Clearing double feed problems

I've always understood that most semi-auto pistols will not allow the extractor to snap over the case rim of a round dropped in the chamber. I've always considered them as a controlled feed where the extractor groove is engaged immediately as the round comes out of the mag. I agree with BB57 that this procedure is a solution looking for a non-existent problem.
 
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I've always understood that most semi-auto pistols will not allow the extractor to snap over the case rim of a round dropped in the chamber. I've always considered them as a controlled feed where the extractor groove is engaged immediately as the round comes out of the mag. I agree with BB57 that this procedure is a solution looking for a non-existent problem.

What is the spring needed for then? :cool:
 
I’ve always questioned the wisdom of staging a double feed drill. It comes very close to falling into the category of destructive testing - in some designs far more than others.

Most semi auto pistols use extractors that are not designed to snap over the cartridge rim. Most *can* but it pushes them outside their normal design parameters and induces unnecessary stress and fatigue on the part. In other words, staging a double feed increases the potential for a particular pistol to *have* an actual double feed. Worse, when that double feed occurs it’s because the extractor is failing and is no longer reliably extracting the cartridge.

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Over the last 35 plus years shooting pistols of various types and shooting well over a quarter million rounds, I have had exactly one double feed. That was in a well used and abused pistol with a modified extractor.

In other words, unless you abuse the extractor, there’s no need to focus on double feed drills. And ironically if you are staging double feed drills, you are abusing the extractor and you are creating the need to practice clearing double feeds.

Obviously, the other way the extractor gets abused is deciding to load your pistol “+1” by dropping a round in the chamber rather than feeding it from the magazine and then topping off the magazine. If you do that stop doing that.

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My suspicion is that the whole issue of staging double feeds comes from firearms instructors and trainers who want to show off their prowess in clearing another type of malfunction and have something else to teach - even though said malfunction is virtually unheard of in a properly designed and maintained pistol using quality ammunition.

I'm going to disagree. I've seen both failure to extract double feeds and true double feeds where the magazine releases two rounds.

It does happen and anyone who is serious about self defense shooting needs to practice every now and then.
 
I'm going to disagree. I've seen both failure to extract double feeds and true double feeds where the magazine releases two rounds.

It does happen and anyone who is serious about self defense shooting needs to practice every now and then.

I’m going to suggest you focus on better quality pistols and/or magazines if you are “serious about self defense”.

Seriously.

Would you accept a self defense load that does not feed with virtually 100% reliability in your personal self defense weapon? I won’t.

I put at least 200 rounds of my intended self defense load through my self defense handgun spread evenly between my primary and backup magazines with zero failures before I feel comfortable using it. I backstop that with regular expenditure of my carry rounds so over time I have several hundred rounds down range with no failures.

If I *have* a failure, I find out *why* and address the failure.
To eliminate the failure rather than living with a known failure mode that will require immediate action when an otherwise preventable jam occurs.

Why? Despite what all those tacti-cool instructors push, the FBI data is very clear that 75% of all agent involved shoots were over in 3 shots or less fired at 3 yards or less in 3 seconds or less. In other words in 3/4 of the shoots agents were involved in, there simply wasn’t time to deal with a malfunction. It really is an example of an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

Now… that said:

1. I practice tap-rack-bang drills as the primary immediate action drill if something goes wrong, just on general principle; and

2. I practice dropping the magazine and clearing the weapon as the next up immediate action if tap-rack-bang fails, again on general principle.

As for double feed drills, #2 covers the extremely unlikely occurrence of a double feed when using quality ammo in a quality magazine in a properly maintained quality pistol - and it covers that contingency *without* abusing the extractor in the pistol by staging a double feed.
 
I’m going to suggest you focus on better quality pistols and/or magazines if you are “serious about self defense”.

Seriously.

Would you accept a self defense load that does not feed with virtually 100% reliability in your personal self defense weapon? I won’t.

I put at least 200 rounds of my intended self defense load through my self defense handgun spread evenly between my primary and backup magazines with zero failures before I feel comfortable using it. I backstop that with regular expenditure of my carry rounds so over time I have several hundred rounds down range with no failures.

If I *have* a failure, I find out *why* and address the failure.
To eliminate the failure rather than living with a known failure mode that will require immediate action when an otherwise preventable jam occurs.

Why? Despite what all those tacti-cool instructors push, the FBI data is very clear that 75% of all agent involved shoots were over in 3 shots or less fired at 3 yards or less in 3 seconds or less. In other words in 3/4 of the shoots agents were involved in, there simply wasn’t time to deal with a malfunction. It really is an example of an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

Now… that said:

1. I practice tap-rack-bang drills as the primary immediate action drill if something goes wrong, just on general principle; and

2. I practice dropping the magazine and clearing the weapon as the next up immediate action if tap-rack-bang fails, again on general principle.

As for double feed drills, #2 covers the extremely unlikely occurrence of a double feed when using quality ammo in a quality magazine in a properly maintained quality pistol - and it covers that contingency *without* abusing the extractor in the pistol by staging a double feed.

In the real world guns are mechanical devices that DO from time to time have failures, be they mechanical or operator induced.

My experience is with a large law enforcement department's issued duties weapons or authorized private purchase weapons.

For the most part Beretta 92s or Beretta Compacts, 2nd and 3rd Gen Smith Autos, Glocks and most recently Smith MPs.

Magazines are either factory or for the older Smiths and Berettas Mecgar.

Almost all of these weapons will have 2 thousand rounds through them if a department gun, or in some cases be brand new if a private gun.

SO in other words no junk guns, no junk magazines.

ADD as for the FBI numbers, remember those are averages. Both North Hollywood and San Bernardino happened.
 
I did not intend for this to become a debate. My take is that the rapid clearing of a foreseeable malfunction, even if it be a rare one, should be performed to confirm the pistol works as it should and the operator knows what to do. In the case of my firearm, which is a reputable brand and model, it failed. I do appreciate the concern and have acknowledged it is hard on the gun. Treat your guns how you choose to. I have guns I would not use in this way, they are not ones I wear on my hip on or off duty. I do appreciate your information on this and I think I have it resolved.
 
I did not intend for this to become a debate. My take is that the rapid clearing of a foreseeable malfunction, even if it be a rare one, should be performed to confirm the pistol works as it should and the operator knows what to do. In the case of my firearm, which is a reputable brand and model, it failed. I do appreciate the concern and have acknowledged it is hard on the gun. Treat your guns how you choose to. I have guns I would not use in this way, they are not ones I wear on my hip on or off duty. I do appreciate your information on this and I think I have it resolved.

Have you found the problem then? We stopped at this moment:

The extractor does move but appears to not have sufficient range of movement to do what it needs to. So i think my next step would be to remove the extractor and spring, then put the extractor back in without the spring and see if it is the spring limiting the range of motion, or the extractor.
 
So I sent the pistol off to customer service and just got it back today. C.S. said they replaced the extractor. My findings are the same as before, they fixed nothing.


What do I do next? Is any reps from Smith & Wesson here that are the go to guy for fixing things like this? How about other Smiths that do great work.

You are trying to fix a false problem created by the wild imagination of your so-called "trainer".
 
You are trying to fix a false problem created by the wild imagination of your so-called "trainer".

You are not helping.

Even the extractor is not designed to work this way, it MUST be able to ride over the rim to clear malfunction.
"Muzzle loading rod" times are already gone.
 
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