S&W 617 for Bullseye shooting

Bob L said:

Keep in mind that the rapid course of fire is 5 shots in 10 seconds. Your first shot should be able to be fired within 1/2 second from the fire command. This leaves you 9.5 seconds for the remaining 4 shots or not quite 2.4 seconds per shot. It is longer than you think. Most people rush the shots in rapid fire, myself included.

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Funny when I used to compete, I had the rapid fire shots pretty well spaced to fill the 10 seconds. So much so that I used to shoot the timed event in the same cadence. Worked for me.

Wee Hooker said:

Funny when I used to compete, I had the rapid fire shots pretty well spaced to fill the 10 seconds. So much so that I used to shoot the timed event in the same cadence. Worked for me.

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Yep. Cadence -- rhythm -- is the critical ingredient in sustained strings of fire. Good rhythm prevents one from forcing shots or running out of time by trying to pretty them up too much. Timed fire is supposed to let competitors build up their X-count, but many shooters use the time to "milk" their shots and end up shooting 9s or 8s as a result.

I always line up my sights on the edge of the target frame such that when the targets begin to turn I begin my squeeze and break the shot just as the target faces. This not only encourages you not to milk the shot or pretty-up the sight picture but gives you virtually 10 seconds to release the four shots remaining. As Bob L says, that is all the time in the world to execute a smooth, repeatable cadence.

Myself and my best friend were poor country boys in school he had an old savage 16 ga boltaction shotgun and I an old Harrington and Richardson single shot mbut we had hunted birds with those guns and when we weren't hunting we would take turns throwing clay pigeons up fo each other so when we decided o tryout for our schools rifle and shotgun team I guess the guts who's dads had bought them those nice overunder shotguns with pedigree thought it was funny but when johnie outshot the coach with his old bolt gun they stopped snickering .The point is its no tn gun so much as the man holding it .

I think I am going to go ahead and purchase the 617 as I want a 22LR wheel gun in my growing collection of pistols , I will try it out in bullseye after some practice as I like to shoot and as I am competitive , I am not going to over spend just to compete and be like the others .

Winning to me isn't everything , having a GOOD time and having fun with the people your around is more important to me then being the best in class .

Yes I would love to have some of the target pistols you all have spoken about , but every time I have bought anything used I have lost my *** , and me buying a used target gun not knowing what to look for on line I would loose money by buying someone else wore out *** I am afraid . ( thats just how my luck runs ... LOL )

So I want to thank all of you on your suggestions and input again , its been VERY enlightening for sure as there is a wealth of information on this forum !!!

Plus I need to save a bit of Christmas money as I need to Cajunize my CZ 75B for IDPA as I will be trying that out next month at my indoor range

While I haven't shot NRA style comp,I have done so in ISU.And yes,it is quite similar.4 stages of 5 shots in 2 1/2 minutes,4 more in 20 secs and the last 4 in 10 secs at 25 meters(aprox 27 yds).While not an Olympic grade shooter,I had lots of fun and managed to grab a few trophies along the way.
First,whatever you decide to shoot with,buy 6,7 or 8(or more)types of .22 ammo and test them in the gun intended to be used.No need to buy all of them in the expensive bracket;you might be surprised at the results of some of the inexpensive ones(note I didn't say cheap).
Second,the gun(or it should be first since you'll need it to test the ammo).Determine what you want to do.Just having fun,you might go with the revolver.The model 617 is plenty accurate for such(I know,I own a model 17 and it is plenty accurate).But if you like me don't like to finish second(like Mr Jordan said:''there's no second place winner'')having to cock the hammer in the rapid fire stage will change the position of your hand on the grip.Not the best way to launch a projectile accurately when the 10ring is so awfull small.If you'd like to see your name in the upper part of the score results in a short time,I'd say go for the SA.
What I'm saying here hurts because I'm a revolver guy(ratio of what I own is aprox 6:1 revolver:SA).But the SA is the way to go so as to drop less points in the rapid fire stages.
You can use a Victory(don't own one but I hear they are very accurate)or check for a used Pardini,Unique DES69 or the likes.You can find them in the $600 range,are plenty accurate and indestructible.Just take note to shoot target velocity ammo in them and they'll outlast you.The model 41 is an excellent model but will go for more than the $600 I mentionned.
Have fun
Qc

[QUOTE=Qc Pistolero; having to cock the hammer in the rapid fire stage will change the position of your hand on the grip.Not the best way to launch a projectile accurately when the 10ring is so awfull small.

NOT SO if you learn to cock the hammer with your week hand. 5 Shots in 10 seconds is a long time. 5 Shots in 3-5 seconds is not at all uncommon in BP & steel challenge. DA revolvers can be shot darn fast, ask Jerry Miculek.

While people who are serious about bulleye shooting use semi autos you can have a lot of fun and shoot well with your 617 if you practice. You should be able to use CCI SV ammo. I would suggest a trigger job on the gun. For years I used my model 17 for bulleye style shooting and I finally bought a model 41 it took me quite a while for me to beat my best scores of my model 17 with my model 41. I think you can have fun with the 617 and go from there.

My model 17 is fun to shoot, but my 41 is more accurate.

You will never consistently compete in the NRA gallery course with a revolver when everyone else is using a semi auto. That's why you don't see them on the line. It would be like using a 10 pound bowling ball in the bowling league when everyone else is using 16 pounders. You would be much better off starting out with a less expensive semi auto like the Victory or a Ruger. After a while, if it's your cup of tea you can invest in a Pardini or Walther and work your way up the competition chain. If it turns out to be a bore for you, then the Victory or Ruger can be used for shooting soda cans. If your goal is to hang out with the guys and eat donuts and drink coffee, then it really dosen't matter what gun you bring now does it?

Spraywizzard said:

Thanks everyone for your input , I appreciate it .

Looks like I need to maybe readjust my thinking , especially after Wee Hookers post .
Darn, I was hoping I could maybe do fairly decent with this crazy idea of using the 617 as I usually walk to the beat of a different drummer and hate going with what everyone else goes with .

Maybe I will just spend some extra money on the wives S&W 22 Victory and see how I do with it with the next few outings .
I have practiced with it at 15 yards and can get 1.5" groups with the garbage remington bucket ammo . Have not practiced at 25 yards with it

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Here's what I'd do.

Take the Victory, stock, and go shoot a bunch of matches. If you want to buy anything for it, grab a good red dot--a 25mm Ultradot goes for well under $200 and does everything a person could ask--and a total of four magazines. Ammunition, look at something along the price of Aguila SuperExtra or CCI Standard, both of which run about $4/box if purchased in volume.

Decide how much you reasonably want to invest in the sport. And every time somebody offers to let you shoot their pistol, take them up on it. We love showing off our guns.

Don't goof around and start modifying the Victory. For one, you don't have the experience to know what's worth doing to it. And for another, it doesn't matter much you drop into it, it's never going to equal the mid-range (relatively) bullseye guns.

You can't really buy points. What you're buying when you get an expensive BE gun is a slightly less steep learning curve. A great rimfire BE gun isn't massively more accurate, it's simply got a much better trigger and significantly better balance and ergonomics.

If you wanted to spend 617 money, I think these are the good options:

--S&W Model 41. Used, I'd look for about $800-$1000 depending on condition and vintage. They eat easy-to-find ammo, and have pretty good triggers. It's probably the easiest pistol on this list to own. On the downside, the 41 feels like a 1911 with a brick taped to the muzzle. It's quite heavy out front, and there's not a hell of a lot you can do about that. For a beginner, though, I think the 41 is the best you can get, simply because it's so easy to own.

--Benelli MP95E. Super pistol designed for 25-meter ISSF rapid fire, goes for $1000 new. If you want to drop more money in it, you can buy an MP90S two-stage adjustable trigger group. On the downside, it's an exotic pistol with exotic tastes in ammo. That means they usually like European-branded .22LR.

--Pardini SP-22. Same as above, minus the trigger group, and convertible to .32 for centerfire. A bit more expensive than the Benelli, about $1500.

--Walther GSP Target Expert. Another $1500 Euro gun, with Euro chamber, convertible to .32.

--Hammerli 208s. I can't even remember what these go for, but around there, and everybody likes 'em.

--Custom 1911-22 conversion. Larry Nelson makes a hell of a nice .22 conversion for .45 ACP 1911s. Goes about $400. You can buy a used complete 1911-22 conversion from a reputable smith for about $1200, buy a built lower from a no-name shop for about $750, or buy the conversion new ($400) and build a lower yourself ($700-$800). I built my own. Although I thoroughly enjoyed it and the resulting pistol is probably the best gun in my collection, I would recommend looking for a used named-smith pistol, as doing it yourself is difficult and time-consuming. No matter what way you go, I heartily recommend both the Nelson Custom conversion, and KC Crawford's superb drop-in roll trigger kit.

nachogrande said:

NOT SO if you learn to cock the hammer with your week hand. 5 Shots in 10 seconds is a long time. 5 Shots in 3-5 seconds is not at all uncommon in BP & steel challenge. DA revolvers can be shot darn fast, ask Jerry Miculek.

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(1) Your off hand is not allowed to touch the gun. That's sort of the premise of one-handed precision pistol.

(2) The 50-foot (indoor) B-3 Timed/Rapid target has a 10-ring of 1.8 inches. The X-ring is .90 inches. A standard US quarter is .955 inches. Despite not being a particularly great or super-competitive shooter, I've won matches on X-count. This isn't Steel Challenge.

(3) They have a class for revolver shooters. It's called Distinguished Revolver, and S&W's rule the roost due to equipment regulations and Ruger not knowing how to make a gun with decent sights.

Spraywizzard said:

I think I am going to go ahead and purchase the 617 as I want a 22LR wheel gun in my growing collection of pistols

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I've shot goofball matches with all sorts of guns. .44 Magnum? Check. Glock? Check.

Get the 617 because what you really want is a 617 and you're just trying to rationalize an excuse for it. That's not a criticism--I do the same thing all the time. I have all sorts of guns I've got no practical use for, just 'cuz I like 'em. You think I need the .44 for bear defense? Hell no, I like it cuz I squeeze the trigger and it makes me smile and gets me elbow room at the range.

Shoot bullseye with the Victory. It'll be easier, and you'll have a better time. Just loading the 617, depending on how quickly the match is run, will hold up the line (sort of a violation of etiquette).

To the OP: I'm assuming that in your competition, they only let you load 5 at a time, correct? With the close together chambers of a 10 shot revolver, it's easy when loading 5 to close the cylinder and not have the first round where you think it is. Then on the first trigger pull or the last, all you hear is a click. One of the better shooters in my league decided to try it with a 617. He gave up on it after a few nights after hearing several of those clicks.

shakyshoot said:

To the OP: I'm assuming that in your competition, they only let you load 5 at a time, correct? With the close together chambers of a 10 shot revolver, it's easy when loading 5 to close the cylinder and not have the first round where you think it is. Then on the first trigger pull or the last, all you hear is a click. One of the better shooters in my league decided to try it with a 617. He gave up on it after a few nights after hearing several of those clicks.

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This small bore league I shoot at is not sanctioned , they let some of us use 2 hands if they want , I did shoot 1 handed ( with Victory ) but some of the younger kids and 2 ladies shot 2 handed . Its for FUN , they are not competitive sanctioned events .

Yes I can use my Wives Victory and most likely do well with it , as I have a red dot on it already , and I have everything on it from Tandemkross except the trigger . I practice with it at 15 yards and can cover most of my shots up with a 50 cent piece using **** 22lr ammo .
I will buy the 617 and give it a awhirl and see how I do , as I want a plinking revolver and thought I'd ask and get opinions , I want to thank everyone for their input as I doubt I will get that much money wrapped into just one shooting style as I will also be shooting IDPA there too .
My indoor range is trying to figure out how to add rimfire challenge but their Insurance wont allow steel plates being shot at , so they are trying to get ideas form many people , NOW THAT I will use my 617 in !!

Wise_A said:

You can't really buy points. What you're buying when you get an expensive BE gun is a slightly less steep learning curve. A great rimfire BE gun isn't massively more accurate, it's simply got a much better trigger and significantly better balance and ergonomics.

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Great post. This pretty much sums it up. I will add that what you are buying with the more expensive bullseye guns is consistency. The grip is the same every time you pick it up. The trigger pull is the same from the first shot to the ten thousandth shot. The gun performs the same every time you aim it. The good target gun removes as many variables as it can so that it is the shooter and not the gun that is being tested. Bullseye is a great discipline but is not for everyone. I can tell you though, if you can master bullseye, you can shoot anything.

Thanks. I agree--I overlooked trigger consistency when writing that. Which is kind've funny, I consider it practically the be-all and end-all of trigger quality.

Grip? Eh. I don't own any of the ISSF-style Euroguns, and the closest I ever got to shooting one was a single-shot Olympic rimfire. So my experience is basically slab-sided American guns, and I haven't noticed much of a difference between Rugers/Victories/Buckmarks, and things like the 41 and 1911-22s. And I am a firm believer in skateboard grip tape--having a bunch of very aggressive Black Magic tape from when I was young. Stippling or 30LPI checkering looks real nice, but griptape works just as well.

Mostly, great guns are just a lot of fun to use. Especially when it comes to "intangibles" like how the action feels. There's a big difference between a Ruger and a 41, and between a 41 and a hand-polished 1911. That's why guys splash out on them.

I'd love to try out some Vitarbos or Fungs, but I know it's not going to make me any better than I am.

About 20 years ago, I transitioned from a "slab sided" 41 to a Hammerli SP20 with a euro style grip. It was a hard transition but I shot that gun better than anything else once I got used to it. The euro style is much more natural pointing than the 1911 grip angle. I can tell you that I did put Randall Fung grips on my 41 and loved them. He does a great job!

UMMM DONUTS

If your goal is to hang out with the guys and eat donuts and drink coffee, then it really dosen't matter. [/QUOTE]

ALL those LEOS can't be wrong about donuts.
OR, just have fun, NOT take yourself too seriously & enjoy using what you like to shoot. I'll say again, there are other games the 617 would be better suited for.