you.

The rock is still there.

It's my understanding that Civil War era Gatlings also jammed up because of the black powder which built up fast from rapid fire.

IIRC the principle of an automatic pistol was known by the time of the Civil War but nobody could get around the fouling from the black power to make an effective one.

GatorFarmer said:

So what I wondered is how the old timers kept their guns firing. It seems that a dozen shots or so, even allowing for the lengthy reload time, would have been insufficient with thousands of hostile Indians milling about.

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Soldiers who were expecting trouble would carry extra revolvers. Each of these guys have 3 or 4 revolvers on hand.

I was common for cavalry troops to carry a pair of pistols in pommel holsters - that was how the large dragoon pistols were intended to be carried. This would be in addition to any other pistols carried in a belt holster. Think of it as a New York reload.

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The black powder of the era was (and remains) something of a lost art as the formulation of black powder in the mid to late 1800's didn't produce as much fouling as the black powder we have today, or at least the fouling wasn't quite as hard. Methods used at the time were trade secrets, but some of the details hint at very special selection and treatment of various wood, carefully controlling for the moisture content before burning it to charcoal.

Once smokeless powder became the norm the knowledge wan't valued and then was lost.

Of the powders available today, Swiss is generally regarded as your best bet for reduced fouling.

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It's a fact crisco wasn't around, but you still had other types of fat, beeswax, etc that were used in the lubes of the day. Then as now, firing a cap and ball revolver without either a wad under the bullet or lube over the top creates a risk of a chain fire. They seldom damage the pistol, but they get your attention and are best avoided.

At least U. S. Cavalry troopers seldom needed more than six shots, and typically they carried only a loaded cylinder and 12 to 18 rounds. For awhile, I used a replica (Pietta) Remington .36 for Cowboy action shooting. I always used a mixture of Pyrodex and a little black powder, as I found Pyrodex sometimes exhibited unreliable ignition. Not so the mixture. I could usually go 4-5 cylinders before the fouling became objectionable. I always carried a water bottle so I could flush away the residue every so often between stages. Maybe that's what the old timers did also.

I had some Pyrodex preformed revolver pellets, 30gr equiv, that seemed just as dirty as the German made BP I bought from Grafs.

Were cartridges universal or did many users, particularly non military ones, rely on powder and balls/conicals loose? I remember reading that modern examination of old cartridges showed most were somewhat anemic compared to the possible load of the revolver, usually having not more than 20-25 grains of powder, sometimes less whereas a loose charge could be about 34 grains.

My Pyrodex pellets ignited fine with the "new" hotter (so the package said) Remington number ten caps.

As I understand the original loading procedure it was powder, then tightly sealed ball. No wad, and no lube.

Stay away from any petroleum products, no gun oil.

If you use wonder lube, Crisco, bear fat, bacon grease, no problem.

Use gun oil, or wd40, very dirty very fast.

Using pyrodex, and wonder wads, I have shot 50 or more shots in a range visit, with no cleaning. When you get home, clean with hot water, lube with animal fat or wonder lube.

1860's version....

Kernel Crittenden said:

Hydrogenated vegetable oils (Crisco) didn't exist in the 1850's. They were invented sometime around 1900, and came into common use in the 1960's.

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The 1860s version of Crisco was animal lard.

Also Pyrodex is a good bit cleaner than genuine black powder which produces approximately 40% solids and 60% gas when burned. The potassium comes from fermented body wastes. Naaaaasty.

The problem with animal lard is it turns into a liquid much over room temperature, and it goes rancid... quickly. Bee's wax mixed with something might make a suitable substitute.

I use a product made from lanolin (natural sheep's wool oil) with my BP guns. Works great. But it's a liquid. They make a grease version, but it's too soft to use to seal a BP cylinder.

Find a copy of "Civil War Revolvers, Myth vs. Reality" by Peter Schiffers. He tests around 30 different types of revolvers known to have been used in the American Civil War. In my experience I've only been able to get two, maybe three cylinders out of a Remington style revolver before the pin needs cleaned. Colts do better because the fouling groove in the cylinder pin is a spiral which helps funnel fouling out as the cylinder turns. I assume this was patented as off hand I do not know of another manufacturer who did this.

Reloading under fire was not considered to be practical, just having 5-6 shots available would have been a major advantage. I also expect that most of the photos of multiple pistols are studio props. There are very few field photos of soldiers with multiple pistols. Obviously Calvary and Artillery could have carried extra pistols not on their body. I doubt many Infantry would have bothered with the extra weight after the first month of service. Of course the foot soldiers were probably the ones buying the little 22 and 32 S&W revolvers, or at least their well meaning loved ones.

Cap & ball revolvers vary in how many rounds can be gotten off before fouling gets too thick. In my own experience the Colts generally run longer than Remington or Whitney style revolvers. The larger cylinder pin seems to be the key, holds more lube to start with and spreads out the fouling more.

As to how they were loaded, early Colt literature simply stated to load powder and ball, no mention of lube on the ball. Flasks provided in cased sets were set to the right charge for the firearm. Colt also did a lot of work with cartridges, developed a waterproof tin foil one that he tried to sell to the government. The military did buy a lot of cartridges for issue from various makers but troops in the field were only likely to have @ 2 reloads on their person, carried in a belt pouch. Civilians could also buy cartridges or use loose powder and ball depending on their situation.

As to use in battle, most cavalry fights were brief, violent skirmishes. Attack, ride through and re-form. The loads in your gun were what you counted on, not quick reloads. The infantry depended on long guns, only officers were issued handguns and most were probably used very little. For civilians on the frontier reloading might be more of an issue but the loads in a revolver might be enough to enable you to get away from an enemy that outnumbered you (or save the last one for yourself if you couldn't). The rifle was still the first choice weapon for indian fighting and by the mid 1860's a good breechloader or a repeater was a far better tool than earlier muzzle loaders.

..............(parts)..................Saltpeter.....Charcoal........Sulfur

Marcus Graecus (ca. 1250)........100.............33...............12
Canton of Zurich (1775)............100...........16.7.............16.7
Swiss Army (1849)...................100...........17.3..............16.0
Modern Swiss blackpowder........100............20.0.............13.3
Ulrich Bretscher's Black Powder Page

There has been no significant change in the formulation of black powder through the centuries. I would not attribute modern day fouling to differences in the powder made today. Remember that quality control in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries was far from ideal, so every can of powder purchased was probably different. The types of wood used, the degree of heat supplied to make charcoal, and the size and uniformity of particles are all big factors in consistent manufacture of black powder and only the technologies of today are able to make uniform quality product. I also think that using tallow, whale fat, lard, etc. when loading will provide dramatically different and improved effects when compared to modern concoctions like Crisco, petroleum products, etc., which will add to fouling in modern BP revolvers.

My belief is that the load also plays an important part in how clean or “dirty” your revolver gets. I shoot percussion and flintlock guns and have learned over the years how to eliminate hard fouling in the barrels. After shooting a few rounds, a ring of hard carbon will form somewhere in the barrel that makes reloading difficult. If you increase the load of BP, you can push the carbon ring that forms further down the barrel, until the point where it will form beyond the muzzle. Once that load is determined, I can shoot dozens of rounds without needing to clean the gun. I suspect that the loads or BP particle size can be modified to have a similar positive affect in percussion revolvers.

Bottom line is that the guns of old suffered the same problems as modern reproductions and needed constant cleaning to keep working, but if that was your only weapon of defense and food, you would have plenty of time to figure out how to maximize its usefulness by changing powder, load, particle size, and lube. Today, most people are occasional shooters and do not spend the time to perfect their loads.

I am also sure that some manufacturers provide reproductions that may be a little tight, but most are true to the tolerances of old. Maybe corrosion and erosion was a friend of the old time shooters who shot so many rounds that the guns actually worked better as they got more worn. How many times do you see a BP revolver for sale at Gun Shows and they all look brand new!!!! We clean and oil our guns to the point that they don’t even lose their finish after lots of BP is shot. I seem to recall that S&W early cartridge revolvers were built so tight that they always lost government tests when compared to Colt. S&Ws fouled quickly and Colt revolvers continued to produce more shots before fouling, which was apparently an important criteria for the government testers, and for good reason.

k22fan said:

...Civil war soldiers were issued paper "cartridges" for their cap and ball revolvers. The paper was treated with a wax or some other lubricant to help keep the powder dry until they were used. The paper was rammed in along with the conical bullet providing lubrication...

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The paper cartridge was loaded into the cylinder and only a small scrap remained attached to the bullet, if any.

k22fan said:

...I don't know where you read that Sam Colt advised to not use lube but that statement is hard to believe...

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I found the same instructions glued on the inside lid of a cased Colt revolver. I had the photo somewhere and will post when I find it.

k22fan said:

...Also note that use of round balls is a modern convenience of economy, easy bullet casting and powder puff recoil...

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Same economy then as now. I use round ball because they are more accurate from my S&B revolvers.

Kevin

StrawHat said:

The paper cartridge was loaded into the cylinder and only a small scrap remained attached to the bullet, if any . . . Kevin

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I have seen countless videos and have experience in loading pre-assembled paper "cartridges" in Enfields and Springfields. There is a tube of paper sealed at both ends with bullet and powder. You chew or snip off only the very top of the paper to expose the powder, dump the powder and place the rest of the tube of paper into the bore. It functions just as K22 states, to help keep the powder dry and to serve as a cushion and bore seal for the ball when fired.

I have also read accounts of rapid fire exercises during the Revolutionary & Civil Wars, where the shooter simply pierced the paper and stuffed the whole thing into the barrel, then rammed home for quick firing. Here is a video of rapid fire of a Brown Bess.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/vide...mozilla-002&hsimp=yhs-002&hspart=mozilla&tt=b