M&P and the MHS Army trial

The request solicitation was written EXACTLY for the Sig. Must meet this, must be that, which coincidentally, was exactly what the Sig 320 already was. It was rigged from the get go.

Sorry, but the requirements for a major acquisition like MHS take years to write, and industry is continually consulted along the way before they’re finalized. Manufacturers are always at different states of technology maturity in their product lines, that doesn’t mean the system was “rigged.” If the other entrants had been serious about winning (ready to dump a lot of $ into it) they could have had submissions that met all the major tech criteria. They didn’t. You know if you submit a non-modular handgun to the “Modular Handgun System” competition, you’ve pretty much sealed your fate.
 
Many guns companies remain closed mouthed about why their guns may not win a contract. Not uncommon for people involved in the testing to be required to sign NDA's.

From what little I've heard, the M&P's weren't picked to proceed to the actual test-fire stage of the MHS testing.

FWIW, the original M&P's passed the testing and were accepted for issue by LASD, LAPD and the CHP out here on the West Coast in the last several years. (I was told that only academy cadets were initially getting the M&P 9's at LAPD, as they have a lot of existing guns in the field, as well as a list of authorized guns that may be personally owned.)

THIS MAKES A GREAT DEAL OF SENSE TO ME. IMHO--NDA OR NOT--IT WOULD BE FOOLHARDY FOR A MANUFACTURER TO SHARE THE REASONS WHY THEIR ENTRY WAS REJECTED......

IN LIGHT OF THIS, I AM NOT SURPRISED THAT LITTLE HARD EVIDENCE EXISTS.....
 
THIS MAKES A GREAT DEAL OF SENSE TO ME. IMHO--NDA OR NOT--IT WOULD BE FOOLHARDY FOR A MANUFACTURER TO SHARE THE REASONS WHY THEIR ENTRY WAS REJECTED......

IN LIGHT OF THIS, I AM NOT SURPRISED THAT LITTLE HARD EVIDENCE EXISTS.....

It's not so much that "hard evidence" is or isn't involved, but that industry giants often have a proprietary or commercial interest in not spewing the results of things all over the public domain.

Sometimes it's entirely anticlimactic, too. I remember being told by one company that they discovered one of their submissions was disqualified for an out-of-spec chamber-spec, only to later have it determined that a test person had mistakenly used the wrong chamber gauge. By the time it was realized, the testing had proceeded so far that it would've been a major issue to appeal it, so the company let it go. in the interest of not making unnecessary waves. I was told that they felt their opportunity would come back around for the next testing, so why make waves and potential bad feelings?

Sometimes the info might be reported and filed in a way that makes it available to public scrutiny, though, as was the case when the P250 didn't meet a state gov test (I think it was), and the results of some of the testing (including explanations) was made available online.

Today's loser is tomorrow's winner, and vice versa. Etc, Etc.

Only the brand/flag waving loyalists and fans tend to make a big deal out of some particular test, anyway. For the rest of us it's just another episode in the ever-ongoing series of proposals, bids and multiple tests that may reveal the good, as well as the occasional warts and hiccups. No biggie.
 
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The MHS trials were a sham and not even completed by protocol. Personally, I think DoD would've been better off going with Glock, but the Sig contract was $69 million cheaper. But, you get what you pay for...and it wasn't long before 101st Airborne released reports of their Sigs ****ting the bed.

YouTube
 
Here's an article on the subject:
The 8 Pistols That Battled to Win the Army's XM17 MHS Competition

It appears that S&W did retract their entry, since it did not meet the requirement of modularity and therefore stood no chance of success.

How was the Glock entry any less modular? How was the SIG's any more modular? The idea of the modularity was to make a gun that could fit a number of hand sizes. In my opinion, both the Glock and S&W M&P pistols do that better than the SIG P320/XM17 & 18 because the user simply changes the backstrap and doesn't have to get a whole new frame. Thinking about army logistics, you can keep the frame options with the M&P and Glock, but how is that supposed to work with a bunch of different frames to store? I believe the reason the Army went with the SIG was purely political because the track record that has been established clearly favors both the Glock and M&P in my opinion (by a long mile).

The SIG didn't even pass its MRBS test (mean rounds between stoppage). As the Department of Defense released earlier this year, "During PVT [Production Verification Test], the XM17 with ball ammunition met its requirement for MRBF but not its requirement for MRBS. The XM18 with ball ammunition did not meet its MRBF or MRBS requirement."

IMHO, Smith & Wesson probably withdrew because they knew the game had been rigged so that no matter what, SIG was getting the contract.
 
...IMHO, Smith & Wesson probably withdrew because they knew the game had been rigged so that no matter what, SIG was getting the contract.

Sounds logical. I am not defending the M&P9. Based on what I know, I probably wouldn’t have chosen it if I were making the selection. I continue to be underwhelmed by the accuracy of the M&P9s I get to shoot. I have no idea what they will do in a machine rest but I don’t have much luck with them. I shoot my M17 Bravo much better than any factory-stock M&P9 I have ever picked up.
 
The MHS trials were a sham and not even completed by protocol. Personally, I think DoD would've been better off going with Glock, but the Sig contract was $69 million cheaper. But, you get what you pay for...and it wasn't long before 101st Airborne released reports of their Sigs ****ting the bed.

YouTube


Sig was 110 Million $ cheaper! Not 69 Million!
 
IMHO, Smith & Wesson probably withdrew because they knew the game had been rigged so that no matter what, SIG was getting the contract.
I have had a small business for 20 years, and after experiencing how idiotic their decision process is, I won't even try for government contracts any more. Many times it has nothing to do with which company makes a better product or is more qualified.
 
I have had a small business for 20 years, and after experiencing how idiotic their decision process is, I won't even try for government contracts any more. Many times it has nothing to do with which company makes a better product or is more qualified.

It’s been awhile since I was involved in govt contracts, so it may have changed. My experience had been it wasn’t just “many times,” it was pretty much every time that the selection of a vendor for a government contract didn’t have anything to do with product quality or vendor qualification.

It’s a bureaucracy. How you check the boxes and play the game matters more than quality and capability.
 
Sounds logical. I am not defending the M&P9. Based on what I know, I probably wouldn’t have chosen it if I were making the selection. I continue to be underwhelmed by the accuracy of the M&P9s I get to shoot. I have no idea what they will do in a machine rest but I don’t have much luck with them. I shoot my M17 Bravo much better than any factory-stock M&P9 I have ever picked up.
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While the problems with accuracy in the first models of the M&P 9 are well documented, and I have seen a few different explanations (I think the best one is on "pistol-forums", but it is over my head and quite a while since I looked for that), I am not aware of any such problems with the 2.0 models.
 
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The biggest gripe I have with the M17 is that it couldn't pass the Army's goal of 2000 MRBS. The DOD memo from early this year confirmed that and other problems, yet the SIG fanboys keep touting it won. Somehow I think a Glock, and maybe even an M&P, could shoot 2,000 rounds without a hitch. The P320/M17/M18, however, does not seem uber reliable; and the contract, which I read verbatim as someone who used to review and revise government contracts, was specifically designed so that cost was the last thing to be considered and not chosen above reliability.

I carry a SIG (in addition to an M&P and a Glock), but the M17 should not have won, and the Army violated its contract by adopting it before giving Glock a chance at the PVT (production verification test). That isn't an opinion. If the rules of grammar and spelling still exist, it is a fact.
 

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While the problems with accuracy in the first models of the M&P 9 are well documented, and I have seen a few different explanations (I think the best one is on "pistol-forums", but it is over my head and quite a while since I looked for that), I am not aware of any such problems with the 2.0 models.

Doug, I fully understand results with one gun prove nothing. That said, I just had the chance to try one of the Compact 2.0 models and while the gun felt very good to me, and it’s trigger was much better than what I have seen in previous M&P9s, this particular gun still exhibited the tendency to consistently throw one round out of a five-round group, using both types of 9mm ammo I had available at the moment. (One was 115 grain and the other 124 grain. Both were good quality FMJs, one of them US production, the other Swiss.) I really would have liked to see this gun shoot with my M17, which is relatively new to me, but unfortunately it did not. That 2.0 Compact was a great looking and feeling gun - by far the best of the plastic 9s, IMO. I’ll keep watching and shooting the 2.0s when I get the chance. Right now, the accuracy bug still seems to be a problem, based on what little I’ve heard and seen.

I realize this leans in the direction of thread drift and I hope my comments weren’t too distracting.
 
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All along, I had assumed the M2.0 M&P would have a removable chassis like the P320. That seems like a better plan.

And S&W could have gotten it right by making it so that the different grip modules still had the replaceable backstraps and so that recoil springs did not show through from the bottom because the dust cover wasn't the right length.

And then the M2.0 arrived. Yawn.

I wouldn't have picked it either.
 
Government solicitations are sometimes written in such a way that only a specific item, basically already in existence, will meet the criteria. Other bidders are often excluded by tight specifications favoring the manufacturer of the one item already chosen.

Yup. It is not uncommon for a government agency to have already made up their minds about an item/supplier (politics and or money are nearly always involved) before bids are even requested. So as CB3 stated a list of parameters are carefully written that it is essentially a description of the one product that they have already preselected. It can be pretty blatant at times.
 
I think the bid request called for modular design. Not what the M&P has to offer.

I think the Sig is a fine choice.
 
Government solicitations are sometimes written in such a way that only a specific item, basically already in existence, will meet the criteria. Other bidders are often excluded by tight specifications favoring the manufacturer of the one item already chosen.

Yup. It is not uncommon for a government agency to have already made up their minds about an item/supplier (politics and or money are nearly always involved) before bids are even requested. So as CB3 stated a list of parameters are carefully written that it is essentially a description of the one product that they have already preselected. It can be pretty blatant at times.
 

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