Let's talk flaming bomb stamp on butt

Well if you are a Victory collector you know what I mean.

I have been slowly taking pics of my collection and in an effort to make more sense of it on the computer......organizing it to some degree.


While looking at my 4" .38special Victory examples I noticed the following....


s/n 9850xx (pre-Victory) Has Victory features but no topstrap markings. No WB or flaming ordnance bombs on butt either. Has red letter PROPERTY OF U.S. NAVY engraving on left side.

s/n V225xx U.S. NAVY marked topstrap. No WB, GHD, or flaming ordnance bomb anywhere on gun.

s/n V793xx U.S. NAVY marked topstrap. No WB, GHD, or flaming ordnance bomb anywhere on gun.

s/n V1626xx U.S. NAVY marked topstrap. No WB, GHD, or flaming ordnance bomb anywhere on gun.

s/n V2196xx U.S. NAVY marked topstrap. No WB or GHD anywhere on gun. Has flaming ordnance bomb on butt, forward of lanyard ring.

s/n V2742xx U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D. marked topstrap with flaming ordnance bomb on topstrap. Also has flaming ordnance bomb stamp on butt, forward of lanyard ring. (2 ordnance bomb stamps on this gun......topstrap and butt)

s/n V3484xx U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D marked topstrap with flaming ordnance bomb. No flaming ordnance bomb on butt and the V is on the forward side of the lanyard ring.


Now, obviously the early pre-Victory and Victory U.S. NAVY contract examples are rather straightforward. No WB, no GHD, and no flaming ordnance bombs on the first 4 examples listed.

Now the 5th example listed, s/n V2196xx has me asking if it has the U.S. NAVY marking on the topstrap then why the flaming ordnance bomb on the butt as well? (Transitioning over to the U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D. examples obviously, but none of the other U.S. NAVY contract examples has it.) Could it be that this was originally a DSC gun with an unmarked topstrap that was eventually provided to the U.S. Navy by the DSC...….and then marked "U.S. NAVY" on the topstrap at a later time???

When looking at the 6th example listed, s/n V2742xx listed it has the "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" stamp with flaming ordnance bomb, as well as an additional ordnance bomb on the butt. Would the butt bomb most likely indicate actual military use issue? (Most likely a later U.S. Navy issued gun IIRC?)

When looking at the 7th example listed, s/n 3484xx, while it has the expected "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" stamp with ordnance bomb on the topstrap, there is no ordnance bomb on the butt. Also, the "V" in the s/n is on the opposite side (forward) of the lanyard ring and apart from the serial number. Was this to signify that it was not to be issued for actual military use and supplied for a lesser role? Or is it just a change/fluke in the serial numbering system? (All the previous 5 Victory examples to it had the "V" immediately in front of the s/n and on the same rear side of the lanyard ring.)

One other interesting observation, the pre-victory butt serial number reads barrel pointing to the right. All the actual Victory examples' butt serial numbers read barrel pointing left. Am I to assume that started at Victory s/n 1? And since there was already more room on the rear side of the lanyard ring, due to the lanyard rings being installed slightly forward on the butt, why not just add the "V" to the s/n when it rolled past 1,000,000, and still mark it in the same direction as the pre-Victory? The pre-Victory I have is marked also to the rear of the lanyard ring. Why the need for reading it 180 degrees opposite as before?

Thanks,
Dale

Hello Dale, quite an impressive collection of nice Victory models.
Never got the bug on these.

gmborkovic said:

Hello Dale, quite an impressive collection of nice Victory models.
Never got the bug on these.

Click to expand...

Thank you Mike.

It's probably more of an accumulation than a collection though. I still need an early feature pre-Victory with traditional higher grade finish and checkered grips. Also a plain jane unmarked DSC gun is needed. I have been able to keep the pre-Victory/Victory collection to 4" .38spl examples though. (Aside from a couple of post war "S" prefix commercial examples......one 4" all original, and one refinished parkerized snubbie.)

Dale

Most of the Navy-stamped victories were made under a Navy contract and had no connection with Army Ordnance, therefore the flaming bomb stamp was not used. Toward the end, Army Ordnance took over supervision of the Navy contract and started stamping the Navy guns with the flaming bomb. And then by SN V267xxx, the Navy property stamp was no longer used. Some earlier post-Navy stamped examples used UNITED STATES PROPERTY, then changed soon to U. S. PROPERTY. I show SNs V2684xx and V2787xx as having the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp. Obviously there was some overlap in SNs during which the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp was replaced by U. S. PROPERTY stamp. From my list I cannot tell when the flaming bomb stamp started, but apparently at least by your V2196xx.

DWalt said:

Most of the Navy-stamped victories were made under a Navy contract and had no connection with Army Ordnance, therefore the flaming bomb stamp was not used. Toward the end, Army Ordnance took over supervision of the Navy contract and started stamping the Navy guns with the flaming bomb. And then by SN V267xxx, the Navy property stamp was no longer used. Some earlier post-Navy stamped examples used UNITED STATES PROPERTY, then changed soon to U. S. PROPERTY. I show SNs V2684xx and V2787xx as having the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp. Obviously there was some overlap in SNs during which the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp was replaced by U. S. PROPERTY stamp. From my list I cannot tell when the flaming bomb stamp started, but apparently at least by your V2196xx.

Click to expand...

Thanks D,

And what I really took away from the info was I'm going to need a "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" topstrap marked example to go with my "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" marked examples.

Was there room also for a flaming ordnance bomb and G.H.D. initials on those "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" marked topstrap examples?

Also, is there good reference material with regards to the info you provided or has it came about through a compilation of info other Victory owners have provided?

Dale

With such an... enigmatic.... title in the subject line I almost didn't open this one. Glad I did, since I learned something (as i so often do around here).

I have not seen a .38 Special M & P (either pre- or Victory Model) with the W. B. inspector’s stamp. Don’t know if that was a matter of when he was the inspector or if he only oversaw .38/200 production.

tenntex32 said:

And what I really took away from the info was I'm going to need a "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" topstrap marked example to go with my "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" marked examples.

Was there room also for a flaming ordnance bomb and G.H.D. initials on those "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" marked topstrap examples?

Also, is there good reference material with regards to the info you provided or has it came about through a compilation of info other Victory owners have provided?

Dale

Click to expand...

Hi Dale:

Since your original post includes only .38 Special chambered guns, I assume that your purpose is to stick with guns in that caliber. If so, I can save you some time and endless frustration. Your search for an original .38 Special with the left top strap marking of "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" will lead you to only a single variant: the two inch barreled USGI Victory Model shipped in late 1942. That is the only variant with that combination of top strap marking chambered in .38 Special. The USGI 2 inch guns are extremely scarce.

If you intend to pursue the study of the Victory Model, you'll need to start with S&WCA Member Charlie Pate's seminal work entitled U.S. Handguns of World War II. There is no better book on the subject.



HTH.

Since we consistently see the flaming bomb on the butt of both DSC and Maritime Commission guns, the contracts between Navy and Army aren't the whole story.

Keep in mind all this stamping was done at the factory by ordnance contract employees, not by military personnel from the various branches.

It's the same issue with the triple-P proof, which was supposedly a military proof, but almost all DSC Victorys shipped 1944/45 have those.

At Colt, it's even less clear; I have a Commando from 1943 with both G.H.D. and flaming bomb which shipped on a DSC order to a defense contractor.

Attached:
V 121432 Maritime Commission Contract shipped 4/27/43
V 626880 DSC Contract shipped 6/6/45

ordnanceguy said:

Hi Dale:

Since your original post includes only .38 Special chambered guns, I assume that your purpose is to stick with guns in that caliber. If so, I can save you some time and endless frustration. Your search for an original .38 Special with the left top strap marking of "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" will lead you to only a single variant: the two inch barreled USGI Victory Model shipped in late 1942. That is the only variant with that combination of top strap marking chambered in .38 Special. The USGI 2 inch guns are extremely scarce.

If you intend to pursue the study of the Victory Model, you'll need to start with S&WCA Member Charlie Pate's seminal work entitled U.S. Handguns of World War II. There is no better book on the subject.



HTH.

Click to expand...

Thanks Charlie. Maybe you can provide ordering/contact info for the book?

Also, I guess I'll just have to be content with photoshopping a few "V"s over some "S"s, as well as maybe photoshopping that "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the topstrap and possibly even photoshopping a lanyard loop on my "poor man's" Victory Snubbie Wannabee...…

At least until one of those Victory snubbies comes my way.

Dale

Absalom said:

Since we consistently see the flaming bomb on the butt of both DSC and Maritime Commission guns, the contracts between Navy and Army aren't the whole story.

Keep in mind all this stamping was done at the factory by ordnance contract employees, not by military personnel from the various branches.

It's the same issue with the triple-P proof, which was supposedly a military proof, but almost all DSC Victorys shipped 1944/45 have those.

At Colt, it's even less clear; I have a Commando from 1943 with both G.H.D. and flaming bomb which shipped on a DSC order to a defense contractor.

Attached:
V 121432 Maritime Commission Contract shipped 4/27/43
V 626880 DSC Contract shipped 6/6/45

Click to expand...

Abs, thanks for the pics.

One thing that stands out to me, when viewing your pics, is that whether or not the "V" was on the same side as the serial number on the butt was possibly determined by whether or not the serial number had a several wider numbers versus more narrower ones.

Then again, the separated "V" is on your later example as well, so maybe S&W simply started doing this at a certain point in production and stuck with it 'till the end?

Dale

BC38 said:

With such an... enigmatic.... title in the subject line I almost didn't open this one.

Click to expand...

But you still looked didn'tchya!

Dale

Absalom said:

At Colt, it's even less clear; I have a Commando from 1943 with both G.H.D. and flaming bomb which shipped on a DSC order to a defense contractor.

Click to expand...

I just looked at 3 Commandos I have and found:


sn 53xx Has flaming ordnance bomb but no GHD

sn 221xx Has flaming ordnance bomb but no GHD

sn 456xx no flaming ordnance bomb and no GHD


I've been looking for GHD marked variant(s), just haven't found the right one(s) yet.

Dale

tenntex32 said:

Thanks Charlie. Maybe you can provide ordering/contact info for the book? Dale

Click to expand...

Hi Dale:

Pate's book is readily available at Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more for the low low price of $59.99.

ordnanceguy said:

Hi Dale:

Pate's book is readily available at Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more for the low low price of $59.99.

Click to expand...

Most likely worth every penny and then some. Will also probably cost me a lot more money in the future.

Might have to get myself an early Christmas present!

Thank you once again,

Dale

Absalom said:

Since we consistently see the flaming bomb on the butt of both DSC and Maritime Commission guns, the contracts between Navy and Army aren't the whole story.

Keep in mind all this stamping was done at the factory by ordnance contract employees, not by military personnel from the various branches.

Click to expand...

If it is found on about anything and everything, then in layman terms what does the hand stamped flaming ordnance bomb found on the butt actually signify on Victory models? (Or the "accepted" signification amongst more astute collectors anyways.)

Thanks,
Dale

Regarding the "Flaming Bomb" (actually a flaming grenade) stamp, it is in several forms the symbol of the U. S. Army's Ordnance Department (later Ordnance Corps). Beyond that fact, its meaning when applied to a weapon is somewhat unclear, some sources claiming that it is an inspection or acceptance mark, others claiming that it is a military property mark. It could be any or all of those. My guess it that it is indicative that some weapon or a component thereof was manufactured under the authority or supervision of the U. S. Army Ordnance Department/Corps.

Absalom: With regard to your post #9 above, I believe that the ordnance inspectors who were located in the plants such as S&W and Colt were government employees rather than contractor personnel. They might have been assigned to Springfield Arsenal, or to the Rochester Ordnance District or some such, but if they were accepting goods under an Army contract, they were either government employees or military personnel.

My only personal experience in that regard involves inspection of military ammunition made at contractor facilities such as Winchester and Federal. In those cases, the inspectors were civilian employees of the Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA). I spoke with such personnel several times when I was involved with USAF small arms ammunition procurement involving Navy contracts. It may not have worked that way during WWII.

Skeetr57 said:

Absalom: With regard to your post #9 above, I believe that the ordnance inspectors who were located in the plants such as S&W and Colt were government employees rather than contractor personnel. They might have been assigned to Springfield Arsenal, or to the Rochester Ordnance District or some such, but if they were accepting goods under an Army contract, they were either government employees or military personnel.

Click to expand...

Hm. I’ll have to check up on that. I’m pretty sure I can blame my state of knowledge on Charles Pate, but I’ll have to look up his exact wording before I do that; I just moved and my copy of the book is buried in some box.

Conceptually, I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily so; just think of the GOCO plants where lots of private contractors worked for Army Ordnance. But you may well be right.