Need schooling on Titegroup powder

I blew up a gun using Clays and it was a Browning High Power in 40S&W with .5gr over Hodgdon's maximum load. Oh, but by the way, it was the Lyman manual's maximum load! From then on, I went with the powder manufacturer's data!

We "look" by mechanical means that is usually, depending on the powder, +/- .5gr for the pistol cartridges I load and the powders I use...

This again is a reason that I do not use Titegroup......my loading process.

And, bro., you need to look into each case before you set a bullet. And, I do do that. Even though I load on either a RL450B, Square Deal B, either of the XL650s I have or even my Lee Classic Cast Turret Press. Single stage, loading block, same thing.......Look each time. A chair at the right height is mandatory!

"WHO MUCH"

Skip Sackett said:

Bob, let us know the results. I can be WAY wrong but, by my perspective, Titegroup just has way too little in a case. Now, in the 9mm, it may not make a difference visually. Again, that will be perspective.

But, thanks for the heads up...........Let us know.


Oh, by the way, should you prove me wrong in my assumptions, I am 100% prepared to retract any of my statements that you feel are wrong.



Let's take the time to prove it out...........

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I'm not looking to show anyone up for being wrong. I just read more smack talk about Tightgroup than anything else and finally want a decent answer to is this stuff really as bad as people say. And yes, there will be pics. I keep ballooning my PhotoBucket account with ever more pics...

series guy said:

I do all my loading on Lyman All Americans. I have one for each caliber along with a dedicated RCBS powder measure. I use 50 round loading blocks and count each round at each step in the process. With this method you are in effect checking yourself every 5th round (end of each row). There's no doubt that a double or even triple charge would be hard to detect. That's why you pay close attention and avoid distractions when reloading.

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As this will be a very short run I will be using the Rock Chucker and measuring each powder charge in the 505 scale. Normally I load 9mm on the Lee Classic Turret with the Pro Auto.

venomballistics said:

as I think of it in more depth after having slept and thus more capable of the art of thought, the purpose of TG would seem to be a powder to address the needs of the reloader seeking economy. The maximum rounds per pound folks, looking to punch holes in paper.
as was pointed out, the stuff it a bit too hot for lead and probably should be left to at least plated bullets ... this fails the economy equation.
Well your going to test drive it in 9MM .. this might prove to fit into the nature of TG a bit better than it would in a 38 or 357. do two strings .. one with cast as you have mentioned, and a reasonable facsimile there of in plated. one or more of them will be a useful load at the end of the day allowing you to use up the rest of it before either going to something else or getting more of it.

Yours is an experiment I'd likely not conduct. I don't engineer ammo for paper punching. Every load established on my bench has a purpose off the range be it critters or combat. 357's 44's 45's 308's 30-06's 458's 223's and nearly all other caliber of guns were not designed for paper but rather for food gathering or fighting. thus, I load accordingly.
If I were to segregate a cartridge as a dedicated target shooting round, it would be the least exploited of all .. the 25 ACP
in a proper target gun it would make holes in paper with the best of them with the lowest operating cost of any re-loadable cartridge on earth.
a bucket of brass, primers, a few pounds of powder and perhaps 50 pounds of lead and you'd have a lifetime supply.

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Well it does have a dollar bill on the front of the can so I would think the low volume would be trying to say you will save a buck. And if it came down to it I think these lowly lead truncated cone 125gr lead bullets will poke holes in flesh the same as paper. It wouldn't be optimal but I can make a bunch in a hurry!

Rule3 said:

So Skip you are saying that you guys with progressive presses are eyeballing every round you make to see if it has enough powder and can tell if it is off?
I know there are powder alarms but who much does it take before the alarm sounds?

The only time I look into each case was when I batch loaded on a reloading tray. If I did that now on a turret press I would crank out 20 rounds an hour.

I think I recall someone blowing up a gun using Titegroup

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I have the room's light right over my shoulder so I can easily see in the case as I'm loading. The LNL AP has a RCBS Lock Out Die that seems to do its job with a .4gr shift in either direction. I wish it were tighter than that but that's still pretty tight. I do know from learning the hard way that I have to do more than finger tighten the powder adjustment as it will open up on me. Still have a bunch to pull... (groan) That's what I get for stopping measuring every tenth.

Skip Sackett said:

I blew up a gun using Clays and it was a Browning High Power in 40S&W with .5gr over Hodgdon's maximum load. Oh, but by the way, it was the Lyman manual's maximum load! From then on, I went with the powder manufacturer's data!

We "look" by mechanical means that is usually, depending on the powder, +/- .5gr for the pistol cartridges I load and the powders I use...

This again is a reason that I do not use Titegroup......my loading process.

And, bro., you need to look into each case before you set a bullet. And, I do do that. Even though I load on either a RL450B, Square Deal B, either of the XL650s I have or even my Lee Classic Cast Turret Press. Single stage, loading block, same thing.......Look each time. A chair at the right height is mandatory!

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I try to look at at least three different sources for load data. I have Speer, Lee, Lyman, and Hornady books and I use the powder company websites as well. If I see a big variation in one then I stick with the rest as long as they are close to each other. It kind of takes away some of the fun being this paranoid but I figure a blown apart gun is a really bad day.

I placed 4.5 grains of four commonly used powders in .45 acp cases


And in .38 spl cases.


Any guesses? Hint: one is Titegroup.

Answers tomorrow...

Sneaky, very sneaky...

My guess from left to right:

Titegroup, Win 231/HP38, Unique, Bullseye


And why am I only now realizing it's "Titegrpoup" and not "Tightgroup"... duh...

Titegroup is just another powder to me. Yeah it's fast burning and
takes up little space in the case but so do several other fast powders.
Bullseye was the whipping boy of the tremulous crowd for many years
but it seems they have shifted their focus. The admonition that a
charge of Titegroup can "hide" in a case is laughable. There seems to
be a fair amount of loading data available for Titegroup compared to
Clays and what there is for Clays should make any careful reader-
reloader treat it with caution. I don't own a S&W .40 caliber gun
and never will as it too seems to require a bit of extra caution,
but I have other reasons also. I still say the responsibility for
avoiding double charges rests squarely on the shoulders of the
handloader. Who can show a gun blown up by a load of Titegroup
that was within the published data?

Clays is not very different than Red Dot/Promo. It is an excellent powder that builds up pressure nicely without pushing the bullet very fast. This makes for an excellent low recoil load. The problem is when loaders try to make power factor or simply try to get moderate velocities with this powder. It's like saying "I want to cook a turkey using nothing but charcoal fluid" or "I want to run this diesel engine on nitromethane".

I use 2.7g Clays under a 180g Lead TC bullet to make my M&P 40 feel like an M&P9. 3.5g is the most I would use, but if I wanted to do anything more than mousefart loads, I wouldn't even think about using Clays/Red Dot.

BTW 0.8g doesn't seem like much, but it is about 25% of the case volume (minus the what the seated bullet takes up). Clays is a bulky powder and 0.8g is a big difference.

Just like Titegroup is just another powder, 40 S&W is just another pistol round. Reasonable loads and common sense care in loading make it very safe (so long as you don't have a Glock ). There is nothing to be afraid of.

Rocket, it's not fear - just advising extreme caution. While some reloaders are fastidious in their routine, ...others? Well, not so much.

I couldn't capture the proper angle with the photos but the Titegroup level is indeed a lot lower than the other three - in one case by half.

I use and appreciate TG for what it is but I am with Skip when he says that it is very easy to over charge the stuff. I'm on my best behavior while loading it.

blujax01 said:

Rocket, it's not fear - just advising extreme caution. While some reloaders are fastidious in their routine, ...others? Well, not so much.

I couldn't capture the proper angle with the photos but the Titegroup level is indeed a lot lower than the other three - in one case by half.

I use and appreciate TG for what it is but I am with Skip when he says that it is very easy to over charge the stuff. I'm on my best behavior while loading it.

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add to that the effect of its density through a volumetric powder measure.
the charge weight will deviate more than it would with a bulkier powder in a given volume. probably a good idea to stay clear of max loads with it.

I have a few loads for the 30-06 that use blue dot behind cast bullets. I use7.5 - 8 grains behind 150g 180g and 200g cast lead to produce very uniform low pressure loads.
Being as low pressure as they are, they have a safety margin large enough to allow a double charge. Not to say those wont get your attention, they certainly will. and in the 200 G variant, might make for a hard to open bolt on a double charge.
I did this to develop a small game / pest control load long ago. in this role these are praiseworthy.
the loading of them is similar to working with TG .. miniscule charges in large cases. but its the low pressure properties that keep it out of danger

Maximumbob54 said:

Sneaky, very sneaky...

My guess from left to right:

Titegroup, Win 231/HP38, Unique, Bullseye


...

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Impressive. Very impressive. You went 3 for 4!

I'm ashamed with myself. Bullseye looks nothing like 2400. I will go whip myself now.

Maximumbob54 said:

I'm ashamed with myself. Bullseye looks nothing like 2400. I will go whip myself now.

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You can blame it on the carpy cell phone pic.

That's not a bad price on Unique either at least for where I live.

I have friends that use it in 40sw with jacketed bullets and no problems. It goes a long way, fairly cheap to buy. Which is why I bought some.

I used it for 38Spl with 158gr LSWC and I learned a lesson. It burns way too hot and fast for my bullets. I had bad leading on the leading edge sides of my cylinder and in the top strap. So, even though there was load data for my caliber and specific bullet, I didn't consider burn rate. I'm back to Unique, a pain to meter but no problems and so versatile.

Rikman

I tend to land in the group that finds titegroup too hot for lead bullets. It seems to cause more leading in the barrel than say bullseye, 231 or especially Unique.

After playing with it for a few pounds, I finally gave up on it and have none anymore. I could not find a spot in my reloading plan where I could not use other powders to do the same task either safer (more case fill) or cooler.

Some folks love it though because it is cheap, dense and uses small charge weights. To me though, this is a bad combination.

Hello
I have used Tight Group almost since it was Introduced. It takes very little to get good velocity and to me burn's very clean. I use Mainly Rainier Ballistic bullet's. Rainier's bullet's have a coper flash of only 0.005" on the outside of their bullet's and they say to load them to lead bullet's Specs, Not exceeding 1200 FPS in Velocity. Currently I use Tight Group in the Hot Federal .327 Magnum as I have found good one hole result's with it. The Only other Powder I have used that comes close to this Tight Group in good group's has been using some V-V-N-350. I have a single stage C&H Brand H-Beam Loading press that is bragged on in the newer Lee reloading Manual, They use one in their factory loading round's for Testing there, and it is very Powerful and very precise. I drop the Powder through a Lee Neck expanding die using my Lyman powder measure after priming the case in my press then set the charged primed case in my loading block. I always' do a visual of all round's after dispensing the powder and have never had a double charge of the case or any Ill issues from using Tight Group, nor have I had to dump any cases back into the powder dispenser, I get very accurate charges if I take the trouble to weigh the charges on my Digital Hornady powder scale carefuly, when setting up using this powder, it never seem's to Vary in weight drop's, but that depend's on the re-loader's dispensing rhythm when dispensing it with the Lyman powder dispenser. I don't push the Maximum charge rates with it, as I have found that I don't have to, go to Max charge weight's to find the gun's sweet spot where it perform's well and show's Great groups result's on Target. I Plan on using my Perfected load of Tight Group along with a 100 Grain Rainier hollow point bullet to hunt Deer with in a few weeks when our season open's here.... I have found as long as "You, The re-loader Pay attention" when using Hodgen's Tight Group the result's are very rewarding and very, Very economical.... Hammerdown

I'm confused by the content of the powder burn rate discussions. I'm also confused by the differences in the burn rate charts I reviewed. But then I'm easily confused.

Here are the first 50 powders from one of the four I reviewed.

1. NORMA R1
2. Winchester WAALite
3. VihtaVuori N310
4. Accurate Arms Nitro 100
5. Alliant e3
6. Hodgdon TITEWAD
7. Ramshot Competition
8. Alliant Red Dot
9. Alliant Promo
10. Hodgdon CLAYS
11. Alliant Clay Dot
12. IMR, Co Hi-Skor 700-X
13. Alliant Bullseye
14. Hodgdon TITEGROUP
15. Alliant American Select
16. Accurate Arms Solo 1000
17. Alliant Green Dot
18. Winchester WST
19. IMR, Co Trail Boss
20. Winchester Super Handicap
21. Hodgdon INTERNATIONAL
22. Accurate Arms Solo 1250
23. IMR, Co PB 72
24. VihtaVuori N320
25. Accurate Arms No. 2
26. Ramshot Zip
27. IMR, Co SR 7625
28. Hodgdon HP-38
29. Winchester 231
30. Alliant 20/28
31. Alliant Unique
32. Hodgdon UNIVERSAL
33. Alliant Power Pistol
34. VihtaVuori N330
35. Alliant Herco
36. Winchester WSF
37. VihtaVuori N340
38. IMR, Co Hi-Skor 800-X
39. IMR, Co SR 4756
40. Ramshot True Blue
41. Accurate Arms No. 5
42. Hodgdon HS-6
43. Winchester AutoComp
44. Ramshot Silhouette
45. VihtaVuori 3N37
46. VihtaVuori N350
47. Hodgdon HS-7
48. VihtaVuori 3N38
49. Alliant Blue Dot
50. Accurate Arms No. 7

caution be afraid

TG is fine powder as long as you have since enough to fear it.Check visually and check again.

I've used TG for years as well all the other powders mentioned in this post. I like them all for certain loads. IMHO I like TG with FMJ loads. It works exceptionally well with 9mm and 40S&W loads. Yes you have to be hypervigilent. You should be anyway when loading. I don't like TG with lead. I get too much smoke.
On the plus side TG gives you a lot of loads for the money and it meters great. Slow down and check each round and be safe.

I'm an "Old Woman" when it come to loading. I stay far away from fast burning low density loads.

I'm old school and for multiple reasons believe load density is very important.

My target pistols are primarily .45 ACP, 38 Super and .38 Special. These all perform great with Universal Clays. I double charge will literally jump out at you.

Before Universal I used W231/HP38. Even earlier I put up with nasty ole Unique.

Dusting the bottom of a cavernous case has always bothered me.