ATF decides Honey Badger AR Pistol is SBR

it would be nice to have a rule book everyone can follow...
without that it is just targeted arbitrary enforcement...
I have always had difficulty with "because I say so" from anyone...

I view the problem differently. The laws enacted should be clear and specific, allowing everyone to know with certainty which specific acts are prohibited. Instead, laws are passed containing authorization for appointed bureaucrats to issue regulations which have the force of law. Subjective interpretations are bad enough, but interpretations that may be changed arbitrarily are much worse.

Of course, doing things this way allows those responsible to place all blame on others. Perhaps the reason?
 
The ATF has “Ruled” a shoe lace is a machine gun, so anything is possible.

The NFA control of SBRs is a vestige of the original NFA intent to control handguns and should be done away with.
 
I view the problem differently. The laws enacted should be clear and specific, allowing everyone to know with certainty which specific acts are prohibited. Instead, laws are passed containing authorization for appointed bureaucrats to issue regulations which have the force of law. Subjective interpretations are bad enough, but interpretations that may be changed arbitrarily are much worse.

Of course, doing things this way allows those responsible to place all blame on others. Perhaps the reason?

You have the right idea but it's more complicated than that.

Laws are written by legislators (or more often their young energetic and mostly clueless aides) with a lot of input from lobbyists.

Your statement is a situation where "be careful what you ask for applies in spades. Most laws as written are either not enforceable or would end up prohibiting things that were not intended to be prohibited even more than the current process. Plus the current process has some checks and balances in it as well as a requirement for public comment and input.

Ideally, how it works is that a law is introduced in both houses, reconciled in both houses to resolve any differences, and the reconciled bill is then passed on both houses.

Once that happens the law is sent to the cognizant federal agency to write the regulations that will implement the law. Again, ideally, the federal agency will have program experts who understand the thing being regulated write regulations that:
I) reflect the intent of congress;
II) make sense to the program or thing being regulated and the people who use the program or thing; and
III) Describe the law and how it is enforced with useful examples and definitions that fully describe the law, but don't go beyond it into what is termed "over reach".

Once the proposed regulations are written they are published in the federal register for a 60 day (minimum) public comment period. They proposed regs are accompanied by preamble language that explains the rationale for the proposed regulations and the language used.

Public comment is then received and changes are made in the regulations to reflect the concerns and problems that are noted in the public comments and the final regs are then published for a 30 day comment where the federal agency then response to each comment (they can be grouped by content) and explains what changes, if any were made based on the comments.

Once the regulations become final, ANY change in interpretation of the regulations that substantially changes the effect of the regulations REQUIRES a new public comment period.

-----

The above is the ideal. Here's where it sometimes runs off the rails:

1) In the US we produce far more attorneys than we can ever use, even chasing ambulances in our already tort ridden legal system. The surplus often go work for Federal agencies where they think their knowledge of the law will be very useful in writing and interpreting regulations. It usually isn't.


2) Those legally trained staff almost always lack any real program expertise and know very little about the program or issue being regulated. Consequently, unless there are very clear committee notes from congressional hearing talking about exactly what the new law is supposed to regulate and how, those legally trained staff with no program knowledge tend to fall back on a "narrow read of the law" to determine congressional intent.


3) They double down on that lack of knowledge by ignoring the subject matter experts in the agency that do know how things work and what makes sense in the field. They do that because they value a narrow read of the law more than actual knowledge or even common sense.


4) Those legally trained not so knowledgeable staff also know they don't know much about the program or issue, so they tend to be very risk averse and want to stay very close to the language written in the law.

In fact you'll often find regulations that just regurgitate what was written in the statute. That's parly what you asked for, and when the statutory language is poor, the result is equally poor, but then things work right it's where a functional federal agency run by knowledgeable people can turn a poorly written law into something that actually works.

This is also made worse in departments where senior leaders ask their offices of general counsel (actual practicing attorneys) "what should we do" rather than the correct question of "this is what we need to do, tell us how to make it defensible. When you ask an attorney "what should I do, he or she will ALWAYS the most conservative and most risk averse answer. That will almost always be something that is *not* in the best interest of performance, serving the public, etc.


5) To make matters even worse, given fairly quick deadlines to get the regs published, the regs for complex laws are written in separate pieces by those not very knowledgeable staff on separate committees. When that occurs you invariably end up with massive inconsistencies within a particular law and implementing regulations, but also with other laws and implementing regulations. Those conflicts cause all kinds of enforcement issues.


6) There is also the problem of federal agencies ignoring public comments. It's most often a case of lack of knowledge and/or being risk averse. Sometimes it's just a case of an administration pushing a specific agenda, and wanting to force something into regulation even though it doesn't reflect the will of the public.

What you'll see in the second public comment period is comment after comment with "we disagree with the commenters" and/or "we made no change to the language". In fact you'll see regulations with hundreds of negative public comments where the federal agency made no change at all in the proposed regs. At that point it's just an agency going through the motions and not honoring those comments. Unfortunately, while there is a requirement to publish regs for public comment, there is no requirement that a federal agency actually change a thing based on that comment.

7) Finally, there is also the problem of regulatory overreach. That occurs at two points in time.

First, it can happen when a law is initially implemented when the legally trained staff above take an overly narrow and risk averse read of the law and go way beyond the intent of congress in writing the regulations.

Second and more often, it is usually the result of an administration or it's political appointees deciding to reinterpret a long standing regulation.

The second, is a legitimate thing to do *IF* they open it up for public comment *AND* honor those comments by either revising or dropping the proposed change in interpretation.

A few years ago that happened when the ATF decided to ban M855 ammo by reinterpreting the regs to identify it as "armor piercing" ammunition. However, they received over 97,000 negative comments on that proposed change and they dropped it.

----

The things that would improve the process are:

A) better thought out and better written statutes coming from congress;

B) political appointees and and cabinet level officials who actually are experts in their fields rather than political hacks and loyalists;

C) a law requiring public comment to be considered and reflected in revised final regulations;

D) hiring standards that either out and out require field experience, or give it a huge amount of preference in hiring, and and career ladders that *REQUIRE* field experience to advance to management positions; and

E) enforcement of the law requiring any significant change in interpretation of a regulation go out for public comment.
 
Y
The things that would improve the process are:

A) better thought out and better written statutes coming from congress;

B) political appointees and and cabinet level officials who actually are experts in their fields rather than political hacks and loyalists;

C) a law requiring public comment to be considered and reflected in revised final regulations;

D) hiring standards that either out and out require field experience, or give it a huge amount of preference in hiring, and and career ladders that *REQUIRE* field experience to advance to management positions; and

E) enforcement of the law requiring any significant change in interpretation of a regulation go out for public comment.

True , but until Santa brings me that pony I won't look for any of that to happen

Don't get me wrong. I am pretty sure you are correct in how it really works for the most part. I also agree with you on how it should work. But, I gave up on thinking that the government should or would do all that much in a sensible manner.

Most of those in Government have never had a job that actually produced anything tangible except for tons of scrap paper
 
Last edited:
Quite honestly I'm surprised that the "long pistol braces" on "pistols" have lasted this long without the ATF getting uppity.

This also reminds us that there is a bunch of legacy stuff in the NFA that needs to go away.
 
You have the right idea but it's more complicated than that.

Laws are written by legislators (or more often their young energetic and mostly clueless aides) with a lot of input from lobbyists.

Your statement is a situation where "be careful what you ask for applies in spades. Most laws as written are either not enforceable or would end up prohibiting things that were not intended to be prohibited even more than the current process. Plus the current process has some checks and balances in it as well as a requirement for public comment and input.

Ideally, how it works is that a law is introduced in both houses, reconciled in both houses to resolve any differences, and the reconciled bill is then passed on both houses.

Once that happens the law is sent to the cognizant federal agency to write the regulations that will implement the law. Again, ideally, the federal agency will have program experts who understand the thing being regulated write regulations that:
I) reflect the intent of congress;
II) make sense to the program or thing being regulated and the people who use the program or thing; and
III) Describe the law and how it is enforced with useful examples and definitions that fully describe the law, but don't go beyond it into what is termed "over reach".

Once the proposed regulations are written they are published in the federal register for a 60 day (minimum) public comment period. They proposed regs are accompanied by preamble language that explains the rationale for the proposed regulations and the language used.

Public comment is then received and changes are made in the regulations to reflect the concerns and problems that are noted in the public comments and the final regs are then published for a 30 day comment where the federal agency then response to each comment (they can be grouped by content) and explains what changes, if any were made based on the comments.

Once the regulations become final, ANY change in interpretation of the regulations that substantially changes the effect of the regulations REQUIRES a new public comment period.

-----

The above is the ideal. Here's where it sometimes runs off the rails:

1) In the US we produce far more attorneys than we can ever use, even chasing ambulances in our already tort ridden legal system. The surplus often go work for Federal agencies where they think their knowledge of the law will be very useful in writing and interpreting regulations. It usually isn't.


2) Those legally trained staff almost always lack any real program expertise and know very little about the program or issue being regulated. Consequently, unless there are very clear committee notes from congressional hearing talking about exactly what the new law is supposed to regulate and how, those legally trained staff with no program knowledge tend to fall back on a "narrow read of the law" to determine congressional intent.


3) They double down on that lack of knowledge by ignoring the subject matter experts in the agency that do know how things work and what makes sense in the field. They do that because they value a narrow read of the law more than actual knowledge or even common sense.


4) Those legally trained not so knowledgeable staff also know they don't know much about the program or issue, so they tend to be very risk averse and want to stay very close to the language written in the law.

In fact you'll often find regulations that just regurgitate what was written in the statute. That's parly what you asked for, and when the statutory language is poor, the result is equally poor, but then things work right it's where a functional federal agency run by knowledgeable people can turn a poorly written law into something that actually works.

This is also made worse in departments where senior leaders ask their offices of general counsel (actual practicing attorneys) "what should we do" rather than the correct question of "this is what we need to do, tell us how to make it defensible. When you ask an attorney "what should I do, he or she will ALWAYS the most conservative and most risk averse answer. That will almost always be something that is *not* in the best interest of performance, serving the public, etc.


5) To make matters even worse, given fairly quick deadlines to get the regs published, the regs for complex laws are written in separate pieces by those not very knowledgeable staff on separate committees. When that occurs you invariably end up with massive inconsistencies within a particular law and implementing regulations, but also with other laws and implementing regulations. Those conflicts cause all kinds of enforcement issues.


6) There is also the problem of federal agencies ignoring public comments. It's most often a case of lack of knowledge and/or being risk averse. Sometimes it's just a case of an administration pushing a specific agenda, and wanting to force something into regulation even though it doesn't reflect the will of the public.

What you'll see in the second public comment period is comment after comment with "we disagree with the commenters" and/or "we made no change to the language". In fact you'll see regulations with hundreds of negative public comments where the federal agency made no change at all in the proposed regs. At that point it's just an agency going through the motions and not honoring those comments. Unfortunately, while there is a requirement to publish regs for public comment, there is no requirement that a federal agency actually change a thing based on that comment.

7) Finally, there is also the problem of regulatory overreach. That occurs at two points in time.

First, it can happen when a law is initially implemented when the legally trained staff above take an overly narrow and risk averse read of the law and go way beyond the intent of congress in writing the regulations.

Second and more often, it is usually the result of an administration or it's political appointees deciding to reinterpret a long standing regulation.

The second, is a legitimate thing to do *IF* they open it up for public comment *AND* honor those comments by either revising or dropping the proposed change in interpretation.

A few years ago that happened when the ATF decided to ban M855 ammo by reinterpreting the regs to identify it as "armor piercing" ammunition. However, they received over 97,000 negative comments on that proposed change and they dropped it.

----

The things that would improve the process are:

A) better thought out and better written statutes coming from congress;

B) political appointees and and cabinet level officials who actually are experts in their fields rather than political hacks and loyalists;

C) a law requiring public comment to be considered and reflected in revised final regulations;

D) hiring standards that either out and out require field experience, or give it a huge amount of preference in hiring, and and career ladders that *REQUIRE* field experience to advance to management positions; and

E) enforcement of the law requiring any significant change in interpretation of a regulation go out for public comment.

Excellent post! Thank you for your efforts and excellent communications skills.
 
I think I just get confused too easily. Kind of like "who's on first" type thing.
 
Last edited:
Looking at the Honey Badger Carbine, with collapsible stock, and then looking at the Honey Badger collapsible "pistol brace" on the pistol ... it strikes me that ...

A rose, by any other name.

Might as well revisit the attempt to evade consequences by doing a little sidestep and protest ... "It depends how to define the word is" ...

Their collapsible Carbine stock and their collapsible "pistol brace" don't appear to significantly vary in form and function when looked at from the pistol brace/stock utility, meaning both would look to be as easily, and interchangeably, used as a stock. One has an open center and some looped fabric. Just calling one a brace, and putting a loop of material on it, may not prevent it from being as easily utilized as a stock as their Carbine collapsible stock. Is that just a convenient coincidence? :confused:

The company may have skated a bit too close to the edge to suit the involved regulatory agency. Skate too close to the fire, risk getting singed.

If other companies have managed to avoid this debacle with their "pistol brace" designs? Hmmm. How could this injury have been prevented? ;)
 
Last edited:
I traded in my evil rifles so I didn’t have to register them again. I figure they will tax the ones who own them next. God only knows how much I love our country. I pray things were normal again.
I really wanted an ak pistol but waited too long to get one. The bb and pellet guns look good, maybe next hobby.
 
Last edited:
I think the problem with the Honey Badger is that the "brace" is adjustable for length. Every other brace I've seen is fixed. The Honey Badger brace may as well be an adjustable carbine stock. I'll bet a dollar that's how the ATF saw it.

I'm not worried about my AR pistol with my fixed brace.

I'm agreeing with you 100% that the cause for alarm with the fed boyz is that the "brace" is adjustable. No different than putting a six position telescopic stock on a regular AR pistol. I built my own AR pistol with a 7" barrel and decided to forgo the brace (don't like them) and put on a Phase 5 padded buffer tube.
 
I'm agreeing with you 100% that the cause for alarm with the fed boyz is that the "brace" is adjustable. No different than putting a six position telescopic stock on a regular AR pistol. I built my own AR pistol with a 7" barrel and decided to forgo the brace (don't like them) and put on a Phase 5 padded buffer tube.
Well, FWIW, look up the Ruger 08570 AR pistol. It has a length-adjustable arm brace too, and the ATF hasn't gone after it (yet).

I think the theory advanced by others is more plausible.
That it is more a combination of 1) they didn't get BATFE approval for their "brace", and 2) it really isn't possible to get your arm inside their "brace".

Though the fact that it is adjustable COMBINED with the other two issues may be a third contributing factor to the BATFE deciding that they crossed the (ill defined) line with their design. Kinda like the GCA "points" system blocking the import of cheap handguns with too many of the "wrong" features.

I like my shockwave brace. It has a fixed length and doesn't really look like a stock due to its blade-like shape. Even though it can be braced against your shoulder, it isn't designed to be very comfortable if used that way, which (theoretically) would discourage it being used that way.
 
I think the problem with the Honey Badger is that the "brace" is adjustable for length. Every other brace I've seen is fixed. The Honey Badger brace may as well be an adjustable carbine stock. I'll bet a dollar that's how the ATF saw it.

I'd take that bet.

First, I have personally never seen a fixed arm brace on an AR-style pistol, and my buddy and FFL is a Class 5 manufacturer and he builds them routinely. Everyone I have ever seen adjusts the same way as a Mag-Pul stock, by way of example. So the adjustability of the Honey Badger cannot be the issue.

Someone above said something about an error in measurements. That might be true, I don't know, but I understood the Honey Badger's brace to be solid such that one cannot easily get an arm into it, if at all. If it is solid then it's not a brace for an arm, it's a stock.

I could go on and on about the legal niceties of this issue but suffice it to say the ATF regulations are poorly written, even more poorly understood, and it is for precisely that reason that firearms like the Shockwave and AR pistol exist.

A small but amusing correction for BB7 is in order:

Originally Posted by BB57 View Post

..........
Ideally, how it works is that a law is introduced in both houses, reconciled in both houses to resolve any differences, and the reconciled bill is then passed on both houses.

Once that happens the law is sent to the cognizant federal agency to write the regulations that will implement the law...............

One fun omission there, just for clarity:

and the reconciled bill is then passed on both houses.

Right in here is where that reconciled bill has to go to the President for signature in order to become a law :)

Once that happens the law is sent to the cognizant federal agency
 
I'd take that bet.

Someone above said something about an error in measurements. That might be true, I don't know, but I understood the Honey Badger's brace to be solid such that one cannot easily get an arm into it, if at all. If it is solid then it's not a brace for an arm, it's a stock.

My inside source said the entire issue came about because of the (incorrect) manner by which the ATF measured the length from the trigger to the end of the butt plate. By the ATF's own rule, it should have been measured "in line with the bore." Instead, the measurement was made diagonally to the lower end of the butt plate, which gave a measurement longer than allowed--20 inches I think he said. It was not a question of it being a collapsible or folding stock, just an arbitrary measurement incorrectly applied.

So basically, the ATF did not follow its own rule and screwed up.
 
Someone above said something about an error in measurements. That might be true, I don't know, but I understood the Honey Badger's brace to be solid such that one cannot easily get an arm into it, if at all. If it is solid then it's not a brace for an arm, it's a stock.

If that's true then what's this? It's solid, not readily adjustable, but it is adjustable, and an arm obviously doesn't fit inside.

p_100022567_2.jpg


Is it a stock? That's the KAK shockwave blade stabilizer brace.
 
From reading the material provided, it appears that the ATF doesn't buy the pistol brace as such. If they re-submitted with an actual functioning brace, then maybe this would go away.


Well, the brace looks like a buttstock to me. The ATF seems to require any approved pistol brace leave extensive bruising to the shoulder of a user firing it that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Time to amend the NFA. Remove restrictions on SBRs and "sawed off shotguns." As well as silencers. They are not unreasonable threats to society.


Lots of luck with that one. After the shooting at congressmen playing baseball occurred, the hearing protection act went in file 13. Probably forever. People carrying ARs to protests for no good reason probably killed the rest of potential gun regulations favorable to us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hi folks! Regardless of which side of the fence you are sitting on in this issue, the letter has been officially posted today, and the 14 day clock (I know, should be 90 days) for comments begins today!
 
Back
Top