Current driveway to property is hardpacked dirt about 150' long with a bit of an uphill grade and good drainage. We are going to blade/grade the driveway and then have gravel brought in, and need to decide what type of gravel and how deep.

I was thinking that using some geo-textile fabric would be good practice for stabilization purposes.
http://www.usfabricsinc.com/products...ayfabric.shtml

We had the local gravel/road guy come out and he suggested the fabric was unnecessary given the quality and drainage of the current dirt base. He said 6" of base rock and 4" of top rock would make a driveway that would last for very long time. Could be he was trying to sell more gravel by dissuading the use of the fabric but who knows.

6" base and 4" top is a lot of $$gravel$$, particularly given it may be quite some time before we can build on this property, but I'd like to improve on the dirt situation for access to the property in wet conditions when it can get slick in places preventing passenger car access to the property.
So I'm thinking 4" or 6" base with 2" top for now under the assumption that I can always add top rock as traffic on the driveway increases.

What has been others experience with installing or maintaining gravel driveways? Has anyone used the fabric? What depth did you go to with the rock?

No fabric on mine - just large base rocks cut in with a dozer and packed with 6" of top coat gravel - been driving on it daily for 13 years with no problems. Key is solid base.

Having been in the logging business, I can tell you good drainage is the key. I have built plenty of temporary roads that would hold up log trucks in wet weather with no gravel and have had to use existing poorly drained roads that 3 feet of gravel would sink out of site.

Get your site work done when its dry, don't skimp on culverts, and you will have a good road without needing a large amount of gravel.

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"Give me Liberty..."

There's several issues with upgrading (no pun intended) a road. Drainage is an important part, another is just what kind of soil you have. Ditching and culverts are a very important part of the process. Too many culverts are better than having to go back and add them. BTW, we had a road about the length you have put in lo, many years ago. IIRC, there's about 225 tons of rock in there total. You don't necessarily have to put the rock on all at once (we did, we needed to get construction equipment in). Never used the fabric, not sure about its worth, but doubt it.

Probably the biggest issue is the size of your base rock. I wouldn't go smaller than #3 as a base rock. I'd suggest applying this about 4-6 inches deep and see what happens in wet weather. When #3s quit disappearing in wet weather, then you can move to smaller rock (#57 or so), possibly followed by rock dust to provide an asphalt like final surface.

See if you can find a cross section of how Romans built their roads. Some of those are still in use with only minor pot-hole filling. In softer soils, they'd go as deep as 3 feet with head sized rocks-or bigger-and the rocks got smaller as they went up. The working surface was paving stones set in sand. Good drainage was a must for them, should be for you too.

Check at your supply source for a material called 'hardpack'.

That's what I used. It's a mixture of crushed stone (pieces about 1/2 to 3/4" MIXED with 'stone dust'.

Once applied and subsequently wet by rain, the mixture packs down hard. Not as good as concrete, but it makes a durable hard surface.

My depth is about 5 to 6 inches over sand.

Even with a muddier base, the stone dust mixture will help bond the material and prevent excessive sinking into the substrate.
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Wayne02:

I'm on the rainy side of the Cascades in Orygun. My drive is a loop about twice your length, well drained but has a hillside seep that affects part of it.

After 15 years of filling-in pot holes repeatedly, about 4 years ago we had a guy scrape some of the old mud out and laid in a topping of what they call here "driveway mix" (3/4" minus) followed by a large vibrator-roller.

That has worked very well since. No ground cloth, but I do have to spray for weed control.

Friends have done their driveways in the extremes...from high $$ to econo style.....those with proper drainage and larger base rock under the compacted top serve far better.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

Definitely. We called it 1/2" blend. The gravel drive in NJ was a half-mile long and holds up very well with just an annual re-grading.

The drive here is about 200 yards long and has the same 1/2 - 3/4" blend. It holds up well even though there is a downward slope to it. You have to maintain good drainage so that the gravel doesn't wash away after being loosened up in the spring thaw and then rained on.

We also just spritz weed control on it every so often.

Your road guy knows what he is talking about. A good gravel road takes lots of rock. Fabric is a lining for someone else's pocket.

The bottom rock wants to be big. Cap rock is 1" or so. Put on a proper base. You will most likely still add rock over the years but as the logger says, a proper base will keep your rock from sinking out of sight.

Hi Barb,
When we built our house I thought that the contractor used a large amount of rock.
On the other hand the neighbor put in an identical driveway using less rock with the same slope and subject to the same weather etc.
In the spring his would pump up while ours stayed (what else?) Rock solid.
Most of the year it didn't matter but in the spring or wet weather I felt better about the contarctors use of the extra rock.
Good luck
Mike

Good morning, Wayne!

As this thread progresses, you will probably see as many road-building variations as there are posters. And this is for good reason; there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to properly constructing a driveway or road. In a 25 mile radius of my home in central Indiana, there are driveways/roads made of GRAVEL and there are driveways/roads made of CRUSHED LIMESTONE. The procedures for installing a driveway/road are quite different for each material.

Concrete and asphalt driveways/roads in our area also vary widely: Both materials are made utilizing either GRAVEL or CRUSHED LIMESTONE. Years ago, crushed shale was also used.

Geo-textile fabric matting is an absolute must in certain areas nearby and an unnecessary expense in others.

As one will quickly imagine, the strength and longevity of the finished peoduct depends upon many, many different factors: Soil type, moisture levels, compaction, grade, climate, materials used . . . the list goes on.

Your local highway/roads commissioner, excavating contractors, quarry operator, builder's association, county building inspectors, etc. etc. may all be good sources of information, for properly desinging and building a driveway in your particular area.

With a little homework, you'll have a driveway that will give you many years of service with minimal maintenance. Good luck, Wayne!


George

Purdue - Building Construction & Contracting
Former Project Manager - Light Commercial Construction

~Smile~

> He said 6" of base rock and 4" of top rock would make a driveway that would last for very long time.

Will not argue with his suggestion of 6" of base rock and 4" of top rock. I will STRONGLY SUGGEST that you used CRUSHED rock instead of gravel. Smooth edged gravel will roll around and some will migrate to the sides and drainage area beside the driveway. The sharp edges of crushed stone help it stay in place and pack tight.

The crushed rock is usually gravel or limestone that has been run through a crusher. Crushed limestone is more available than crushed gravel, in my area.

I put 4" - 6" of #3 crushed limestone (estimate 3/4" - 2" size) on a strip of lawn parallel to my driveway, for secondary parking, twelve years ago. After six years all the crushed stone had all been driven into the dirt, and grass was growing through it. It is still usable in all weather. IF this was my primary drive was I would have kept adding more #3 until it stopped sinking and then started putting a layer of smaller crushed stone. Local provider has a mix called Dense Pack which is a mixture of sizes - small sized pieces pack in between the larger sized pieces. Sounds like the Hardpack that Titan mentioned.

You might want to ask your highway department for information and suggestions. They spend your tax dollars build road that are expected to last for years with heavy use. They will be familiar with the local soils and availability of materials.

Bekeart

You may want to contact a local Geotechnical company in you area and ask them for advice.. A driveway for your home is a light duty road, so I would stay away from a geofabric. If possible, you could do a proofroll using a fully loaded tandem axle dump truck. By having the truck run up and down your driveway, any soft areas in the soil can be identified. Undercut the soft areas and place additional stone in them. I would go with 4 to 6 inches of # 2 stone, topped with 3 to 4 inches of # 304 stone or # 57 stone. If you use # 304 stone ( that's stone with a fine granular base) you can compact it over the # 2 stone. However, when # 304 stone is wet, it can be messy, when it's wet you will track a fine paste into your home, so I would go with a # 57 stone, which is # 304 stone without the fines.

As for drainage, run perforated pipe down each side of the driveway. Bury the pipe 4 to 6 inches as you go down the slope of the drive.You will need a trencher or backhoe to do this, unless your willing to do it by hand, and not many people are. Without proper drainage, the life of you driveway will be much shorter, and you will be making repairs often. As a construction inspector, I deal with these issues daily, but more in commerical construction then housing construction, but the principal is the same. Good luck, this project will not be cheap, but doing it right the first time will save you money in the long run.

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OGCA Member.

In Illinois we were in clay, had about 300’ drive, drainage not good, and no place for ditches, which by the way always work if they can drain. The local experts suggested large course rock (crushed limestone) added over the course of 2 years. We didn’t intend to build for three yrs. We had loads put in spring and fall then spring again, driving over it plus the loaded rock trucks when it was soft gave us a good base. Smaller rock was then used to top it off.
We did try “road pack” but as someone said it’s messy in wet conditions. ½’ rock is better IMO, you can rake it if you have a hole.

Here in the sand you could not make a puddle with a fire hose. 1" rock works well, but in really wet conditions tends to wash down hill.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Consider rolled "crusher run" gravel about 3"-4" deep for a driveway. New gravel roads in my area require a 6" compacted crusher run surface on the base. This is a bit overkill for a normal drive unless you will have heavy trucks, tractors, or buses in and out on a regular basis.

Crusher run is a common/regional term for the concept Indiana Georege expertly described: a varied stone size from 1 1/2" to 1/2" combined with stone dust and stone fragments. It compacts very tightly thanks to the crushed stone dust & frags and will last much longer than a washed, uniform gravel. Clean, uniform gravel doesn't compact well to hold the surface and shape.

It will cost a bit more to have the crusher run shaped and compacted/rolled vs. a mere tailgate spread of clean stone, but its well worth it for a good drive.

Be sure your base is solid and drains well. If you don't have a solid base (such as compacted shale) you will have the problem Bekeart described. Soft soils/top soils should be removed and replaced with a compacted base before adding the surface of compacted stone. The base, surface and shoulders should work together to make for good drainage to prevent washout and/or saturation.

You nearest quarry may be able to provide what we commonly call here "dirty" crusher run. The stone, dust, and frags are not as clean as regular crusher run, but is also cheaper and works just fine for driveways.

Crusher run is usually just a little moist when delivered which helps in the compaction. A well done drive with comacted crusher run will look almost like concrete when first finished and will be almost as hard. There is no cement to bond the aggregate (stones, stone dust & frags) but it will be very tight and look almost as smooth and hard as conrete. After a few rains, the thin layer of stone dust on top will wash away and the drive will look more gravle and less like concrete, but it will remain hard and strong for years with the stone dust and frags compacted 3-4" thick.

Compacted crusher run may look a bit like concrete when bran new, but no gravel surface will last forever. After many years and much use, the crusher run will loosen as the stone dust gradually wears and washes away.

We've had the best luck when we've used a plate compactor to lock it together tighter. Spinning tires don't tear it up as easy.

Here's another thought, Wayne:

In our community of around 150,000+ people, I can think of three fellows who retired after 30 years or more in the road construction and paving business.

An afternoon's worth of expertise could be had from any of the three for the price of a friendly handshake and cup of coffee. More information than you could ever use for the price of lunch!!! ~Smile~

I'm sure that these gentlemen exist in your community as well.

Thanks very much for the replies, as usual this forum is such a wealth of information on so much more than just S&W's.

Found these pictures to illustrate the situation a little better.

This is from the bottom of the driveway looking up. All those Christmas trees will be taken out and the road will be widened 10' to the left (looking up from the bottom). The various tree limbs to the right will be trimmed back. You can see that the road slopes down and to the right. The area to the right is basically jungle which progressively drops off down to 4-5 feet from the road elevation. Though I've never seen much of any run-off, I'm assuming that this is where the water naturally wants to go.




This is the top of the driveway looking down, the dozer is in the same position as the first picture.

Several posts here gave good advice for various situations. In addition to drainage and grade, soil type and climate need to be considered. Rather than make the wrong choice for your particular location and donate a chunk of money to to a contractor that may, or may not, have your best interest at heart, talk to your local county or township engineer to see what they recommend. Around here, if a long driveway is shared by more than one residence, the township will take over maintenance and repair, if it's built to their specs. Give them a call and get advice from the experts who already know what type of roadbed is best for your soil and climate. It won't cost anything and, unlike here, you can be certain they know what they are talking about.
I listened to the wrong local "experts" about how to build my 700 ft long driveway when I built the house and it did not go well. The base stone wasn't large enough and many tons of crushed stone sank from sight before a new base of #4 stone was laid...end of problem. It's now stable and the uphill portion no longer gets "washboard". If it remains stable through the coming winter, I hope to have it "blacktopped" next summer.

I understand the concept of "crowning" the road for drainage off both sides, but in a situation like this where you have natural slope off to one side does a person still want to 'crown' it in the center or try to get all the run-off to channel in the natural slope direction?

I'm thinking about running the 4" perforated pipe up the left side of the road (looking up from the bottom) and 'T' ing off every so many feet to cross the road with a pipe that exits the the side of the road on the right and drains into the jungle area below. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure about running a pipe up the right side of the road since it is so close to the drop off anyway?

Thanks

To keep the cost down initially, why not put in a good base of #2 or #3 crushed limestone or other crushed rock. That is better than using round gravel of any description. Put in 4 - 6 inches of base and drive on it for a year or two before adding finer top layers. That way you can see if the base is adequate before adding the topping. If the base starts to disappear in the mud, you will be able to add more base to correct any problems.

Sounds like you are on the right track regarding drainage.Seems the driveway should be graded to be level side-to-side rather than sloped to one side, if that is what I understood you to say.

Myron

OK, now that we've actually seen the area in question it does help quite a bit.

You're going to have to cut into the bank on the upper side to produce the flat area of the roadbed. You'll want to have a drainage ditch on the upper side of the roadbed to prevent water from running over the surface of the road from higher up and washing mud onto the road and road material that you paid for off the road. The ditch should be deep enough for 12" culverts plus some material on top the culvert at appropriate places to carry water under the road if necessary/advisable. If your drive crosses any swale, it's a natural place to run water from the high side to the low. Given the visible slope, I wouldn't personally bother with a ditch on the low side. The ditch on the upper side is a must, 14-18 inches is a good depth so a monsoon won't wash over your road.

Real roads are crowned to direct water to their ditches on either side. Most driveways don't bother with the concept since they're only one lane wide. If you crown a driveway and then plow it in winter, pretty soon there's no crown and a whole lot of stone that you paid for somewhere else.

Use the dozer to compact your initial loads of stone into the soil. Bigger hit up front, less aggravation later. As several of us have said, make your base # 2 or 3 stone.

At the road, most counties/states only install a 20 foot culvert-that you may have to pay for. Depending upon the road you're pulling out on, that may not be enough if you pull trailers. My farm has a 30 foot and 40 foot culvert on different entrances to make sure I can get onto the @#$% state road without driving through ditches.

Just to add my $.02 to WR Moore, the uphill side ditch will be a road saver, put in deep enough and with enough slope to prevent standing water and snow melt, you will never be sorry you spent the money.

Yes you can always add rock later, but if you get the big stuff down right in the first place, you will save later pain.
In my experience you will eventually end up with a crown since the drive will pack at your wheel width.

I had a 3’ dip in the drive about 150’ from the house, there was a culvert, but the field drainage in the spring turned the drive into a dam at that point. Many miserable hours spent opening that culvert. At that point I would have killed for a ditch.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus