Winchester 12 in 16 Gauge on the Way

Ben_hutcherson · Dec 20, 2014

I have the above on lay-a-way at a local shop.

I've been wanting a model 12 for a while. I'd ideally been looking for a 12 gauge, however I already reload for 16 gauge. When one became available, I could easily justify it. It was also the first 16 gauge 12 I've personally encountered, although I know they are out there.

This particular one has been "sporterized" a bit with a Pachmyar recoil pad and a Cutt's compensator. I know the Cutts is really frowned upon as a collector gun, but it's one of the practical ways to get interchangeable chokes on a model 12. I've also always been a bit intrigued by them, so wanted to try a gun with one on it.

I'll post photos and a full report when I have the gun-I was just happy to get this one, and at a decent price.

Cooter Brown · Dec 20, 2014

I think you'll like it.

The Model 12 hit the sweet spot with the 16 gauge. The 20 ga. came out first, followed by the 16 on the same frame. The 12 came out last. The 12 ga. guns are a little clubby for my taste--the 16s are perfect.

I have a 16 ga. Model 1912 from 1915 (before they shortened the name), factory cylinder choke. It gets used during bird season every year. I've killed woodcock with it and will kill a grouse with it someday.

The handling qualities, the most important criteria for a shotgun, of the old Winchester equal that of my main gun, a svelte English stocked side-by-side worth many times what the old workhorse pumpgun is.

When you get it, examine the workmanship, the machining out of solid steel of the parts which are stamped out of sheet steel on guns made in the last 60 years.

The Model 12 is a marvel of American manufacturing.

The Cutt's has a cool factor of its own and is possibly a factory option. Like me it might be ugly but it has a certain charm and utility...

30-30remchester · Dec 20, 2014

If this is your first model 12, hang on to your wallet. More are sure to come.

Ben_hutcherson · Dec 20, 2014

Thanks for the comments.

I have a '97 in 16 gauge to go with it, so I'll be interested to compare two of Winchester's best known and longest lived shotguns.

One of the things I noticed when I picked it up was how light and well balanced it was, especially compared to the 12 gauges I've handled.

As per the s/n, mine dates to the mid-1920s.

I'm pretty sure the Cutts is aftermarket, as the barrel is marked with a choke(full). From the reading I've done, the factory Cutts barrels were not marked with a choke.

And, yes, this is my first model 12.

P&R Fan · Dec 20, 2014

The M12 is one of the all time classic shotguns. I have four. A 12 gauge cylinder bore that some idiot put an adjustable choke on.

A 12 guage Riot Gun, a 20 guage and my favorite one to hunt with, a 16 guage with cylinder bore. I was skeptical to hunt pheasants with it without any choke, but when I finally did I was amazed. That thing is deadly on pheasants. The load I found that works best is 1 1/8 oz. Of #5 shot. I once kilt a pheasant deadern a doornail with that load at about 40 yards. It balances perfectly, and shoots like a house afire.
I love M12s. Especially in 16 guage.

Jim

Cooter Brown · Dec 21, 2014

In 1927 chambers were standardized at 2 3/4". You'll want to check this. Before that standardization they were chambered at 2 9/16".

Even Model 12s chambered in 2 3/4" sometimes have a bit of a problem with ejection of some brands of modern shells--they can hang up on the lower front corner of the ejection port. Some brands work better than others.

You have a Model 97 so you likely know how to find short shells. RST among others make them. B&P shells, which are of excellent quality, measure out at 2 9/16" and work fine in my old gun.

Are you reloading shells for the '97?

Ben_hutcherson · Dec 21, 2014

Cooter Brown said:
In 1927 chambers were standardized at 2 3/4". You'll want to check this. Before that standardization they were chambered at 2 9/16".

Even Model 12s chambered in 2 3/4" sometimes have a bit of a problem with ejection of some brands of modern shells--they can hang up on the lower front corner of the ejection port. Some brands work better than others.

You have a Model 97 so you likely know how to find short shells. RST among others make them. B&P shells, which are of excellent quality, measure out at 2 9/16" and work fine in my old gun.

Are you reloading shells for the '97?

Yes, I do currently reload for the '97, although my c.1910 example has had the chamber lengthened and does fine with 2 3/4" shells. That's all I've been reloading for it.

With that said, I keep my eyes open for old 16 gauge shells, and frequently buy the occasional loose package of them inexpensively. I think my most recent one was about 100 shells in a ziplock bag for $15. Most of the old paper ones are 2 9/16, so I have those at least to check for function.

lhump1961 · Dec 21, 2014

You're gonna love it! I have 1 each 20,16 and 12. The 12 is very early around 1920 and both the 16 and 20 are from the mid 50's.

lwr_ · Dec 23, 2014

16ga Model 12s

Have a safe full of Model 12s. My favorites are my 16s. They point and shoot the best of all the Model 12 gauges. The ammo is readily available at Dick's and Cabelas. Cabelas has a sale on Herters 16ga $54.99 per flat. Stock up now.

Ben_hutcherson · Dec 23, 2014

lwr_ said:
Have a safe full of Model 12s. My favorites are my 16s. They point and shoot the best of all the Model 12 gauges. The ammo is readily available at Dick's and Cabelas. Cabelas has a sale on Herters 16ga $54.99 per flat. Stock up now.

As Cabelas is where I have the gun on lay-a-way, I may have to pick up some when I go back in to pick up the gun(or on my next weekly trip to Cabelas

)

I actually haven't been buying that much 16 gauge as I've been reloading for it. Considering that around here shot is running $50+ per 25 lbs, or about 355 rounds at 1 1/8 oz., Remington wads(the only ones I can find) run $13/250, primers $4/100, and a $25 lb of powder will load around 300 shells, I don't think I can reload them that inexpensively.

ABNRGR · Dec 23, 2014

16 ga Model 12

I hunt pheasants over springer spaniels. In my judgment, the 16 gauge is without peer for upland game. My primary gun is a Parker Bros. 16ga, 26" barrels, IC/M, on an 0 frame, which weighs 5 1/4 lbs. It does all the work, I just carry it to and from the field. On rainy or snowy days, I carry a Winchester Model 12, 16 ga, 26" barrel, modified choke, made in 1957, and the pheasants come home just as dead. A little heavier, not as well balanced, not as intuitive, but a marvelous shotgun. I'm sure you will quickly come to love the Model 12 and the 16 gauge. Congratulations and best of luck.

gmiller0737 · Dec 23, 2014

It's hard to beat the Quality of a Legendary Model 12! I have a few in My Safe A early 20ga from 1913,A Heavy Duck 12ga Marked "For Super X & Super Speed 3",It's Little Brother a Model 42 in .410 + A Brownin Reproduction Model 12 in .28ga

Cooter Brown · Dec 24, 2014

Ballistic Products has all the reloading stuff you'll need, including wads.

The Herter's shells Cabela's sells are made in Italy by Cheddite. The Winchester Super X shells (the one ounce ones made in Australia) use Cheddite components. I've been reloading them for years. The hulls don't last as long as the old compression formed AA hulls, but they haven't made those for a few years--and haven't in 16 ga. for longer than that.

BP has Gaulandi wads, which are in the WW Super X shells and probably the Herter's/Cheddite.

The Herter's shells are nice moderate velocity shells, but will likely be 2 3/4. I haven't used them so don't know for sure. I do know they are purple, the proper color for a 16 ga. hull! The WW Super X shells with the Cheddite hulls measure 2 3/4"

If you google "16 gauge low pressure group" you'll find a group of folks who reload for the gauge. For a nominal fee you can join and get hundreds of good reloading recipes.

But like you said if you can get them on sale it's hard to reload them and save money.

Ben_hutcherson · Dec 24, 2014

Cooter Brown said:
Ballistic Products has all the reloading stuff you'll need, including wads.

The Herter's shells Cabela's sells are made in Italy by Cheddite. The Winchester Super X shells (the one ounce ones made in Australia) use Cheddite components. I've been reloading them for years. The hulls don't last as long as the old compression formed AA hulls, but they haven't made those for a few years--and haven't in 16 ga. for longer than that.

BP has Gaulandi wads, which are in the WW Super X shells and probably the Herter's/Cheddite.

The Herter's shells are nice moderate velocity shells, but will likely be 2 3/4. I haven't used them so don't know for sure. I do know they are purple, the proper color for a 16 ga. hull! The WW Super X shells with the Cheddite hulls measure 2 3/4"

If you google "16 gauge low pressure group" you'll find a group of folks who reload for the gauge. For a nominal fee you can join and get hundreds of good reloading recipes.

But like you said if you can get them on sale it's hard to reload them and save money.

Thanks for all the info.

When I bought my '97(which, incidentally, has had the chamber lengthened so I can shoot 2 3/4" shells without trouble) I went to every store in town and bought a box of every brand 16 gauge shells I could find.

One of the real issues I've run into with commercial loadings is that almost all are "high brass" game loads with 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. of shot at 1200fps or so. I hate stressing the gun(and my shoulder) that much for shooting at the range. Most of the published load data is the same way.

I've avoided ordering components as I really don't reload all that much, and the only wads I can find locally are the Remington 1 1/8 oz. Power Piston wads...I probably should put in a big order for some components.

Cooter Brown · Dec 24, 2014

The Herter's shells are listed at 1165 fps.

1200 is not too bad. 1300 is reasonable but getting to the point where recoil is a bit stout.

A Model 12 is a fairly tough gun, but I certainly understand what you're saying.

The low pressure group has a lot of low and moderate velocity recipes.

Best of luck and be sure to post pictures when you get the gun!

model70hunter · Dec 27, 2014

I've owned several over the years. There was a time about 10-15 years ago where $150.00 would get you a nice M-12 in 16 gauge I think mostly due to it was hard to find ammo.

I like the balance and lighter weight of the 16 over the 12.

Ben_hutcherson · Feb 5, 2015

I'm happy to report that the gun is now(finally) in my hands.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet had a chance to shoot it, but after "fondling" it some I can see why these earned the reputation they have.

I probably should go through and do a full field strip on it. I'm assuming the buttstock comes off as on a Model 97(one screw through the end) but don't see any obvious way to remove the Pachmyar recoil pad that's currently on the gun...

loknload · Feb 5, 2015

I love the old model 12's and I just happen to have one in 16 as well. Picked it up several years ago in a local gun shop. The dealer got it through an estate sale. It was like a lost puppy to me so I had to bring it home since no one wanted it!
I do love my Winchesters!

Big Cholla · Feb 5, 2015

You will be very happy with the field qualities of the M 12 in 16 ga. My Dad purchased a M 12 in 20 ga. for me the week I was born. By the time I was 14 and was starting to hunt ducks with him it was obvious that the 20 ga wasn't doing real well. He bought me a M 12 in 16 ga. with full choke in a 30" bbl. to match his M 12 in 16 ga. I started getting my share of ducks! I foolishly let the 16 ga. go when I purchased a Browning O/U Lightning while in college. I wish I had kept the M 12 / 16 ga. I handloaded for our two 16 ga.s for 6 years. It was very easy to load for and was much cheaper to put the handloads together than it was to purchase factory loads. ..... Big Cholla

BTW; I still own and shoot the Winchester M 12 in 20 ga. that is as old as I am (older than dirt)

............... BC

James&theGiant1911 · Feb 5, 2015

I have my grand father's '58 Model 12 in 16 gauge. They kick like no other but are good firearms. They were once called the perfect repeater and after shooting one a while you can find out why. They also were trench guns and hold up to 7 shells.

nice find.

Winchester 12 in 16 Gauge on the Way

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