Dr. Walter J. Palmer

Okay, I have to ask. Does anyone know more than I do?

There's a DR. that pays $55k for a lion to take, he then goes to Africa and entirely depends on the local guides. He then shoots a lion and takes the trophy.

Now, at what point did the Dr. notice the tracking collar? Did he knew about it? Why weren't there any red flags?

Reason why I'm asking is that he's getting a lot of hate. Now, obviously he was scammed. Or he knew and didn't care. Not sure what the truth is. He is hiding out somewhere.

I mean if he really was clueless about the lion he was about to take, I don't understand why he's getting all the heat

Here's a NYT article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/30/us/cecil-the-lion-walter-palmer.html?_r=0

I have never been to Africa for a hunt, so I don't know how it works and what kind of paperwork and etc blah blah.

Please don't turn this into a pro-/anti hunting thread!

Agree, he got screwed.

And he is neither my dentist nor my brother in law...

The smartest thing he did was to close his doors and get out of the public eye. There are crazies out there who would probably try to end his life because he went hunting.

And I agree, if he was in on luring the lion out of the park and knew it was a protected cat, throw the book at him. Otherwise, he was taken for a ride by an unscrupulous guide.

Not sure of the accuracy of the reporting, but news sources claim this dentist was busted for a prior poaching incident involving a bear in WI that he killed in a protected, non-hunting area, and transported to an area where it was legal to take bear for tagging. If true, that says a lot about his character, and the veracity of his claims that he is blameless in this incident
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The Dentist and the Lion....

Yes, there's certainly a lot of interest in this story. Given the number of photos of the good Doctor and his trophies, he's not a novice. Nor is this his first experience with testing the legalities of how a hunt is carried out. He owns the larger piece of the responsibility for what occurred. I have little sympathy for him, and feel that his present and past actions cast a shadow on hunters, archers and shooters everywhere. I hope that due process is carried out to the fullest extent for all involved. I also hope that people don't get carried away in how they react to this sad story. This is an emotional issue for many, for sure. But the real test for society is to act responsibly, even when one of its members apparently hasn't.

True, his hunting resume is not the greatest if we can believe the reporting.

Slow news day?

There were enough lies in the articles I read... all authored by animal rights activists/anti hunters/anti gun nuts that I'm not really sure if the animal was wearing a collar or not... on the pix I've seen of that cat when it was alive... he was definitely not wearing the radio collar or his mane covered it 100%...... I lean strongly to the lion not wearing the collar...........as I don't think it would allow his mane to be styled to cover it..........

Point #2... Nearly all lion & leopard hunting in nearly all countries of Africa is done over bait...the same as with the majority of black bear hunting is done in North America,... except where in Vancouver Island & British Columbia where road hunting is both legal & is the preferred method.......The anti hunting/anti-gun writers fail to mention that too... reading their accounts one would suppose that this lion was the only lion ever hunted over bait in Africa........

point#3. They mention he paid over $50,000 for this hunt.... like from what I understand this is probably within the normal range for any big cat hunt........there are guys who pay that much for a brown bear hunt & nearly that for both elk & moose for some guides/outfitters here in North America

point #4.... some of the anti-hunting/antigun authors allude to this lion being the top male of a pair of males of an active pride... despite it being over from 12 to 15 years old.......from everything I've been told... most big males lose their place in prides somewhere around age 7 to age 10.........with younger males of doubles or triples forcing them out.......but golly you don't think that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals )activists/ALF (Animal Liberation Front)activists/US Humane Society activists would blatantly lie to the public & slant every sentence of an article to justify their goals & to cause hunting to be seen in bad light? Until the World Trade Centers were destroyed on 911, members of these 3 organizations have done more bombing, burning of medical research labs, murder of scientists than any one else......

Point #5... These articles by the anti-gun/anti-hunting/animal rights nuts all suggest that this lion was nearly a pet... beloved by all... as all animals in the Game preserves where no hunting is allowed are........... The lions become gentle loving creatures, that peacefully interact with the park's staff & visitors........ Why heck the guy just might have well shot it inside a small cage.....

What a bunch of hooey....... remember just a month or so back when the liberal TV writer/producer/actress knew better than those silly people who insisted that she keep the windows rolled up while she took pictures of these "nearly tame" cats? One of them reached in & grabbed her & killed her............. she became it's next meal...The staff of the park moved the cat & didn't kill it......... a proven man killer needs to be taken out... before it teaches others how much easier it is to kill humans than to kill the various herbivores there.

dougb1946 said:

Slow news day?

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Not at all, shooting Cecil, "deflategate" and a "racially oppositional cop shooting" are the big stories. The Middle East and terrorism, impending financial catastrophe and political malfeasance by current and wannabe politicians is strictly "tinfoil hat fodder." Wonder what the Karfashions are up to today? Joe

I don't know about the dentist, but the article quoted within this article makes a pretty good case for the efficacy of paid big game hunting in preserving big game species:

Lions, Triggers, and Critics, Oh My! | Power Line

The trick is to make sure that having the big game around directly benefits the local population.

Onomea said:

...The trick is to make sure that having the big game around directly benefits the local population.

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It is also a point the do-gooders never seem to fully understand (or care about?), along with the fact that an old Lion (or any other old animal) is not likely to have an idyllic death that comes quietly while he rests in comfort and takes him away peacefully to Animal Heaven.

There are so many things these types do not appear to grasp that they are not really competent to participate in any kind of discussion about the welfare of wild animals, yet they get all the attention in the MSM.

As to the Doctor, who knows the truth of the propriety of his actions or lack of that, but I'd bet a small sum we'll never learn from watching the TV.

wrhk33 said:

If the reporting it correct they used bait to get the lion off the game reserve. How can hunters defend this?

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Indeed, there's no excuse. And the guides have been charged if I read it correct.

My question is did the Dr. know? Or was he kept in the dark?

Because if he was kept in the dark then he sure doesn't deserve all the hate. Again, his hunting past wasn't great, but it doesn't mean that he's doing illegal hunting all the time.

wrhk33 said:

I don't think these hunting guides give their fee to the poor. I would bet most people reading this don't give a damn about people living in this part of the world either.

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Yup, most people are too selfish. Imagine everyone donates $1 to the poor here in the USA, there wouldn't be any homeless people anymore....

JJEH said:

Imagine everyone donates $1 to the poor here in the USA, there wouldn't be any homeless people anymore....

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Actually there would be more homless; drunk, smoking cigarettes and scratching off "instant millionaire" tickets in the parking lot of the Stop-and-Rob. Joe

I figger they are after him because a dentist that can afford to pay 50 grand to go hunting is MUCH MORE likely to have the money to pay a big fine, than some barefoot guide living in a brush hut.

Just like in a lawsuit -go for the money.

The point is if you pay the people who live with the big game, and pay them well, for the privilege of shooting them, the animals become valuable property rather than pests to be erradicated or to be viewed with indifference when poached. The result is -- we humans being the selfish, self interested, greedy little capitalist buggers we all are at heart-- the animal numbers increase.

Case in point: Zimbabwe, one of the most politically benighted places in the world. Here is an excerpt from the article I linked to above:

"The numbers attest to the program’s success. Ten years after the program began, wildlife populations had increased by 50 percent. By 2003, elephant numbers had doubled from 4,000 to 8,000. The gains have not just been for wildlife, however. Between 1989 and 2001, CAMPFIRE generated more than $20 million in direct income, the vast majority of which came from hunting. During that period, the program benefitted an estimated 90,000 households and had a total economic impact of $100 million."

I am not a hunter, much less a big game hunter. But I support well managed big game trophy hunting. I think it makes for a better world for all, and especially the animals themselves.

I am predicting a movie deal out of this.

Born Free the Sequel.

I also understand all the hoopla as it is in MN where my Sister lives and she is probably our front of the Drs office with a sign and her yuppie friends.

Point 1... to the two fellows who hate hunting.... jorge & wr.. that is how you hunt big cats & bears.... This is the United States of America... you are entitled to having your views too.. but no one lured this cat anywhere, the dominant big cats & bears have a range/area they patrol to keep out interlopers... and when they are forced out of their dominant place when they get old, as this one that now is being called Cecil, was years ago... they still try to have an area they call their own.... until the big one chases him off again... by the way, Cecil too attacked & killed the dominant male lion to get his place....and in his turn... this cat was kicked out too, as will the next... this is what the big cats do.


You did not refute a single point in any of my response... you just re-iterated your anti-hunting claims...but from viewing the different clips of this cat he wasn't wearing a collar... he was legally harvested, by a licensed hunter with a licensed PH... my understanding is that the animal was hit a lttle too far back... but thankfully the very conscientious PH stayed on the track until the animal was slain... Any lion is incredibly dangerous...just ask the heirs of the anti-hunting Hollywood dwebe who was just killed by one in a wild animal park when she refused to roll up the windows on her car as she took pictures of a lion.....she knew that all lions are like the ones in the Lion King... & one killed & ate her too...........until it was frightened off.......


Again... looking at this logically & not thru the eyes of the mentally ill animal rights nuts/terrorists like those of PETA/ALF or the US Humane Society... this dentist did nothing wrong & his fees actually provide for the salaries of the different agencies throughout Africa for those actually taking care of animals... When Kenya did away with hunting after their Independence... elephant numbers plummeted to terrible levels... poachers then had free reign to hunt where ever they wanted to.......with only 1 or 2 of the national park areas protected by park rangers, the rest were abandoned to poachers who bribed officials to stay out of their way.

The same thing is happening in Botswana now... Botswana has stopped the harvesting of elephants in many areas of their country.. only on privately owned land is it still legal to hunt... now no one can kill an elephant on nationally owned land.

The professional hunters & local people hunted the poachers down.. as the elephants provided both money & meat to the local tribes... every ounce of meat of a legally harvested elephant was given to the local people... the hunter who bought the license kept only the tusks, skull, tail & generally 1 foot to all 4 feet to be made into umbrella stands & enough of the hide to be made into a nice jacket or to upholster some furniture.......but the PH's always hired many local people to help in their camps... from cooks, to laundry, to trackers etc.. and the better PH's even provided teachers & schools for the kids of the area............

Unfortunately corrupt officials bribed by poachers with huge money have gotten them to stop the legal harvests because the PH's hunted them down without mercy, they claim it was done to be anti hunting... but it's to protect the poachers. Zimbabwe just found & destroyed several huge caches of ivory being moved through their nation from Botswana & another country.... the most terrible waste of poachers is they only take the ivory & let all of the meat rot....

da gimp said:

There were enough lies in the articles I read... all authored by animal rights activists/anti hunters/anti gun nuts that I'm not really sure if the animal was wearing a collar or not... on the pix I've seen of that cat when it was alive... he was definitely not wearing the radio collar or his mane covered it 100%...... I lean strongly to the lion not wearing the collar...........as I don't think it would allow his mane to be styled to cover it..........

Point #2... Nearly all lion & leopard hunting in nearly all countries of Africa is done over bait...the same as with the majority of black bear hunting is done in North America,... except where in Vancouver Island & British Columbia where road hunting is both legal & is the preferred method.......The anti hunting/anti-gun writers fail to mention that too... reading their accounts one would suppose that this lion was the only lion ever hunted over bait in Africa........

point#3. They mention he paid over $50,000 for this hunt.... like from what I understand this is probably within the normal range for any big cat hunt........there are guys who pay that much for a brown bear hunt & nearly that for both elk & moose for some guides/outfitters here in North America

point #4.... some of the anti-hunting/antigun authors allude to this lion being the top male of a pair of males of an active pride... despite it being over from 12 to 15 years old.......from everything I've been told... most big males lose their place in prides somewhere around age 7 to age 10.........with younger males of doubles or triples forcing them out.......but golly you don't think that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals )activists/ALF (Animal Liberation Front)activists/US Humane Society activists would blatantly lie to the public & slant every sentence of an article to justify their goals & to cause hunting to be seen in bad light? Until the World Trade Centers were destroyed on 911, members of these 3 organizations have done more bombing, burning of medical research labs, murder of scientists than any one else......

Point #5... These articles by the anti-gun/anti-hunting/animal rights nuts all suggest that this lion was nearly a pet... beloved by all... as all animals in the Game preserves where no hunting is allowed are........... The lions become gentle loving creatures, that peacefully interact with the park's staff & visitors........ Why heck the guy just might have well shot it inside a small cage.....

What a bunch of hooey....... remember just a month or so back when the liberal TV writer/producer/actress knew better than those silly people who insisted that she keep the windows rolled up while she took pictures of these "nearly tame" cats? One of them reached in & grabbed her & killed her............. she became it's next meal...The staff of the park moved the cat & didn't kill it......... a proven man killer needs to be taken out... before it teaches others how much easier it is to kill humans than to kill the various herbivores there.

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I agree with pretty much all of that.

Another thing to note is that the animal was likely killed at night, which would have made seeing a tracking collar difficult--it's probably hard to see on a male lion anyway. I can't see one in most of the pics I've seen of this particular cat. I assume it's obscured by the mane.

In addition unless the preserve had a fence around it, which I'm sure it didn't, the lion was probably off the property on a regular basis anyway. The range of a male lion is pretty large.

This thing has blown up so ridiculously that it's hard to know what to believe, but I did read that the PH turned himself in the next day because he found the collar.

Onomea's link is good stuff and common general knowledge for anyone interested in this sort of thing. The surest road to extinction for the big critters in Africa is outlawing sport hunting.

I don’t believe in trophy hunting, I know it happens and in most cases it’s legal, so I’ll say no more about that.

What I don’t understand is the reason to hunt one of the most dangerous game animals in the world with a bow. I don’t think the Dr. believed he would get a clean kill with an arrow.
If the information I’ve gotten in the mainstream media is correct Dr. maimed the animal with a shot from his bow then spent the next 40 hours tracking it and finally finished it with a rifle shot. To me there is nothing sporting about what the Dr. did.

old bear said:

I don’t believe in trophy hunting, I know it happens and in most cases it’s legal, so I’ll say no more about that.

What I don’t understand is the reason to hunt one of the most dangerous game animals in the world with a bow. I don’t think the Dr. believed he would get a clean kill with an arrow.
If the information I’ve gotten in the mainstream media is correct Dr. maimed the animal with a shot from his bow then spent the next 40 hours tracking it and finally finished it with a rifle shot. To me there is nothing sporting about what the Dr. did.

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The good Dr. is a member of SCI, Safari Club International. They have record listings for all the game animals around the world. From whitetail deer to Musk Ox. There are separate "books" for game taken with handgun, a normal rifle, bow, black powder, etc. I'd say with a good degree of certainty, he is trying to "make the book" by taking the game with a bow versus a normal firearm. There are probably not a lot of lions taken with a bow, so his chance of scoring higher in the listings would be better.

FN in MT