Four Inch Barreled Pre-27's - Photo and Info Thread

RKmesa · Mar 6, 2016

I know that in the 1950's the "Pre-27" 357's were not cataloged with a 4" barrel (the 4" barrel was generally saved for the Highway Patrolman and the Combat Magnum)... BUT there were some Pre-27s that were special ordered with a 4" tube (I guess that extra 1/2" made a big difference

). I'd love to see how many 4" pre-27s we can account for here on this forum - please post your photos (along with any info you may have) of/on this less common barrel length.

Here is a 4"er from my collection (BTW - it shipped in a box for a 3.5" gun - with a black grease pencil "4" written over the "3 1/2" on the box end).

Early Factory Letter (edited to remove name/address details):

[UPDATED April 4, 2024] Bringing the summary to the top of this thread - Information so far:

Seventeen post war 4" pre-27's posted in this thread (4 invoice only), of which eight shipped to H.H. Harris on April 22, 1957:

SN S103689 Shipped February, 1954
SN S164615 Shipped November 9, 1956, H.H. Harris part of 8 unit shipment
SN S164375 Shipped November 9, 1956, H.H. Harris part of 8 unit shipment
SN S164145 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris
SN S164755 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 24
SN S164959 Shipped February 1957 (originally shipped as a blue gun - currently nickel plated)
SN S164945 Shipped ___________, ______________
SN S164155 Shipped April 5, 1957, H.H. Harris, 19 units in this shipment
SN S164753 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S164758 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S164775 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S164969 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S167844 Shipped ___________, ______________
SN S167847 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S168244 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S168849 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S168853 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment

Thanks for letting me share,

19leben · Mar 6, 2016

Ahhhh, that's a really nice "357" Magnum. I think the older bluing is just magnificent, and yours is especially beautiful. Thanks so much for sharing this beauty.

Texas Star · Mar 6, 2016

I think it should have been a std. barrel length. Elmer Keith thought that a four-inch barrel should be minimum in a .357, saying that he thought the 3.5-inch bbl. deformed bullet bases with lead bullets.

I doubt that, although the bullet alloy might make a difference. A gas-check bullet would in any case be preferred.

I've never liked the 3.5-inch barrel. My M-27 and pre-M-27 both had six and 6.5-inch barrels, and I had a Five-incher. In that frame size, I like the six-inch barrel best.

Chas. Askins had a .357 with four-inch bbl. and a humpback hammer. He showed it in some of his books and articles.

RK, there's a half-inch difference in a 3.5-inch and a four-inch bbl., not a quarter inch. (Yeah, I know the factory sometimes cut a barrel a bit short.) And I think it does matter. The powder used does matter, but I do prefer the four inch as a min. bbl. on the N-frame.

However, some guns with three-inch barrel on smaller frames make sense, like the M-65. The Winchester 145 grain Silvertip cracks 1200 FPS in a three-inch bbl. and has a very solid track record as a defensive round.

Texas Star · Mar 6, 2016

There's an interesting sidelight here. When gun writer Geoffrey Boothroyd advised author Ian Fleming on James Bond's guns, he suggested a Centennial Airweight for an on-person gun, with a M-27 replacing the Colt .45 under the dash of Bond's Bentley. He mentioned the available barrel lengths, and I know from personal correspondence that he wanted that gun to have a six or 6.5-inch bbl.

Fleming got the guns confused and referred to the Centennial as a "brutal, stumpy" revolver. That could apply to the Centennial, but I think Fleming was thinking of the 3.5-inch barreled M-27 when he typed that.

Ultimately, Fleming preferred small autos for concealed use, knowing how vital concealment was, based on his own Intelligence background. So, Bond lost the Centennial on Crab Key in, "Dr. No" and carried a Walther PPK. I don't think the .357 ever came up again.

RKmesa · Mar 7, 2016

Texas Star said:
RK, there's a half-inch difference in a 3.5-inch and a four-inch bbl., not a quarter inch. (Yeah, I know the factory sometimes cut a barrel a bit short.)

Whoops

As a CPA, I know better than to do math in my head... now where is my calculator so that I can correct the initial post...

Jack Flash · Mar 7, 2016

RKmesa said:
... (BTW - it shipped in a box for a 3.5" gun - with a black grease pencil "4" written over the "3 1/2" on the box end). ...

Sounds like someone put out minimal effort that day!

I like those brief factory letters.

Edited to add:
It's interesting that the letter doesn't mention the stocks it shipped with. Do those have the serial number? I imagine it could have been ordered with targets(?) What do the box say?

bracebeemer · Mar 7, 2016

Richard, I don't have a pre 27 4", however I do have a NR 4" 357 Magnum that shipped to Lou Eppinger sporting goods in Detroit ( my birth town ) in 1940. Serial #60203. the grips are Kieth Brown Ropers.
Bill

lowriderfxr · Mar 7, 2016

That thing is , as some say down here in Louisiana, finer than frog fur. I love the 3.5" the best but a 4" pre 27 or early 27 is indeed a rare find and quite a treasure.

Engine49guy · Mar 7, 2016

Richard that is a Very interesting "Pre 27",
IIRC April 1957 is fairly late for 5 screw "Pre" models ,
The person that special ordered that gun IMO had to be fairly persnickety when the 4" Highway Patrolman (introduced in 1954) and 4" Combat Magnum (Introduced in 1955) were (at that point) probably fairly easy to acquire .

RKmesa · Mar 7, 2016

Jack Flash said:
It's interesting that the letter doesn't mention the stocks it shipped with. Do those have the serial number? I imagine it could have been ordered with targets(?) What do the box say?

I just checked, and although the magnas fit like they were made for the gun, they do not number to the gun (close...). So you are correct, it could have shipped with targets - maybe even smooth rosewood targets - now that would be nice.

mojave30cal · Mar 7, 2016

Richard:

I've posted this before on the Forum. Picked it up last year. It
is a very accurate shooter. I think it was a working gun as
evidenced by the holster wear on the muzzle and top part of
the right side of the frame near the barrel pin. It is all original.

I also expressed an interest to find out approximately how
many of these pre-27 variants were produced to find out just
how scarce they are. Apparently the S&W factory didn't keep
records of how many of each model they made. You can add
mine plus the others it shipped with to your total. Good luck!

mojave30cal · Mar 7, 2016

Took it out last week and shot it. I used Black Hills 158 grain
CNL Cowboy loads at 7 yards with a light wind. I was impressed.
I think I will keep it.

quinn · Mar 7, 2016

Another pre-pre 27 in 4". Registered Magnum shipped to FBI Agent Arlin Jones, Pittsburg office, Aug. 8, 1939. This has been posted before.

bmg60 · Mar 7, 2016

Richard
I found a 4 inch 5 screw for a friend of mine he lives in MT. It was a special order gun.
It was owned by a member of the forum. At the time he wanted it more that I did.
So I made arrangement's for him to get it.
I cann't remember how many were on the factory letter I think it was 4.
it shipped in 53 or 54

chud333 · Mar 7, 2016

lowriderfxr said:
That thing is , as some say down here in Louisiana, finer than frog fur. I love the 3.5" the best but a 4" pre 27 or early 27 is indeed a rare find and quite a treasure.

This for me as well !! The 3 1/2" just looks and shoots like
one bad Hombre.
If i had my choice the 4" would be next in line. Darn near
the perfect N-Frame Magnum.
That is an exceptional handgun you have in that 4" beauty
and a rare bird indeed. Love it !!

Chuck

Checkman · Mar 7, 2016

Texas Star

Elmer Keith thought that a four-inch barrel should be minimum in a .357, saying that he thought the 3.5-inch bbl. deformed bullet bases with lead bullets.I doubt that, although the bullet alloy might make a difference. A gas-check bullet would in any case be preferred.

I've wondered about that statement of Elmer's for many years. Ever since I came across it in "Sixguns" some fourteen years ago.

boykinlp · Mar 8, 2016

RKmesa said:
So you are correct, it could have shipped with targets - maybe even smooth rosewood targets - now that would be nice.

Would it fit in the box with target grips? I seem to remember that the older boxes, with the metal support strips, had 5 of the round "doohickeys" sections if they were used for target grips and 4 for magnas.

RKmesa · Mar 8, 2016

boykinlp said:
Would it fit in the box with target grips? I seem to remember that the older boxes, with the metal support strips, had 5 of the round "doohickeys" sections if they were used for target grips and 4 for magnas.

I think that all my 3.5" pre-27 gold boxes have the 5 prong metal corner supports. For illustration, the 3.5" guns with target grips fit...

...and it looks like there is probably room for the extra 1/2"? I'll have to put some target shoes on the 4" and try it sometime.

BUFF · Mar 8, 2016

I have seen photos of boxed revolvers shipped with the target stocks removed, wrapped in brown tissue or packing paper and put in the box corner above the barrel.

RKmesa · Mar 10, 2016

Other than the 4" post war pre-27s posted above, I searched the Forum and found this one:

snw19_357 said:
I know there were some (at least 24) 5-screw "pre-27"s made with 4" barrels too.

Source: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...860-there-very-many-m27-w-4-inch-barrels.html

After trying several different searches, I really could not find many others referenced in the forum...

Maybe there aren't as many as I thought.

Four Inch Barreled Pre-27's - Photo and Info Thread

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