Help with proper grip on semi auto

Patrol you may be right. I am an old guy. The point is that no ONE hold is good for everyone. Consider the issues some individuals are having with accidentally putting the slide lock on while shooting the Sig 365.
Large hands (like mine) could have that problem with any small pistol produced today.
There are advantages and disadvantages to any hold used depending on the pistol, the hand size, physical handicaps etc.. An open mind is important for the resolution of any issue.
I had a Kel Tec 32auto and the thumbs forward hold would be impossible for me.
I do appreciate your comments and views. Whatever works for you is good!

Be SAFE and Shoot often!

HughD1 said:

Both of her thumbs are on the left side of the gun. Best picture I could come up with.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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pursuant to the above photo / I would suggest
Right thumb fully extended
left thumb fully extended so that the tip of the thumb rest infront of the right thumb , creating support "below" the slide...

nachogrande said:

We do not live in a perfect world. For S/D purposes in a REAL situation, both hands may not be working or, available. It might be worthwhile to practice one handed, & point shooting with both hands. "Now just hold still while I get my grip/stance/sight alignment all set up".

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So true.

My preferred grip style is what I call a modified single hand grip.

Single hand grip. Right hand shooter. So grip with right hand backstrap in the meat of the hand not the web. If in the web then the gun is not inlign with your wrist and elbow. On 9 mm this will tend to make your shots innacurrate. On a big Boomer magnum revolver it will tend to bend your wrist backward. Then you can either complain about all that recoil affecting your wrist and hand or maybe say it was not that bad. If inline with the meat of you hand the skeletal structure will handle the rcoil. On the 9 mm you will be on target much easier.
Three finger apply force on fronstrap. The handgun is now level and inline with wrist and elbow. Keep trigger finger free and away outside of trigger guard until making the shot.
Trigger finger placement. Do not assume on the pad of the trigger finger is correct or best. For me none of my guns handgun rifle or shotgun fit this way.
I do not place the trigger finger at the same place for M&P j frame p238 686 etc. Even 1911 with an A1 short trigger or a 1911 long trigger requires different finger placement. They all require slightly different placement because the size of each gun is diffrrent. Determine where that location is for each gun by first gripping as described then try different finger position so when squeezing the trigger at the wall the break is naturally directly rearward and in line. Does not pull shots low left. A problem many complain about and are puzzled as how to correct.

Support hand.

Well that is what it is. No push pull. I bring the support hand up below the dust cover and in front of the trigger guard. I do not overlap my left hand fingers over my right hand. Because it does not contribute to a more secure hold of the gun. Also if pivot point is on the grip with both hand in contact the handgun can rotate as if it were on a fulcrum.
By placing left hand in contact with dust cover and front of trigger guard I establish two different contact points and prevent that pivot at the grip with little to no effort. I also apply little to no force on the trigger guard.. The left hand is sort of like how I hold a rifle with the left hand steadied on a rest or bean bag.

I really do not need the left hand it is an aide. So in SD I can use a hand held flash light or open a door or whatever with the left hand. And still have a proven right hand technique.

Getting back to the right hand.
I discovered this is a great naturally pointing style and actually lends itself to point shooting and does not require 5000 practice rounds.

Thumb forward, isoscelse weaver are great for completion. For SD style real world field one hand shooting my style works very well.
I do not know how you will hone your style, try different ways, but this method has always worked for me.

Ladies can do it too..

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSmDxWt8N4[/ame]

patrol said:

Name one relevant instructor or competitor that teaches or uses anything but the thumbs forward method.

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Israeli Special Forces?

This is the 4 on 3 method. I have size Large hands and I couldn't find anything comfortable with my Shield 9. I was always in my own way, hitting my trigger finger with my left hand, too much thinking to use other techniques.

The Israeli method made the most sense for me and my small Shield 9.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDSLYTrH5LU&t=233s[/ame]

Mister X said:

Every one of them. I wouldn’t consider any defensive shooting instructor relevant if they only teach the thumbs forward grip. What gamers do is irrelevant to me.

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So, with the “interlocking thumbs” grip, a fact that cannot be denied is that you lose maximum hand/pistol surface contact with the frame. Can you explain to me why, with a proper thumbs forward grip, which offers maximum hand/frame contact, why that grip isn’t relevant? Asking for a friend . . .

Muss Muggins said:

So, with the “interlocking thumbs” grip, a fact that cannot be denied is that you lose maximum hand/pistol surface contact with the frame. Can you explain to me why, with a proper thumbs forward grip, which offers maximum hand/frame contact, why that grip isn’t relevant? Asking for a friend . . .

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Because there are many folks who don't have the hand strength to apply the squeeze required by the thumbs forward/IPSC grip. I read an article about this quite recently and I'll post the link when I dig it out. Short version, the interlocking thumbs grip is easier to teach and works for more people with most guns.

I used to shoot thumbs forward, but I find it totally unsuitable for small carry guns due to the length of my fingers. To my great surprise I found I am more consistent with the interlocking thumbs even with larger guns. Heresy to some, I'm sure. Ithink I've tracked it down to my wrists not wanting to rotate to the desired position.

Here's the article:

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/whats-wrong-grip/

Hey, if it works for you, whatever. My experience is that thumbs forward is actually logarithmically more effective the smaller the pistol gets. In any event, the fact remains that less surface contact is a lesser grip, and interlocking thumbs is less surface contact. I have also seen people with the interlocking thumbs grip get confused, lock their offhand thumb behind the topstrap, and begin to bleed profusely. If it works for you, that's fine. Just don't misunderstand that that grip on a handgun is about 20% strong hand, 80% offhand, and lessening surface contact lessens that 80%. It may be much more comfortable, but it is less effective . . .

LVSteve said:

Because there are many folks who don't have the hand strength to apply the squeeze required by the thumbs forward/IPSC grip. I read an article about this quite recently and I'll post the link when I dig it out. Short version, the interlocking thumbs grip is easier to teach and works for more people with most guns.

I used to shoot thumbs forward, but I find it totally unsuitable for small carry guns due to the length of my fingers. To my great surprise I found I am more consistent with the interlocking thumbs. Heresy to some, I'm sure.

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My thinking would be to use the support hand to completely fill in the "open" space on the left side of grip (for a right handed shooter) and let the thumbs fall naturally. (Hands are on grip as high as possible w/o slide bite.)
My understanding it is not so much important where thumbs are placed as it is to fill in all the empty space of the grip. This is mainly to reduce muzzle rise for a quicker 2nd shot .
I would agree also to use the most comfortable grip according to her hand size and not obsess much on exact thumb placement.

LVSteve said:

Because there are many folks who don't have the hand strength to apply the squeeze required by the thumbs forward/IPSC grip. I read an article about this quite recently and I'll post the link when I dig it out. Short version, the interlocking thumbs grip is easier to teach and works for more people with most guns.

I used to shoot thumbs forward, but I find it totally unsuitable for small carry guns due to the length of my fingers. To my great surprise I found I am more consistent with the interlocking thumbs even with larger guns. Heresy to some, I'm sure. Ithink I've tracked it down to my wrists not wanting to rotate to the desired position.’

Here's the article:

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/whats-wrong-grip/

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I read the article, and the statement that killed it for me was the comparison to grip strength and racking the slide. My staff taught the introductory Range session to another 90+ people today. I had one small statures female in particular who couldn’t rack the slide. Funny enough, though she had not the strength to rack the slide, her grip never slipped from the slide or frame during racking or the grip generally during shooting. We helped her and she has exercises to develop some needed strength and dexterity.

The weak muscles were not in the hands but the arms.

Everyone is different, and there are exceptions to every rule, but it has been demonstrated over and over that thumbs forward in its various forms is more effective. We’ve seen this from countless students, who are not difficult to teach in proper grip when one actually tries vs tries to disprove, and it is repeatable.

Yes, there are those who say their grip is better. None of them are top competitors or validated modern combat shooters. This is in large part because they get beat in practical shooting when using the less effective grip. It is simply and clearly sub-par to thumbs forward.

If it works for you (meaning you don’t feel the need to change or improve) then fine, but know that unless you are testing it in training, competition, or adverse social events you don’t know what you don’t know.

Reading an article by someone won’t change that.

Pisgah said:

Many folks swear by the thumbs-forward grip, If it works for them, fine. But I have always felt, and still believe, that the #1 reason it ever came in to existence is the perceived "cool factor" by people who don't know any better. It simply makes no practical sense whatsoever.

She should use whatever grip allows her a firm grip and positive control of the gun, no matter what any "expert" says.

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"makes no practical sense whatsoever"

????

I use the thumbs forward grip after taking some training classes back in 2012? It works and works really well.

It used by not only almost every serious competition shooter but also by military special forces and used because it works.

The logic in the thumbs forward grip is undeniable. With that grip you obtain a high grip that covers all of the pistol grip and allows maximum control (with two hands).

I am not going to tell you how to shoot and if your way is good or bad, but I will tell you the thumbs forward grip is a good/great grip if you can master it.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrA7wMXuuQ[/ame]

SoCalDep said:

If it works for you (meaning you don’t feel the need to change or improve) then fine, but know that unless you are testing it in training, competition, or adverse social events you don’t know what you don’t know.

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I think the key for me is that my wrists don't rotate in the way most videos and trainers demonstrate. I've had "tight wrists" since I can remember, and trying to get my weak hand wrist twisted down as recommended is uncomfortable for me, and that spoils my aim.

As for who teaches what, a well known training center here in Nevada also teaches the locked thumbs method. They de-trained a skeptical buddy from thumbs forward during their course and he was surprised to find he shot just as well as before. Yes, it doesn't make sense to reduce the amount of hand contact applied to the gun, but for him and I it works. No clue why.

The thumbs forward grip - for me, I don't use it. I have kind of big hands and some kind of small pistols. When I lock the slide open, and even begin to try the thumb forward grip - I find it almost impossible to grip and not have the bottom joint on my shooting hand thumb where it contacts the slide, so - not going to shoot it that way.

I'm an amateur and relatively new to shooting, so - on a learning curve. What I find works for me - regardless of shooting a revolver or semi-auto, is to grab the handgun with shooting hand as though I were going to be shooting with one hand, and then apply the heel of my hand off hand to the grip and wrap around my shooting hand - making sure to apply pressure to the bottom of the trigger guard with index finger of off hand. For me, this adds a great deal of stability in sighting a target and not having my sights all over the place.

The other reason I've steered away from the thumb forward grip - is I also shoot revolvers and getting those thumbs too far forward is kind of a no no, so - don't want to use that grip out of habit, and end up sticking my left thumb next to the forcing cone, which I'm sure I would not find enjoyable.

The only thing I've found benefits me is thinking of the two contact points with the left hand, the heel of the hand, and the index finger - and applying solid contact pressure. This takes away some of the need for the shooting hand to "grip" and allows more stable aiming, and easier control of the trigger.

It can be cumbersome to spend too much time on grip and stance. When I practice dry fire I refine what I'm doing, and then I go to the range - and it works different with actual rounds, so - my take is just do what is safe and good for your fingers and thumbs, and have some fun.

Talking about different grips is just to give people options. What really matters is what we see on the target.

If your shots are going where you intend, does it matter what grip you use? No. If your shots are not going where you intend, then you should be looking at your grip, trigger finger, technique...etc. Anything less is just fooling yourself.

To say this this grip or that grip is the "correct" way and some other way is wrong, is silly without seeing the individual in person. The thumbs forward grip is not right or wrong, it works for many and not for others. So what? It's just something to try.

I use a kind of thumbs forward:


This works for me, but may not work for you. The only thing that's wrong is something unsafe (thumb near the forcing cone of a revolver) or not trying to improve because you don't want to try.

Groo here
Modern pistol grips are almost all derived from sport shooting...
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Any fighting grip should be based on a natural motion or action you use every day.[like matial arts]
Hold the gun like you would a club, or better a hammer.
Thumb down fingers rapped around then place the other hand over the first.
This is a natural grip and you use it every day so to use shooting is easy.
Always keep the shooting hand thumb down as this closes the grip and
makes sure the grip safty is depressed.
The thumb up grip is a fail to fire in the making .[thumb up is ok for glocks but what if you get a hold of something with a grip safety???]
Placing the thumbs up also can cause rubbing on the slide[BAD]
So unless your gun is modded with a safety shield and a "gass peddal"
I would not do it.[ Been there, dun that, gun failed, saw others do it too]
Will NOT teach ANYONE the thumb up grip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After they can do what they want....

A gun is not a club or a hammer. As for the thumb hitting the slide, that might be an issue with a 5” 9mm 1911 but other than that nope. I, competitors, and every modern shooter to include Delta/CAG/SMU or whatever they call themselves these days and other military special forces, thousands of deputies and participating law enforcement agency recruits and in service personnel we’ve trained, and members of my department who have collectively been involved in hundreds of shootings all use thumbs-forward.

If you see problems you are doing it wrong. If you see problems in the people you train you are training it wrong. I’ve personally trained hundreds of females and our unit of 18 instructors taught 14,000 students in classes last year alone. I got 1911s authorized by my department and have hundreds of of thousands of rounds through them. I’ve been doing this teaching guns thing for eight years on top of carrying a gun in harms way for a decade before that so while we can disagree on individual needs because there will always be injuries, differences in the human body, motivation, etc, anyone who tells me I’m wrong has a lot of explaining to do...

I say this because I’m tired of people with minimal skill, perspective, and experience trying to tell other people what to do. For everyone else... be VERY careful about what you read on the internet and forums and Instagram. Get good training then get more, and not all from the same place. Heck- don’t you dare believe me... I could be some 13 year old kid in my mom’s basement.

Univibe said:

Oh, yeah. That thumb pointing at target grip is so cool. Looks like a video game. No! Lock those thumbs down tight for the two way shooting range.

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Okay, I realise that from where I am my experiences are little (actually a lot) different that most here, but this is my experience.

A number of years ago we started wearing hard armour plate when carrying firearms. This necessitated discarding totally the weaver stance (taught when I was trained in firearms and which I used outside at club events) in favour of a more straight on stance to not expose the gaps in the plates at the sides. A year or so later the grip was changed from a "thumbs locked down" to the "thumbs forward" for two reasons.

One was that smaller statured staff were finding it difficult to control the G17 in "rapid fire" in the straight on stance,Nbut more importantly we were being taught unsighted fire out to about 5 meters, emergency shooting. The "thumbs forward" was adopted so that the thumbs acted as a crude aiming device. Where the thumbs pointed the pistol shot to on the target.

One of the disciplines I shoot is an Australian/new Zealand version of the PPC/1500 with a 7 yard string. Fire 6 rounds unsighted and below the shoulder on one target, reload and fire another 6 the same way at a second target. I started using the thumbs forward grip with my elbows locked at my sides and found my groups well centred inside the 8 ring. I have taught this method to a number of shooters, male, female, large and small. All have benefited from the grip and shooting style.

I use the same grip with pistols and revolvers from contact distance out to 50 yards, from my little Astra Constable .32 Auto (okay max shooting distance 25 yards) up to and including full size 1911 .45's and my 6" 686, with some good results.

Grip the gun high. The first joints of my second, ring and pinky fingers go down the inside edge of the grip. I pull the grip hard into the web of my thumb with the second joints of the same fingers, almost but not quite as hard as I can grip. My shooting hand palm does not contact the grip, neither do the first joints of my shooting hand fingers.

Web of my supporting hand thumb goes on the inside of the grip. Support hand fingers go around the grip but between, not over, the shooting hand fingers, and support hand squeezes hard from left to right.

Thumbs forward as stated above.
Oh, and when shooting one handed, both strong and weak hand, I use the same "fore and aft only" grip. The gun recoils more but in a straight back and up and down motion without any twisting to either side.

Rastoff said:

Almost. I've watched too many shooters shoot poorly because they weren't willing to try any adjustment. A better way to say this is, whatever allows her to hit the intended target is right.

Almost. Training is important, but it has to be the right training. Lots of people were "trained" by granpa and their uncle and can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. Then there are some that have received no formal training and shoot very well.

There are 6 fundamentals to shooting a gun:

1. Stance
2. Grip
3. Sight Alignment
4. Sight Picture
5. Trigger Control
6. Follow Through

Today's lesson will be on grip.

Here is the proper grip explainedI'm a lefty, but it's the same for a right hand shooter just mirror image.)

Get your shooting hand as high in the grip as possible. By doing this, it puts the bore of the gun as low as possible. The lower the bore, the easier it is to control muzzle flip.

The support hand goes on top of the shooting hand. Note that the support hand fingers are on top of the shooting hand fingers.

The gun is gripped by the palm of the hand and the middle and ring fingers. The thumbs and pinky should be relaxed. They are not really part of the grip and can only cause the shot to be pulled off line.

While I prefer to see a thumbs high and relaxed type of grip, crossing the thumbs is not bad as long as they can be kept relaxed. What absolutely must not be done is this:

The left thumb being across the back is a recipe for disaster. This will be the result:

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Really good advise.
Many of the aforementioned postings provide good information but this one stands out.
I would also offer that you consider Jerry's Volume 1 Jerry Barnhart | Products Archive
Vic

One thing I've started doing is scrunching my shooting shoulder a little and trying to line up my shooting arm more in a direct axis to my line of sight. I saw a competitive shooter showing how he did this and why. Seems to make recoil management much easier/quicker and certainly for longer shots, which I don't really practice currently, I would put my chin/cheek right on my shoulder to emulate shooting a rifle a little.

Just trying to illustrate, grip is one piece of the puzzle, don't forget to put some work into the other pieces, arm position, foot stance, each of them will change your grip a little - and what's working for me, took me a lot of different conscious efforts to find something where for me - it feels like the right way; for now anyways.