Here in the Hampton Roads area the military has a huge presence, especially the Navy, what with several bases and the Newport News shipyard where many navy ships are built. Ship homecomings are always a big deal, usually with live local news coverage. Watching one of the memorial services I think back to that day with all the friends and family gathered on the pier in the light misty rain. It became obvious something was wrong as they continued to wait in the rain well past it’s expected arrival time. The news coverage cut away and we later learned what had happened. To this day it’s so sad to see the pictures of those family members waiting in the rain for their sailors that were never to return.
Edit to add I may have confused some people by being in a hurry to beat the posting timer. While the 22nd is the day the sub was lost, the events I described on the pier occurred on the 27th, leading many to believe the Navy already knew it was lost while the families awaited it’s arrival.

Sixgy years earlier it was the USS Thresher that was lost. Also a nuclear
sub. It broke into pieces down on a depth test and no bodies were recovered
In the early 1960s I lived in Idaho Falls. National Reactor Testing Station
in where a lot of training takes place on reactors. My next door neighbor
at the time was Navy, there for training. He used to make beer in his
garage, and have me over for a brew a few times. Always wondered if
he was one of the lost crew.

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In Omnia Paratus

I recall both those tragedies. Sad events with no for sure explanation for those left behind

Sad memories indeed. I remember reading about the loss of the USS Squalus in 1939 and how some of that crew was rescued. The men on the Scorpion and Thresher never had a chance.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

1968 was a rough year for subs. Russia, Israel and France also lost one

I recall those tragedies, too (The US ones, the Thresher and the Scorpion.)

I don't think we've lost one since. I wonder if there was a design flaw, or a certain, specific technology, that we corrected/improved to prevent these sorts of accidents from happening?

Apparently many of the Subsafe, a safety program put in effect after Thresher, upgrades and repairs were never done because the leadership didn’t want it out of service that long during the Cold War.

Brave, brave men. I could not handle sailing under water for months at a time. RIP.

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No baby we aint

This past April 10 marked 60 years for the Thresher. Among those lost was Pervis Robison of Nutley, NJ.

It takes a special kind of person to crew a submarine. I couldn't do it.

What surprises me is the number of sub on sub collisions I have read about. Relatively small number of small boats with state of the art instrumentation, in a world of big oceans, and yet they still manage to "bump into" each other with surprising frequency.

I suspect their might have been a little "counting coup" going on between us and the Russians..

Larry

Tom Clancy makes it look pretty easy in "The Hunt for Red October."

Ivan

The Thresher is believed to have sunk due to a faulty weld in a pipe, and as noted above it was a potential flaw that was known and supposed to be addressed under the Sub Safe program, but wasn’t.

The most likely explanation for the Scorpion loss is a failure in the battery on a Mk 37 torpedo. Those batteries used a foil barrier to separate the electrolyte from the battery answer leakage could result in the battery activating and developing extreme heat and a hot running torpedo in a tube.

The people investigating the SOSUS acoustic data after the accident were not made aware of the known torpedo battery issue but speculated an accidentally fired torpedo turned and struck the Scorpion, but that was challenged due to a lack of acoustic evidence of a high order explosion preceding the break up noises.

One of the scientists, when made aware of the problem with the battery and resulting hot runs 20 years later, did sub simulator tests with a sub captain, who immediately ordered a 180 degree turn to disarm the torpedo. His conclusion was the battery issue could have resulted in a low order detonation in the tube, blowing both the inner and outer hatches and opening the torpedo room to the sea, initiating the sinking.

That is consistent with classified sections of the US Navy Board of Inquiry report that listed the Mk 37 torpedo problems as the likely cause.

The US Navy however refused to re open the investigation about 10 years ago. Like most services, they are not inclined to re-open old wounds and shine a light on things kept covered at the time, even when all the folks who made those decisions are retired or dead. Transparency would inevitably bring into question the processes and priorities in place at the time, and would raise uncomfortable questions about whether those process and priorities have ever changed.

Our definitions of small probably vary. Even the “small” 688 class attack subs were 362’ long, displaced nearly 7,000 long tons, and could do a bit over 30 kts submerged. The Soviet Alpha class subs were smaller at 3,200 tons (about the size of a late WWII! post WWII Sumner or Gearing class destroyer) but were capable of 40 plus knots submerged.

The Ohio class boomers were 500’ long and nearly 19,000 long tons, and they were smaller than the Russian Borei class (24,000 tons) and Typhoon class (48,000 tons).

The point here is that when you have attack subs tracking each other or tracking ballistic missile subs, and then one of them makes a sudden course or speed change, often to detect a tracking sub marine it doesn’t know for sure is there, the physics of inertia and limited turning circles for single screw vessels can make life interesting.

Even with surface ships maneuvering where they can both see each other collisions still happen. Now put everyone in the dark where they rely only on acoustic information and see what happens. There isn’t any need to intentionally play chicken to trade paint.

Same year my Dad (a Submariner) retired from the Navy.

Did you mean to say 4,000 feet?

A young man from my home town was on the Scorpion. I did not know him, but know his brother very well. It was a loss still felt in our home town.

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Bill

Maybe but not likely.

In February or March, 1968 the Russian Submarine K-129 was lost with all hands.

This event was followed by the lost of the Scorpion in May, 1968.

I have watched a interview with two Russian Admirals that insist we sank the K-129. At the time we very interested in Russian missile and submarine technology. The recovery of the K-129 was a secret CIA project attempted in 1974.

A more likely theory is the Scorpion was sunk by the Russians in tit for tat retaliation of the sinking of K-129. With both sides demonstrating their ability to sink their opponents submarines cooler head prevailed to avoid the Cold War from going hot and the cloak of secrecy was put on the loss of Scorpion.

There is a lot of information about the events of the time that the Scorpion was lost if you want to dive into lt.

I’ve read just about everything out there on the Scorpion’s loss. The theory that it was sunk by a Soviet sub is nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation and conspiracy theory.

The general theory claims the Soviet Navy might have used intelligence transmitted by the John Walker spy ring to determine the Scorpion’s position and then ambush it in retaliation for the alleged sinking of the K-129 by the US Navy. Both the Soviet and US navies then colluded to cover up the the two incidents. However, these theories rely solely on conjecture, anonymous sources, and a presumed cover-up rather than any concrete evidence.

It’s remotely possible but it has to be ranked last behind the battery fire, trash disposal unit malfunction, hydrogen build up and explosion, and hot running torpedo theories.

The TDU failure runs a close second and is at least supported by Scorpion’s truncated experimental version of its Sub Safe overhaul and history of mechanical problems.

The acoustic evidence just doesn’t support it being hit by a torpedo.

Little OT, but just watch a show on the US ship USS Eagle 56 sunk by a U Boat off Maine. How a group of private divers had to find it to prove it was a torpedo and not a boiler explosion.


My best friend through high school went into the Navy and was assigned to a Nuclear powered attack sub. He had some amazing stories to tell!


75 Years After it Vanished, Divers Find USS Eagle 56 | War History Online

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Still Running Against the Wind

In 1974 the Glomar Explorer salvaged part of K-129, they revovered some of the crew's remains. The Navy conducted a proper funeral service for them with a Russian Orthodox priest officiating.

Thresher was taken down to max rated depth for testing.

I was told by people who were in position to know that a reactor fault occurred, taking drive power with it. The crew tried to reset, but it wouldn't, and sank to crush depth before they could get going again.

Inquiry revealed that system had been setup such that the reactor reset had a 7 minute delay on it. The crew couldn't reset it in time.

Later discussion with the engineer that set it a 7 revealed it was completely arbitrary. He had to pick a number, and 7 is what come to mind.

Like Airbus disasters that followed, software killed people.

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I've still got it made.

I remember both tragedy’s well. I served in the submarine service from ‘64 to ‘68.
Got out of the Navy in February of ‘68.
May they never be forgotten. RIP

From what I've read about the Thresher loss. a flooding casualty in the engineering plant caused the reactor to scram, leading to the loss of normal propulsion. The normal response would be to shift to the emergency propulsion motor (powered by the boats battery bank) until the reactor can be restarted and steam pressure restored to the engines and turbine generators. If the flooding occurred in the reactor system, a restart might have been impossible. If the flooding could not be stopped the Thresher could have initiated an emergency blow of the ballast tanks. There was speculation among some authorities that this is what she attempted to recover and return to the surface but the air lines leading to the ballast tanks froze up and prevented enough water being blown from the ballast tanks.
The SUBSAFE program that was mentioned did not come into effect until after the loss of the Thresher.

I am not an expert, but I have experience. I was stationed on Oahu when K-129 went down. I have communicated with many authors over the years, and have met some of the most vocal theorists.
My copious notes are long gone and I rarely talk about "Eternal Patrols."

I was in the Navy from 1967-71. After Boot, I went to BSEE (electronic) school and Anti-submarine Warfare (Torpedoman) school in San Diego. My first duty station was Subase Pearl Harbor. There were 2 torpedo shops on the base: Mk 14-16 steam fish "John Waynes", and Mk 37 and Mark 45. These were "practice fish" with no war heads. Warshots were off-loaded at West Loch, an ammunition base on the other side of the harbor. This was the infamous "2nd Pearl Harbor" in 1944. It was the best duty, if you could handle the constant wheeling about, and grounding of the 300# warheads.
We calibrated warshot torpedoes for the fleet. Post-patrol fish were off-loaded, and brought in to us to perform a "Deck check" simulated run. There were about 12-13 of us in a very tight unit of dedicated technicians. We had 2 teams of 3, that were QA'ed by 2 retired TM's (E-8, E-9). Shortly after my arrival 2 of us were sent to a 16 week Mk37 school at Anti-submarine Warfare School in San Diego.
Every 6 or so months, Keyport Wa. sent a Quality Assurance team to randomly pull tested and sealed fish from our "Ready Bank" to analyze potential performance. We never received less than 4.0 performance.
Although none of our fish would have been aboard the Scorpion, we had Brass from everywhere poking, prodding, and asking questions.
After the Scorpion disaster, we would simulate setting and sonar issues utilizing a Mk 281 test set for settings, and the Mk 347 for sonar signals and Doppler effects. I don't remember the exploder test unit, as I seldom devoted time to final pressure testing and seal integrity.
My next duty station was a new Sub tender in Norfolk, Va. I was stationed at the home port of the Scorpion on the USS L Y Spear. After a short stay in Charlston to load weapons, we returned to Norfolk to ready fish for the fleet boats.
Our "Old Man" was Capt. Ralph Ghormley (later R. Admiral). He was often looking over my shoulder, asking "what if" and "why" questions as I calibrated our weapons. He had been the skipper of the Scorpion in 63-65.; he had more than a vested interest, he was friends of many of our departed brothers.
I would never discuss what we may have mentioned. I have long ago forgotten the thick OPS Manuals and many memorized schematics that all started with switch K104 in the Control Unit, ACR, Anti-capture c-140, and all of the redundant safety procedures and components in place.
I can agree to mutual payback for K-129. There is/was more "hide n' seek" between boats than the average civilian can understand. I can handle an abbreviated Sub-Safe procedure; little things like welds and trash disposal can kill a boat. Until I can review schematics (Confidential/ Secret) I will never believe one of our fish sank that boat. God Bless the USS Scorpion 589 and her dedicated crew protecting us ON ETERNAL PATROL.

I’ve heard the same thing (from Submariners). The story I was told was the Scorpion left Spain en route to CONUS and was being shadowed by a Soviet submarine. The last message Scorpion sent was she was being followed by a Soviet submarine and she couldn’t lose them. (No one knew at the time that the crypto codes were compromised by the Walker spy ring) and the Soviets sank her.

I don’t know if this is what happened but this seems to be the consensus...

The men who sailed on these boats are the real deal when it comes to American heroes.

Unlike the people who we let entertain us by singing a song or chasing a ball or pretending to be someone they are not.

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Live long and prosper

When the Thresher went missing every DD in Newport RI went pinging for it including the DD 734 I was on.
We knew that we would never detect it......

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

I worked with a guy who was on the USS Chopper when it had its dive accident in 1969. Scary stuff.

I had a good friend that was one of the first black men to serve on a nuclear submarine. Although his tours of duty were at times miserable due to racism, he was very proud of his service. We talked of some of his experiences and when asked about losses he just said that inquiries were done with known issues, politics rules the day. I asked him if he ever say anything interesting and he mentioned being on late watch while at harbor in Maine, an attack sub came into port with tarps covering her entire sail area, a large portion of which was missing. He then went on to talk about missing subs and the fact that it was not b.s. about subs from different countries nearly running into each other by "accident". Not too far off from playing chicken in the Clancy novel. His guess was that the other guy went high and got severely damaged while scrubbing off a good portion of the sail of our boat.