Navy Colt DA 45

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lestert357 said:
Would like to see the factory letter on that gun! Do you know when it was originally shipped to the Navy?
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The New Service in .45 Colt with the USN marking is pretty rare. Unless I’m misremembering something, there were only a limited number (1000?) of this M1909 variant shipped with that stamping, as it was just a transitional adoption before the 1911 pistol. So these would all have shipped to the Navy within the same very narrow time frame.

PS: Here's a letter for one shipment. Not mine, unfortunately ;)

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It is a Model of 1909. Most were made for the Army, some for the Navy and USMC. The Navy version is the least common, I think around 1000 made for the Navy. But any version is rarely seen. You are very fortunate to have one - it's one of the scarcest Colt revolvers regardless of the refinish. Most found today are in shabby condition. There has been quite a bit written on these in this forum. It is not chambered for the .45 Colt cartridge but the Model of 1909 .45 cartridge - Basically a .45 Colt case with a larger diameter rim. There was a recent article about the M1909 Colt in the American Rifleman, another in the 1990 Gun Digest. I have two of them, both the Army version.
 
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A close friend has an Army 1909, he loves the accuracy. He does nothing but complain about how the trigger guard beats his knuckles bloody! I gave him a grip adapter for it. (I use a grip adapter on my S&W 1917, they look so much better than target stocks or Pacmyer's!)

Ivan
 
Since my OP I have been reading and I think I'm wrong about the refinish. The gun is blue and is not marked as Govt Property, the trigger is blue and only the top of the hammer is blue so in my ignorance I thought it was refinished.
If I'm understanding what I have read the gun is supposed to be blue, no Govt Property mark, the trigger blue and only the top of the hammer blue. The gun also has a 3 on the left side frame at
the rear of the trigger guard and the proof stamp at the front of the guard and they look sharp to me.
I'm debating getting a letter. Larry
 
There are some interesting things about the .45 M1909 cartridge. It was loaded only at Frankford Arsenal, and apparently the commercial loaders such as Winchester and UMC did not load it, as it could not be used in the various Colt single action revolvers due to rim interference in the SA cylinder. The initial M1909 .45 ammunition production at FA used a fast burning flake smokeless powder, probably something similar to Bullseye. However, the loading machinery used by FA was somewhat undependable as to the uniformity of the powder charges it dropped, and the story is that double charges did occur, which resulted in some Ka-Boom incidents with the M1909 revolvers. FA approached duPont requesting a bulkier and somewhat rounded-granule smokeless propellant closer to black powder granule dimensions which would work better through their loading equipment. duPont did just that, the resulting propellant being named by them RSQ (Rescue), because it rescued FA from its propellant charge problems. RSQ was in the duPont powder line through the 1930s, but I have never seen a canister of it. I have seen pictures of RSQ, and the granules look a lot like Pyrodex, being nearly spherical. The idea of the larger rim diameter of the M1909 .45 cartridge was to get somewhat more positive and dependable fired case extraction in a DA revolver. Problems can be expected from .45 Colt cases jamming under the extractor star during the heat of battle action if the .45 Colt cartridge is used. I know as I have experienced such problems in firing .45 Colt cartridges in my M1909 revolvers. Note the unusual length of the extractor rod knob. It is somewhat longer than the knob used on other Colt New Service revolvers (including the Colt M1917) as it limits the extractor rod movement, i.e., the Army apparently believed that a shorter rod stroke which did not completely remove the longer .45 Colt case from the chambers was more appropriate for a service revolver where case jamming under the extractor star was considered a relibility issue.

My two M1909s:
zjDZ8i5.jpg
 
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The M-1909 ctg. was lightly loaded, wasn't it? To about .45 Schofield specs although in the longer Colt case?

Apparently, recoil was an issue.

It's understandable that the Navy needed just 1,000 .45 revolvers. They were probably all issued to Navy troops in the Philippines, where the need was to stop aggressive Moro fanatics. Naval landing forces wouldn't usually be large or common. Marine Corps revolvers were under a separate contract.
 
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Texas Star said:
The M-1909 ctg. was lightly loaded, wasn't it? To about .45 Schofield specs although in the longer Colt case?
Click to expand...

The military specification for the Model of 1909 .45 cartridge was a 250 grain lead bullet having a nominal MV of 715 ft/sec (some sources say 725 ft/sec), presumably as fired from a M1909 revolver. The old .45 Schofield military round could have been, and probably frequently was, used in the M1909 revolver. But the .45 Schofield cartridge had always been loaded with black powder at FA until very close to the end of its production in 1908-09 when a very small quantity was loaded using smokeless powder. FA had effectively ceased loading the .45 Schofield cartridge by 1902, although it continued to be loaded by commercial ammunition manufacturers for considerably longer. The M1909 .45 cartridge was never loaded with black powder. I have no references showing the MV of the .45 Schofield military loading (225-230 grain lead bullet with 26 grains of black powder).
 
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I've read that the Schofield bullet had a speed of 725 FPS, so same as the M-1909.

By contrast, the .455 Colt used a 265 grain bullet at 750 FPS.
 
As I have never heard of the .45 M1909 cartridge I find this discussion fascinating. I do have one question, however, and it relates to the OP's gun and the letter Absalom added for a Colt New Service Revolver Model of 1909.

The letter clearly says that the caliber is
.45/c
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and that is the official shorthand for what is correctly called the .45 Colt and incorrectly called the .45 Long Colt.

So - how do we know that the Colt New Service Revolver Model of 1909 in question is literally a somewhat different caliber than simple .45 Colt?
 
Texas Star said:
The M-1909 ctg. was lightly loaded, wasn't it? To about .45 Schofield specs although in the longer Colt case?

Apparently, recoil was an issue.

It's understandable that the Navy needed just 1,000 .45 revolvers. They were probably all issued to Navy troops in the Philippines, where the need was to stop aggressive Moro fanatics. Naval landing forces wouldn't usually be large or common. Marine Corps revolvers were under a separate contract.
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I have read in several places that the Board wanted a load that was a 250 Grain slug at 725 FPS. American Rifleman | Last of Its Kind: The USMC Model 1909 Colt
 
ISCS Yoda said:
As I have never heard of the .45 M1909 cartridge I find this discussion fascinating. I do have one question, however, and it relates to the OP's gun and the letter Absalom added for a Colt New Service Revolver Model of 1909.

The letter clearly says that the caliber is and that is the official shorthand for what is correctly called the .45 Colt and incorrectly called the .45 Long Colt.

So - how do we know that the Colt New Service Revolver Model of 1909 in question is literally a somewhat different caliber than simple .45 Colt?
Click to expand...

Dimensionally the .45 Colt case differs from the Model of 1909 .45 case only in the diameter of the rim. The nominal rim diameter of the .45 Colt case is 0.510-0.516" while the (final) M1909 rim is 0.536". There were early variations of the M1909 .45 case made by FA having slightly smaller rim diameters (0.533" and 0.525"). The cartridges also differ in bullet weight. However the .45 Colt and the M1909 .45 cartridges are essentially interchangeable when fired in the M1909 revolver - recognizing that extracting and ejecting the fired M1909 case was considered by the Army to be more trouble-free due to its larger rim diameter.

Those owning a M1909 Colt revolver today have little choice about ammunition - only .45 Colt or .45 Schofield can be used. I think there is also a .45 "Cowboy" loading which would also work. The M1909 .45 cartridge is unobtainable in shooting quantities. A side story. I have fired both .38-40 and .44-40 cartridges in one of my M1909 revolvers. Surprisingly, I could keep shots on the paper at 15 yards with those despite the undersized bullets.
 
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FWIW, I had an almost new New Service with 5.5 inch barrel, made about 1936. It was very accurate and shot to the sights. I used Remington 250 grain lead ammo and had no extraction problems. This gun was also used by both NYSP and RCMP for over a generation and if they'd had problems, they'd have had M-1909 ammo loaded for them.

Can one use .455 Colt ammo in a gun chambered in .45 Colt? Not that you'll find much of it today.
 
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Texas Star said:
Can one use .455 Colt ammo in a gun chambered in .45 Colt? Not that you'll find much of it today.
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Probably. The rim of the .455 is somewhat thinner than the rim of the .45 Colt, so there could be a headspacing problem that might result in misfires. But I have not tried that. Note that the .455 case rim is also of a larger diameter than that of the .45 Colt, so there could be rim interference problems in some SA revolvers.
 
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Factory Letters

tops said:
I ordered the letter today. The lady said it would take 90-100 days. Larry
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Larry, thank you, and hopefully it will document your Navy Colt. I see Colt’s turn around time for letters hasn’t improved any. Back in the 1990’s I ordered a Colt factory letter and a S&W factory letter on the same day. Exactly ten days later I received both the S&W factory letter from Roy and a post card from Colt telling me I would get the factory letter in 90 - 100 days! True story. Well, Roy doesn’t turn around letters in 10 days anymore, but he sure beats 90 - 100 days by a wide margin!
 
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