Commercial 9mm ballistics comparison?

scoobysnacker · Jun 17, 2015

Does anyone have a fairly comprehensive source on this? Given the ammo shortages and the internet, a whole lot of us have acquired a lot of different brands, such as Sellier and Bellot, PPU, Fiocchi etc. (I name these in particular, since they happen to be what I have a good bit of).

Doing a little internet search, there's some suggestion that these European rounds are hotter than, say, WWB or Blazer.

I've found a couple sites on ballistics, but they're incomplete (one says S&B "coming soon" and PPU isn't listed; but it DOES have Fiocchi significantly higher than WWB and Blazer).

CTG_COLLECTOR · Jun 17, 2015

This may be what you're looking for:

9mm Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

scoobysnacker · Jun 18, 2015

CTG_COLLECTOR said:
This may be what you're looking for:

9mm Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

Yeah, that's the one I referred to. Nothing listed for PPU (Prvi Partisan) at all, and Sellier & Bellot is "coming soon".

Interesting numbers from what is listed:
Fiocchi 115 grain FMJ 405 ft-lb muzzle energy, 1260 ft/sec.
vs
Remington 115 JHP +P 399 ft/lb, 1250 ft/sec
Remington UMC 115 MC 329 ft/lb, 1135 ft/sec
Magtech 115 JHP +P 397 ft/lb, 1246 ft/sec
Magtech 115 FMJ 330 ft/lb, 1135 ft/sec
PMC 115 FMJ 334, 1150
WWB 115 FMJ 362, 1190

Federal is about the same with WWB, Blazer is the same as PMC.

Went to the manufacturer's sites to find:
Sellier and Bellot 115 gr FMJ 391 ft/lb, 1237 ft/sec
PPU 115 gr FMJ 356 ft/lb, 1181 ft/sec

So, based on that- Fiocchi and Sellier & Bellot are loaded hotter than domestic rounds, by a good bit. Fiocchi is hotter than some +P loads.
PPU is loaded equal to Winchester and Federal standard loads.

If this is accurate, it's good to know. Online sites beat my local shops on prices and availability, so I've gotten a lot of S&B and Fiocchi ammo over the past couple years. And, like others, I own some older pistols, and don't necessarily want to run a lot of +P loads through them.

alwslate · Jun 18, 2015

I have found that the best source for 9 mm ballistics is a chronograph.
I have quite a variety of 9mm ammo, mostly FMJ, domestic and
imported. The numbers from the charts from the link are from the
manufacturers I suppose but in some cases bear no resemblence to
the actual velocities you will see out of your guns. There seems to be a recent trend from some companies to water down 9 mm velocities.
Some imported 115 gr FMJ runs about 1050-1070 fps despite stated
velocities of 1135-1250 fps and won't even cycle the action of my
Browning HP. Magtech, Remington UMC, South African PMP and Aguila
are some of these. S&B and PMC only run about 1105 fps despite
their listed velocities. CCI Blazer and Lawman actually exceed their
listed velocities out of my guns. I've learned the hard way not to
believe the listed velocities. I buy a box or two, chronograph a few
and then decide if I want more.

Arik · Jun 18, 2015

Ammo shortage? Between the Internet and my several local lgs I can find just about anything.

I don't bother with balistics on range ammo. It's for practice and it's all going to put holes in paper

scoobysnacker · Jun 18, 2015

Arik said:
Ammo shortage? Between the Internet and my several local lgs I can find just about anything.

I don't bother with balistics on range ammo. It's for practice and it's all going to put holes in paper

That's fine, and yes, I've found that most everything works nice. I've settled into picking up Herters from Cabela's whenever it's 10.99 or less, since it's repackaged S&B and my pistols like it. PPU also performs well. Since I may invest in some reloading stuff, and the brass for both is spoken well of, I figure it's a win-win.

My question centers on how hot some may be. Among others, I have a Star Super B that's dead accurate, and I've read that you shouldn't feed it a steady diet of +P. I have some other pistols like that, and upon reading that some of the Euro rounds are pretty hot, it made me curious. I don't want to beat it to death with a plinking round.

I have found that the best source for 9 mm ballistics is a chronograph.

This sounds interesting to look into, don't know what all is involved. What would I need, is it cheap, range-friendly, etc? Are there any chrono brands to avoid?
I'm guessing that (in theory), the same round would be faster out of the 5 inch barrel of the Star, vs the 4 inch barrel of my 915, due to barrel length? And vary among other guns, in most part due to barrels... so the CZ 75 should be about the same as the Beretta 92?

BAM-BAM · Jun 18, 2015

Check out "Ballistics by the Inch"....... some fun stuff.

alwslate · Jun 19, 2015

The best cheap chronograph for the money by far is the Competition
Electronics Pro Digital for $99. Some people like the cheap Chrony
brand chronos but many, including me, have found them worthless for
use with handgun rounds. Disparity between listed and actual velocity
is common with about all ammo but seems to be much worse with
foreign ammo than with domestic brands. For practice ammo there's
nothing wrong with buying at the lowest practical price but it's no fun
shooting ammo that is so weak that your gun jams every 2-3 shots.
Yeah some older all steel autos are not really suited for hot ammo
and some import ammo is hot but most isn't. You absolutely cannot
go by the factory ballistic charts and a $99 chrono will be cheap
insurance against wasting money on ammo you won't be happy with.
In general velocity will increase with barrel length but there are
differences between guns due to chambers and barrel dimensions.
Glocks really do give more velocity because of rifling type and some
guns are just faster than others with the same barrel length. A
chronograph will provide many surprises over time and you will never
want to be without one again after owning one.

scoobysnacker · Jun 19, 2015

The best cheap chronograph for the money by far is the Competition
Electronics Pro Digital for $99. Some people like the cheap Chrony
brand chronos but many, including me, have found them worthless for
use with handgun rounds.

This is definitely good info to have. The vast majority of shooting done by me and my family is handguns at an indoor range.

For practice ammo there's
nothing wrong with buying at the lowest practical price but it's no fun
shooting ammo that is so weak that your gun jams every 2-3 shots.
Yeah some older all steel autos are not really suited for hot ammo
and some import ammo is hot but most isn't.

I haven't ran into anything too weak to cycle, unless it's 22lr; and I have a revolver for that. Still, that's also a relevant issue, because I also have a High Standard that shouldn't be running hi-velocity rounds.

In general velocity will increase with barrel length but there are
differences between guns due to chambers and barrel dimensions.
Glocks really do give more velocity because of rifling type and some
guns are just faster than others with the same barrel length

That reminds me, I'll have to check the various Makarov caliber pistols I have. The CZ 82 has a polygonal barrel like the Glocks, I'm interested in how it compares to some more traditional rifling.

Thanks!

Harkrader · Oct 31, 2015

Having "cut my teeth" on European 9mm ammo starting in the '70s, I have long been sorely disappointed in the US fare. I'm happy to see the better (hotter) stuff readily available. I'm sure it's better than what we had back then.

I got my first Beretta 92 (not "FS" or even "F") as a gift and all it had ever fired was ammo that by today's standard would be classified as +P or some even +P+.

In '82 I had a S, then a SB Compact, a couple F's and then the FS. All were loaded almost exclusively with European and Israeli ammo that would have been rated +P, and then US ammo of that strength.

The only thing I remember being told was that this battered the frame more than "weak" ammo, potentially shortening its life. However, I don't remember any ever being retired for that. I still have the early 92 model. I don't know how many rounds have been through it. I put about 1,000 a year through it for about 8 years before I was issued the upgraded models and I don't think anyone would say it is heavily worn.

My (only slightly educated) thought is that unless you plan to shoot many thousands of +P or +P+ rounds through them, don't worry about it.

One gun warning I remember was about the Browning HiPower. I was told they were not particularly sturdy and would shoot loose with a large diet of even "weak" ammo. I have nothing to back that up and would like to hear from anyone with actual knowledge.

OKFC05 · Oct 31, 2015

One gun warning I remember was about the Browning HiPower. I was told they were not particularly sturdy and would shoot loose with a large diet of even "weak" ammo. I have nothing to back that up and would like to hear from anyone with actual knowledge.

Well, they've been made by half the world since 1935, so there may be some poor ones out there.
Speaking only for the ones sold by Browning since WWII, load them up and blast away. I even have a .40 HiPo that has been through many tens of thousands of rounds in USPSA Limited 10, and shows no looseness.

Harkrader · Oct 31, 2015

OKFCO5:
That certainly makes sense. Thx.

Nevada Ed · Oct 31, 2015

I have seen a lot of company vel. charts and listings......

it depends on what length barrel was used and with the Euro brands, I would suspect a 5.5" barrel in their tests with the higher fps.

Many companies fudge a little to make things look better and maybe help out sales. I have tested factory ammo and lots of it is way below the stated fps.

I just tested some HST +P in my 3.5" 9mm and what printed out was below the 3" barrel data. I will test it one more time to be sure of the results since it was to be my SD ammo.

Most ammo is within 10% of the listed velocity, so there is not that big of a problem. One reason to test your ammo, to see if it fits your needs.

Frank46 · Nov 1, 2015

I seem to remember that european ammunition standards are governed by a different CIP? than U.S. Sammi standards than we have here. Take for instance 8mm mauser ammo. Due to liability concerns this caliber is usually loaded with a 170 grain bullet at about 2300fps. One reason for this is the weaker 1888 commission rifles that are still out there having been made before the turn of the last century. Yet european ammo in this caliber is loaded with a 198 grain bullet at about 2500fps. Norma used to load a 150 grain bullet in the 7.65x53mm argentine caliber at 2950fps. No distinction made between the 1891 and the 1909 mausers. I shot a lot of the old norma ammo loaded this way for years. Now they have downloaded that caliber. Frank

Steve C · Nov 1, 2015

9mm factory ammo (some commercial, some surplus) I've ran over my chronograph has average velocities as follows:

Wolf Ammo 115gr FMJ - Glock 19 - 1,219 fps
S&B 115 gr FMJ - Glock 19 - 1,142 fps
Hirtenberger 100 JSP - Glock 19 - 1,306 fps (advertised at 1,400+ fps)
Fiochi 115 gr JHP (Italian mfg.) - Glock 19 - 1,288 fps
Russian/Olyokminsk steel case 115gr FMJ - Taurus PT92 - 1,255 fps
Win. +P+ 127gr JHP SXT (LEO) - Glock 19 - 1,273 fps
Hot Shot 124gr FMJ - Walther P1 - 1,054 fps
Silver Bear 145gr JHP - Glock 19 - 1,054 fps (not a duplicate mistake)
Winchester USA 147gr JHP - Walther P1 - 949 fps

Some of the EU stuff was pretty warm and some was not. No way to generalize.

keithherrington · Nov 1, 2015

Please don't concentrate on just velocity

Yes, it is the easiest factor to use when comparing one to the other, but how accurate it is in your particular gun is also important, as is bullet construction and terminal performance. Selecting the best ammo is a bit more complex than this thread would tend to indicate.

Keith

Commercial 9mm ballistics comparison?

scoobysnacker

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