Murder Scene Cleanup Question

I have found to get the job done and remain professional is to be detached from the whole thing..and think about it later. That's what we do that's what we get paid for.

If it is a natural death I always express my condolences to the family and try to be as comforting as possible while getting the job done. Honestly you never know if they killed the person and you have to look at it from all angles even if they appear innocent. I hate that side of it but again it's my job.

More people have been killed by husbands or wives coming home early.

neorebel said:

I have found to get the job done and remain professional is to be detached from the whole thing..and think about it later. That's what we do that's what we get paid for.

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Exactly. People sometimes think the I'm uncaring or callous, but I'm not. I'm a professional and my profession is dealing with sick, injured, and sometimes dead people. If I appear uncaring, it's because maintaining clinical detachment is the only way I can do my job effectively.

C.S.I. makes me laugh. When they are not doing forensics, they are doing real cop work like questioning the perks, breaking down doors, and making arrests. What ****!

When I was a cop, they were very little forensics other than what the coroner provided. The mess was cleaned up by Firemen (God Bless 'Um)
I couldn't have dealt with that day in and day out. The homicide dicks that showed up took photographs, collected weapons, if any, but not much else. Time frame has a lot to do with it. Before I left the force, they had started a crime scene unit, but not much changed. We certainly didn't have labs, and all of that. If the case was big enough, they would send it to the F.B.I. lab, later the State Capital developed a forensic lab, but those were the old days. Now, things are different, but I still don't think they would have highly trained forensic scientists breaking down doors and engaging in shoot-outs as TV would have you believe.

We had homicide dicks that would talk to the corpses. I used to think it was disrespectful as a rookie, then I realized that was their coping mechanicism. We all had them.

Several notes!

Years ago when I was the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner of Dade County (Miami) Fl., a guy killed his wife and threw her body in their septic tank where she stayed for a couple of weeks before we found her. What a mess! Their insurance company refused to have the tank pumped out for the mortgage holder.

Some of the worst scenes are when someone rents a car, drives to a remote location in the hot summer time and hooks up a hose to the exhaust and commits suicide. If they are not found in 3 or 4 days, the rental car companies tell me that they have the cars crushed. Just no way to ever get the odor out.

Blood has no odor until it begins to decompose and then the odor is almost impossible to get rid of. I am just glad that I am now retired from this smelly business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

medxam

My old gun show partner was the county coroner. He held the position for decades, and before that he worked in a funeral home for his 55 years in the business. Yes, he had plenty of stories. But his favorite line was "my work is done here". Implying someone else gets the honors of clean up.

You guys can complain all you want about CSI. I like the scenery so I will continue to watch it. Besides my wife likes the drama part. She watches what she pleases, its on so I have no choice but to watch!

My wife and I take turns. If she does the murder, I clean up. And vice versa.

I own a crime scene cleanup company (http://eugenecrimescenecleanup.com) and in my experience, insurance companies not only pay for the cleanup, but prefer it's done by a professional company. Hosing down a scene is not only illegal, but a huge risk to public health.

On a side note, there are enzymatic cleaners that we use to remove biohazards, and while most people immediately think of bleach as the perfect cleaning solution, hydrogen peroxide is actually the cleaner of choice. It foams in the presence of biomaterial.

By the time we get on scene, the blood and other material is usually dried up, coagulated, or otherwise harder to clean than if it were done immediately after the incident. Blood and body tissue travel an amazingly long way, so a reputable company checks everywhere for bits and pieces.

For you novel, and personal knowledge, I guess, police and other first responders are usually not allowed to refer a specific crime scene cleanup company and will usually advise people to check the phone book or internet. While I've never seen it, I imagine there are some companies that will listen to a police scanner and try to show up at the scene and leave a card or speak with a home owner, sort of ambulance chasing.

Another little detail to lend authenticity to your novel: It's more than the blood and body fluid that needs cleaning. Paramedics will leave behind a ton of tubing, equipment wrappers, even gloves. Police will leave behind fingerprint dust, gloves and crime scene tape. There's a good chance blood will be tracked to the door everyone's using to enter and exit the scene, and if there's a pet, that's a whole other issue. Imagine Fido scared, upset, tracking blood all over the house, and having to be dealt with.

Sometimes, because people don't know who to call, they try to clean the scene themselves, or their church will send in members to help out. Bad ideas all the way around. Crime scene companies are expensive for a reason, and worth the cost.

sipowicz said:

My wife and I take turns. If she does the murder, I clean up. And vice versa.

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Now that's cooperation! Love to see a good marriage working as a team!

I keep thinking about that guy pranking the telemarketer asking if they can get blood out of the carpets, and come right away.

MayraMM said:

I own a crime scene cleanup company (Raven Recovery Crime Scene Cleanup | Mayra Martinez 541-232-3036 * Michael Barrett 541-844-5004) and in my experience, insurance companies not only pay for the cleanup, but prefer it's done by a professional company. Hosing down a scene is not only illegal, but a huge risk to public health.

On a side note, there are enzymatic cleaners that we use to remove biohazards, and while most people immediately think of bleach as the perfect cleaning solution, hydrogen peroxide is actually the cleaner of choice. It foams in the presence of biomaterial.

By the time we get on scene, the blood and other material is usually dried up, coagulated, or otherwise harder to clean than if it were done immediately after the incident. Blood and body tissue travel an amazingly long way, so a reputable company checks everywhere for bits and pieces.

For you novel, and personal knowledge, I guess, police and other first responders are usually not allowed to refer a specific crime scene cleanup company and will usually advise people to check the phone book or internet. While I've never seen it, I imagine there are some companies that will listen to a police scanner and try to show up at the scene and leave a card or speak with a home owner, sort of ambulance chasing.

Another little detail to lend authenticity to your novel: It's more than the blood and body fluid that needs cleaning. Paramedics will leave behind a ton of tubing, equipment wrappers, even gloves. Police will leave behind fingerprint dust, gloves and crime scene tape. There's a good chance blood will be tracked to the door everyone's using to enter and exit the scene, and if there's a pet, that's a whole other issue. Imagine Fido scared, upset, tracking blood all over the house, and having to be dealt with.

Sometimes, because people don't know who to call, they try to clean the scene themselves, or their church will send in members to help out. Bad ideas all the way around. Crime scene companies are expensive for a reason, and worth the cost.

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Thanks. Because this fictional murder took place on a college campus in one of their buildings. I think their janitors may get stuck with the job. I'm still visualizing the floor. If blood has soaked into wood, it may have to be replaced. Ditto linoleum or other floor covering.

The regents or some deparment head may be heard to complain about the cost and bother. I have one obnoxious guy in mind to do that. He's the heroine's department head, who will prove to be involved in a fraud that led to the murder.

Texas Star: If the body was left there for a while, dripping blood onto the hardwood floor, it's quite possible it would have seeped to the floor below (depending on how he was killed and how long he was there, of course, and whether he died immediately or lingered). You can have a growing blood stain in the ceiling of the dorm room below the crime scene. The janitor can make it worse by pouring water on the blood stain, trying to mop it up.

If it's a carpeted floor, the janitor would try shampooing the carpet, not knowing the stain is actually many times larger underneath the carpet, padding,and floorboards. If it was a gruesome murder, the janitor would probably miss some tissue somewhere, perhaps a ceiling fan or heater vent, which would eventually evidence itself by the smell and insect activity. it is not unusual for fingers, piece of flesh, or skull bits to be left behind.

Did you ever watch Sopranos? The episode where Tony curb stomped some guy who was making rude comments to his daughter? Later in therapy Tony has his legs crossed, and sees a bloody tooth caught in the cuff of his pants. You could do something like that, a tooth caught in between cushions on the couch or an eye peering out from under the bed. Sounds like a fun scene to write!

Crime scene cleanup??


No problem, just ask Marcellus to call The Wolf!

MayraMM said:

Texas Star: If the body was left there for a while, dripping blood onto the hardwood floor, it's quite possible it would have seeped to the floor below (depending on how he was killed and how long he was there, of course, and whether he died immediately or lingered). You can have a growing blood stain in the ceiling of the dorm room below the crime scene. The janitor can make it worse by pouring water on the blood stain, trying to mop it up.

If it's a carpeted floor, the janitor would try shampooing the carpet, not knowing the stain is actually many times larger underneath the carpet, padding,and floorboards. If it was a gruesome murder, the janitor would probably miss some tissue somewhere, perhaps a ceiling fan or heater vent, which would eventually evidence itself by the smell and insect activity. it is not unusual for fingers, piece of flesh, or skull bits to be left behind.

Did you ever watch Sopranos? The episode where Tony curb stomped some guy who was making rude comments to his daughter? Later in therapy Tony has his legs crossed, and sees a bloody tooth caught in the cuff of his pants. You could do something like that, a tooth caught in between cushions on the couch or an eye peering out from under the bed. Sounds like a fun scene to write!

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Mayra-

Good advice! But the body was discovered by janitors within two or so hours, and the M.E. removed it after a few hours. It was a stabbing, with 12 wounds, some slashes. The killer seemed furious or scared, and wasn't clinically precise. Probably didn't know the best places to stab for a quick kill with a blade, either.There was an intense struggle, with blood on some furniture and on a wall, where the deceased was pushed.

It was in a campus office building,so no lurid scene of blood dripping through the ceiling to terrify coeds in the room below, in a dorm. That'd play well in a slasher movie, though.

Later, there is a shooting in a convenience store, with more potential for gore to be left behind. One predator is hit in the back of the head with a Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok .357 from a S&W M-66 (four-inch bbl.), and, to steal a line from, "MacBeth", he promptly departed this world, not standing upon the order of his going. (No, that isn't how I phrased it. Just playing here.) But that hit would have made a mess of his face on exit, I think. I wouldn't want to have to clean the residue off of the nearest display of pop or candy in the store.

I wasn't trying for a really shocking, grisly scene to gross out the reader. It's pretty grim, as-is. Dwells on some contemplative issues with the detective thinking of the deceased's final thoughts and the pain the victim felt. Remarks on the way that the crimson contents of his arteries had stained his body. The detective is a cerebral, introspective sort, able to think outside the box. (I've met some cops who have problems visualizing anything they haven't encountered.)

I try to write the way that the old credo of the USAF Air Policeman read: "I wear my shield of authority with dignity and restraint..." I try to apply that to my prose in emotional, grisly scenes. The details will create the right atmosphere without the need for overkill. And the sex scenes will be descriptive, but tasteful. I like the way that David Lindsey wrote his earlier books, but want a little more accessibility for average readers who don't want to use a dictionary or thesaurus often. And the plot should move a little faster than some of his did. (If you have not read his books like, "Spiral", "Mercy", "A Cold Mind", etc., you are in for a treat if you find them. "Requiem For a Glass Heart" had a murder scene that was masterfully plotted and described.

Faulkner said that modern authors (of his day) tended to write not of the heart, but of the glands. David Lindsey did both, so effectively that you may find yourself crying for some of the characters, even for one murderess. He now uses the byline of Paul Harper and is back in print after seven years. However, his current work didn't impress me as much as his earlier ones. It is still good. He once very graciously autographed all of his books for me, although a store owner wanted only new purchases signed. His best work is stunning in its excelllence, with grace and style that eludes most thriller authors. I hope to do as well, although our styles differ some.

Hey: isn't it likely that there'd be a sign-in log for anyone who entered the crime scene?

Oh: sorry, no I never watched, "The Sopranos." Didn't get that channel.

I don't know what happens at a scene before we get there. When we do, there are no cops around; just a relative or landlord, maybe a neighbor to let us in. One thing my company does is videotape as we enter a scene for the first time, and take tons of pictures before and after. This is to protect ourselves from being accused of stealing. If there's a pile of money or jewelry on the nightstand, we document it, photograph it before and after, and will usually tell next of kin, on tape, that it's there.

One more thing, with your store shooting, there could be evidence anywhere. If we come across say a shell casing or slug, even a bloody knife, we leave it where we found it, photograph it, and call the police in to remove it. They're supposed to deal with it, chain of evidence and all, but occasionally someone might get lazy and ask for it to be bagged up and dropped off. It's been known to happen, tho not to me personally. I can only imagine what a defense attorney might do with that information.

Sometimes people try to clean up before we get there. They think they have the blood all cleaned up because they can't see anything, but if you Luminol the area, it would light up like a Christmas display. Regular soaps and bleach just don't cut it.

MayraMM said:

Sometimes people try to clean up before we get there. They think they have the blood all cleaned up because they can't see anything, but if you Luminol the area, it would light up like a Christmas display. Regular soaps and bleach just don't cut it.

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We use H2O2 to clean up the ambulances after bloody calls. It's great not only for dissolving blood, but for sorting out what is blood and what isn't.

As you say, it's amazing how much blood and other bodily fluids can fly around. We'll go over the equipment and vehicle three or four times and still find stuff on the fifth.

Our supply section is responsible for deconing portable equipment and they spend a lot of time on cleaning. We have two rooms just set aside for washing and sterilizing equipment.

Plus we red bag disposables and drop them off at hospitals.

We try not to leave wrappers and such at the scene since it contaminates the crime scene. That's also part of how we operate in general since we tend to do as much as possible in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Other services spend more (too much IMHO) time on scene doing things that should be done on the way to the hospital if they should be done at all.

Just more background in case you decide to have your victim die at the hospital instead of at the scene. <G>

"Hey: isn't it likely that there'd be a sign-in log for anyone who entered the crime scene?"

Yes, if the crime is a biggie. I assign one or two guys to tape the scene off (depends on how big the scene is) and another to keep the log as soon as we determine what we may have. We use a pre-printed sheet. Anybody going inside the tape is put on the log, and everybody on the log who a department member is required to write a report about what they did there. The log is also submitted as a report.

When we adopted the report rule ("You go in, you gotta write about it."), it really cut down the number of officers that wanted to go in to rubberneck. I remember with pride the first time I got to say, "With all due respect, Sheriff, get the f*** out of my crime scene!"

BUFF said:

"Hey: isn't it likely that there'd be a sign-in log for anyone who entered the crime scene?"

Yes, if the crime is a biggie. I assign one or two guys to tape the scene off (depends on how big the scene is) and another to keep the log as soon as we determine what we may have. We use a pre-printed sheet. Anybody going inside the tape is put on the log, and everybody on the log who a department member is required to write a report about what they did there. The log is also submitted as a report.

When we adopted the report rule ("You go in, you gotta write about it."), it really cut down the number of officers that wanted to go in to rubberneck. I remember with pride the first time I got to say, "With all due respect, Sheriff, get the f*** out of my crime scene!"

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Thanks, Buff! I was concerned with rubbernecking cops, too. Good point.

I guess the detective who admitted the faculty girl to the scene will be able to explain it in writing. He has an unusually high case clearance rate and gets along with his lieutenant, who is his department mentor and former trainer when he was a rookie. And this teacher will discover the reason for the murder when she realizes what was taken from the scene.

She will also be a very valuable source of information about other faculty members who might have a motive to kill the dead prof. And she's going to become the hero's lady, hopefully for a series of books.

Fortunately, I know enough about her professional specialty (paleoanthropology) to make her seem very real. She won't be just a dumb blonde with a "killer" (pun intended ) bod.
I like to create compex, believable characters and situations.

I sort of half based her on a college teacher whom I had for a Primate Behavior class. She looked great in miniskirts, but was kind of a PC witch. The fictional girl will have a much better sense of humor and be quite witty and perceptive.

BUFF said:

The most realistic police series on television was Barney Miller.

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After a career of more than 28 years in the NYPD, I can attest to the 100% accuracy of Buff's statement quoted above. With respect to crime scenes in NYC, they're generally "released" fairly quickly, usually immediately after processing by the Crime Scene Unit or, for lesser crimes, by the Borough Evidence Collection Unit. Hope this helps.

Very interesting post. I can't imagine some of the stuff detailed here. About the worst smell I've come across is a squirrel that my dogs chewed on that was left in the hot summer sun for about 3 days. The smell was unbelievable... I was gagging just trying to put it in a plastic bag to get rid of it... with a shovel...

I can't imagine what a dead body smells like that's been sitting for a week or so....