Is Jerry Kuhnhausen really right?

It would be wonderful if all the guns S&W produced got the care in production of the legendary Registered Magnums. It would also mean very expensive prices, very few sales and no more S&W. Many people may hate MIM, but, I think few actually understand it. It does work and works well.

They have had their QC problems and needd to get and keep them addressed. But, in MA how many really good craftsmen are you going to ba able to hire, train and retain for say $20 an hour. Raise that up to $30 and that adds about $12 an hour to the cost per hour. Spend another 2 hours on each gun. Right back to high prices competing against companies who have gone lower cost. Not going to fly. Thing is all my new guns work very well. I have a 325, a 396, a 500 with MIM parts. All function perfectly. The locks are safe in plastic bags though
 
It would be wonderful if all the guns S&W produced got the care in production of the legendary Registered Magnums. It would also mean very expensive prices, very few sales and no more S&W. Many people may hate MIM, but, I think few actually understand it. It does work and works well.

They have had their QC problems and needd to get and keep them addressed. But, in MA how many really good craftsmen are you going to ba able to hire, train and retain for say $20 an hour. Raise that up to $30 and that adds about $12 an hour to the cost per hour. Spend another 2 hours on each gun. Right back to high prices competing against companies who have gone lower cost. Not going to fly. Thing is all my new guns work very well. I have a 325, a 396, a 500 with MIM parts. All function perfectly. The locks are safe in plastic bags though
Yep, this right here. I would guess highly trained blue collar employees would be up at least around $40 an hour in the Northeast, based on wages here in N.E. Illinois for comparable, add in benefits and things like payroll taxes and you're probably looking at close to $100 an hour per. How many 686's would S&W sell if they cost $1500 to $2000 or more apiece?

My older ones are beautifully fitted and finished, particularly those built before the 70's, but with todays manufacturing costs including taxes, OSHA and EPA regs, insurance, etc., we ain't going back.

At least we CAN still buy new ones somewhat reasonably priced, and if they don't work, send it back till it does. That's how we get new enthusiasts to admire revolvers. The new gun owner might pick up 642 at a gun store, become enamored with revolvers, and become tomorrows collector. Not all of us, me included, were buying the older ones for a song 20-30 years ago.

I like my new ones too, I shoot them a lot and am not afraid to run them hard if I want. Yeah I wish the lock would go away but it isn't, and the MIM doesn't bother me at all.
 
My Father-In-Law took the Factory Police Department Armorer's Revolver course (in the 60's) and the same for Automatics in the 80's and refresher courses along with the Factory Competition Gunsmith's course (for revolvers). He Uses J.K.'s books on other brands, but says based on his S&W knowledge, they are only OK, but a good place to start.

I have the 1911 book as well as the S&W revolver book. The info exceeds anything I could do without them. However J.B.Woods has lots of good info on general gunsmithing. I get info anywhere I can.

On their opinions, eat the hay and spit out the sticks!

Ivan
 
I think we have a couple of examples worth considering IF the intent is to make a modern high-quality revolver: the Kimber K6 and, if you want to get crazy, a Korth. The K6is a borderline mass-market product; the Korth isn’t. Both have prices to match their niche. The Korth may be close to an RM...your opinion on the K6 is requested, as I haven’t handled one. Either way, polymer guns rule the market now, for better or worse.

Internal lock? No, thanks.
 
I find that such opinions and endorsements are paid for at some level or not. Perhaps S&W stopped sending the author free samples to evaluate or trips to Bangkok to evaluate them favorably. It may be less of a substantial issue than a deterioration of the relationship between the author and S&W in the ownership changes. Just what I have observed over decades in large businesses. I know nothing about Mr. Kuhnhausen.
 
Houston Rick,
I think your view is that JK may have been a gun
reviewer for magazines who is also a gunsmith/machinist.

As far as I know he was simply a gunsmith who wrote
extensively about his work on firearms which were available
and brought to him for work. I'm sure he did a fair amount
of research and picked up Smith and other examples of
companies' firearms but not to review but to see what made
them tick and improve or fix them.

Different levels of skills are needed for particular designs. I
remember a story of a Colt vice president who started on the
assembly line for 1911s. He'd put together maybe 10 or
twelve 1911s a day, tweaking parts to fit from the parts bins.
When he was promoted to the Python line, he'd only do
perhaps one or two such revolvers a day.


The few real gunsmiths I've known were very much into the
design of the parts, the quality of the steel from generation
to generation, the understanding of what made one firearm
a better performer than another and what made some survive
the years of use.
 
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All I will say is that Ruger is constantly improving their quality and Smith is constantly loosing it. I own zero Ruger's and don't really care for them, but it's not hard to see what is happening.

I just buy vintage S&W's, problem solved. :)
 
...His apparent bitterness towards S&W selling out for political correctness (MIM parts in 1997 and the PC trigger locks in 2000) along with being privately sold numerous times are apparent. He talks about a possible dim future for S&W revolvers referencing poor drop-in parts, poor tolerances, overall poorly manufactured revolver, plus backorder issues, etc. But, this sentence from him makes me wonder, do I really want a S&W revolver?

…"Considering this silliness, isn't it about time to drop the S&W brand loyalty nonsense and switch to better firearms made by a real U.S. gun company - Ruger for example?"

What does he really mean?

If he is actually “bitter” about what you mention he can run in the next election for President of The Flat Earth Society. :D

We all like to think of the old days in a lot of things, among them of course the days when S&W was family-owned, and they were concerned about high quality (or at least thought of as being better than Cxxx ;)). That was long ago. Whether we like it or not, it’s a modern world. S&W is now involved in making money for shareholders and, like most other U.S. companies, trying to survive in a market where a majority of their customers likely could care less about whether the product they are buying is made by their fellow countrymen, or comes either in part or in whole from halfway around the world. In short, the company will do what it thinks is necessary to survive. I’d rather they be here than not. They still make stuff that interests me and I’m pretty sure that, with patience, I can get it fixed - if necessary.
 
What businesses were you in that you met so many people who sold their integrity out so easily?
I can answer that. As a lawyer, I deal with businesses of all types and people as a rule will sell their soul in a heartbeat for a buck. The ones who don't are, sadly, the exception
 
I have to agree.....I own by-far more older S&W's (pre-lock) than any other firearm, and really like and enjoy them.But I don't even give the new S&W's (with the lock) a second look.

If I was to buy a new revolver it would more than likely be a Ruger.

All I will say is that Ruger is constantly improving their quality and Smith is constantly loosing it. I own zero Ruger's and don't really care for them, but it's not hard to see what is happening.

I just buy vintage S&W's, problem solved. :)
Yep. :) In the last 3 years, I've bought:
  • Lots of brand new Rugers
  • Lots of older used Smith & Wessons
Further, I've bought:
  • No older used Rugers (no need), and,
  • Only two brand new Smith & Wessons (both of which had issues and are for sale as we speak)

Kind of a sad situation for the mothership and those of us who are long-time dedicated S&W aficionados. My roots with S&W go way back. If you think I like this, you are wrong. :o

Still, I want the mothership to succeed and stay in business, whatever it takes. I want them to get a handle on QC and build fine firearms again that work perfectly right out of the box. So please don't consider me negative. I like to think of myself as optimistic! :D
 
There are very few Gun Company's out there that are truly and solely into improving their products. IMO most are interested in getting a very competitively priced product into the market place at a quality level that is not much more than "acceptable" and or passable. They are more interested in selling tons of product at high profit rather than selling fewer pieces at higher quality. That is not my idea of a business model, but then again, I don't own a gun company.

I also find that the younger generation not all that familiar with the "Golden Age" of the firearms industry (from years past) just doesn't know! I have been a victim of being naive when I had originally gotten into other Hobby's so I do realize that when in the "learning curve mode" we are susceptible to getting sucked in to a product from a Company's past reputation of high quality.
 
We collectively get what we are collectively willing to pay for.
True. How many would be willing to pay Korth prices for a new S&W?

Also FWIW, Ruger uses MIM too. I wasn't aware of it until I got to talking to one of my wife's relatives who works for Ruger. He makes their MIM parts, and BTW, he says they also make MIM parts for other manufacturers.
 
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I am with Jerry on this one. I do own a few post 2000 Smiths, but only because there wasn’t an earlier alternative. I traded my 4” 500 after the hammer broke into 3 pieces while dry firing. I haven't had any trouble with my 640-1 Pro (no lock) or 627-5 snubbie and I just acquired a 342PD, also sans IL. In general not a fan of current production Smiths, but I am happy with the 3 I currently own.
 
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