Selling Guns to Californians....Problems?

What's the current problem with selling guns to buyers in California? What do I need to be aware of so as to not violate California laws? I've had many opportunities to sell to those poor guys, but have passed because I've been only vaguely aware that there are complications. Can somebody walk me through this? Thanks All....Zebulon

What's the current problem with selling guns to buyers in California? What do I need to be aware of so as to not violate California laws? I've had many opportunities to sell to those poor guys, but have passed because I've been only vaguely aware that there are complications. Can somebody walk me through this? Thanks All....Zebulon

You must have an FFL to sell to anyone in Ca or who is a Ca resident.

At our latest gunshow in Phx, an ATF agent walked up to a private individual selling a rifle and said "I'm from Ca, I would like to buy your rifle." The guy took the agent's $800 and was promptly arrested by the 2 other agents standing nearby.

Even an FFl in your state must first ship the firearm to an FFL in Ca in order to complete the sale legally.

Most FFL's won't even ship to Ca due to the hassles involved.

It is OK for a person (FFL holder or not) outside of Ca to ship a firearm to a Ca FFL holder. I have done so. Whether the Ca FFL holder can sell the gun in Ca is another story.

If the ATF guy at the show had said he was from Georgia (and not an FFL holder), the result would have been the same. It is against federal law for a non-FFL resident of one state to sell a firearm to a non-FFL resident of another state. The fact that the agent reportedly said he was from Ca is not material. The ATF does not enforce Ca law.

Actually, if the agent who purchased the gun were a resident of Arizona, there was no crime committed regardless of what he said.

The problem with selling guns to California, is with California. To ship a firearm into the state of California, an FFL dealer MUST be registered with the California Dept. of Justice. Before shipping the firearm, you must verify it with the DOJ and be cleared to ship it, from what I understand. So basically they have a standing record of everything that anyone has shipped into the state. Most dealers feel it isn't worth the hassle, and doesn't want to wind up on another government hit list.

Based on the lunatic decisions of their elected representatives and their electors, state and federal, it's probably best not to allow Californians to possess firearms, or any other items potentially injurious to themselves, as they are apparently repeated victims of self-inflicted injury.

My rule of thumb is simple, I don't sell or ship anything firearm related in CA. Their firearm laws are idiotic and seem to change on a daily basis, no sense risking my hide to ship something other than a beanie baby into CA.

As a side note to CA's idiotic laws, my family was in the nursery business, we developed a process for bare root trees that gave them tremendous survivability when planted. My uncle told me, about three years ago, before we sold the business, that there was more paperwork and bureaucratic nonsense to ship our trees into CA than there was in China and we sold a LOT of these trees into China.

Thanks for the insight, as I stated in my post in a round about way, I wasn't completely sure.

I think the biggest problem is, that it creates yet another hoop for an FFL dealer to jump through. Although it may appear to be a simple one, it's not one that a lot of dealers seem to be willing to deal with on top of everything else. They have enough of a government circus on their shoulders that one more step to make in a transaction, especially from a "hater" target like the state of California that it's easier to write them off altogether than to deal with it.

Thanks for all your answers Gentlemen. As much as I'd like to offer an occasional sale to guys in Cali, I'm thinking it creates more problems than its worth. I'm aware of the mess that is Mass, but this State sounds just as looney. Thanks for the counsel....Zebulon

Great post Bob (Marvin Gardens), I appreciate the info!

Way to go, Bob!

I am an FFL holder.
I am a computer dummy that learns everything through trial and error(plenty of both), and seldom learn anything about computers till I have to.

I ship quite often to Kalleefornea.
The process was-
I had to register my FFL with the CFLC, which is the California Firearms License Check system. My Id with them is part of my FFL number, and I had to choose a password.
Every Ca FFL Dealer has to have a CFLC registration number. Once he has it, it stays the same, so I write it on his FFL if he did not.

Here is how a shipment goes-
1. I login to CFLC with my ID and password.
2. I enter the Ca Dealer's CFLC number.
3. It shows me his name and address, and asks me to click YES if that is him. (Duh)
4. They want an invoice number. I file invoices by date and don't use numbers. Sooooo, it takes me 10 seconds to make one up, based on the buyer's initials and date, or model number and date, and write it on my invoice, and enter it on the screen.
5. I fill in the number of long guns and handguns, and click "Submit". NO other data on the guns is required- only how many long and short.
6. Ca DOJ immediately issues a "DOJ Verification Approval Number". The Ca dealer MUST be furnished with that number. Some seem to think that it HAS to be written on the outside of the package for them to legally accept it, but Ca DOJ does not say that.
7. I print TWO copies of the letter- one for me, and one for the poor dealer in Ca. This is where it gets cute- lately the font of the approval letters has been HUGE. If I merely click the printer icon like I used to, it would not even print far enough down the page to include the DOJ Verification Approval Number! Being the computer whiz I am, 10 sheets later, I figured out that I could click "File" on the toolbar, and select "Print Preview" from the menu, and REDUCE it to 50% before printing. Then, click two copies, and I'm done. One for me, one for Ca dealer.

HA-HA, California, I BEATCHA!

Ca requires a drop test for handguns, which destroys the gun during testing. Sooooo, a 1970's Mod 27-2, long out of production, never went through the drop test, and CANNOT be shipped to Ca. The Ca DOJ actually has an approved gun list available online. Unless the EXACT model number and/or type is on that list, I do NOT ship it to Ca.
ANY gun 50 years old qualifies as a Curio or Relic, so a californian that has a C&R license can buy it, BUT it HAS to be shipped to a regular FFL if it is a handgun.

Here is the APPROVED handgun list:
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

Here is the CFLC site:
https://webapps.doj.ca.gov/cflc/acknowledge.do

I believe an individual can ship APPROVED handguns on the DOJ list to a Ca dealer to be transferred to a Ca resident.
I believe an individual can ship Curios and Relics handguns (remember, anything 50 yrs old is a C&R) to a Ca dealer for transfer to a C&R holder.

Thanks Lee,

Selling California DOJ approved firearms is relatively easy - a lot of dealers do it. There is a bunch of revenue to be made by doing so.

We Californians know our system & politicians are biased and crooked. We know the state government is controlled by the liberal cities and special interest groups. By voting we attempt to change that.

I own firearms, I vote, I own a home here, and I have grandchildren here, I have too many reasons not to move to another state that is more firearms friendly.

If people refuse to sell approved firearms to California that's their business. However, by taking that sort of philosophical stance, you are aiding and abetting the gun grabbers.


Thanks,

Bruce

Originally posted by CH47gunner:
Thanks Lee,

Selling California DOJ approved firearms is relatively easy - a lot of dealers do it. There is a bunch of revenue to be made by doing so.

We Californians know our system & politicians are biased and crooked. We know the state government is controlled by the liberal cities and special interest groups. By voting we attempt to change that.

I own firearms, I vote, I own a home here, and I have grandchildren here, I have too many reasons not to move to another state that is more firearms friendly.

If people refuse to sell approved firearms to California that's their business. However, by taking that sort of philosophical stance, you are aiding and abetting the gun grabbers.


Thanks,

Bruce

Click to expand...

+1

To blame California gun owners for the politicians that get elected here is the same as blaming the nations gun owners for Obama being elected.

Here's the deal. You've got to make sure the purchaser is an illegal alien, thus the buyer is not a US/California citizen and probably not a legal resident either. In the event things go bad and the authorities arrest you, you can count on the ACLU to vigorously defend the buyer and you'll get swept up with him and his defense. Remember, the state of California has a special place in it's heart for the ACLU, so I think you'll be home free. That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

Originally posted by Marvin Gardens:
Ok, here's the deal.

I'm from California and most of the guns I purchase are from out of state.

The DOJ representative told me this began after out of state dealers were unknowingly shipping guns to Mailbox drop stores after receiving a phony FFL giving those addresses.

The process is that if the shipper is a FFL holder he must enroll on the Cal DOJ website. Every California dealer has a pin number from DOJ. The seller enters the pin number into the DOJ website and is instantly given an approval code # to print out verifying that the receiving dealer is legit. There is no specific information asked for by the DOJ, only if it's a long gun, hand gun, and the number of each sent. Non FFL holders are not required to participate in the program can ship directly to a California FFL holder. My dealers from out of state tell me the process takes five minutes. Many laugh about the dealers that won't sell to California shooters and collectors say; "Good! That's more sales for us."

Assault weapons and 50 BMG rifles cannot be shipped to a regular FFL but only to dealers holding DOJ AW Dealer Permits. Contrary to what I've seen posted here, out of state dealers ARE NOT required to make sure a non AW handgun is on the California approved handgun list. Off list pistols and hi cap magazines are frequently received by dealers here for LE and other exempt sales. Some out of state dealers check the list mostly because they don't want to have the receiving dealer try to return the pistol after finding out they can't sell it here to civilians.

There are also many categories of handguns exempt from the California approved list requirements such as single actions, curios and relics, single shots (Contenders, etc.), as well as a lengthy list of pistols used in Olympic and Bullseye shooting.

I usually don't post in the lounge but read so much mis-information about California that I decided to do one post. I don't expect to change anyone's mind. Bottom line is that I hear California represents a good percentage of US firearms sales. The laws are stupid but we keep voting and donating. If you want to sell to a California collector that would be terrific. If not, best wishes, I respect your right to your opinion but will manage to continue to expand my collection without you.

Click to expand...

Very well put, and thank you so I didn't need to type all of that.

Originally posted by beemerrider:
Here's the deal. You've got to make sure the purchaser is an illegal alien, thus the buyer is not a US/California citizen and probably not a legal resident either. In the event things go bad and the authorities arrest you, you can count on the ACLU to vigorously defend the buyer and you'll get swept up with him and his defense. Remember, the state of California has a special place in it's heart for the ACLU, so I think you'll be home free. That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

Click to expand...