.40 vs 9mm

I keep reading that the .40 S&W is going the way of button shoes because of advancements in bullet designed has improved the 9mms performance to nearly .40 levels.
Why haven’t .40 caliber bullets been designed along the same lines?

The technology and design is there…but with sales on a downhill slope the R&D funding plus manufacturing expenses argue against it. Bottom line…why spend the investment with too little return on that investment expected.

The 9mm is being rediscovered by police (it mostly was beaten out by the 40 from the early '90s) because it's cheaper to train with (both ammo cost and mild report/recoil). The 9mm miracle bullet nonsense is intended for marketing.

I have a few boxes of 2022 'LE Only' Hornady Critical Duty #90225. It is pretty much indistinguishable in terminal performance on jackrabbits and coyotes from the Super WhizBang JHPs of the past 30 years, with the cool-looking red ball in the hollow point notwithstanding.

.40 is a bit too much

For lots of folks. Recoil wise it is for me.

Funny, a gun shop owner friend of mine showed me a mint 1006 the other day, adopted by the FBI way back, who then switched to the .40 because the 10mm was too much of a beast.

Now they are back to the 9mm, like the rest of the world.

You give me a .40 I'm selling it as fast as I can.

Send it my way!

biku324 said:

The 9mm is being rediscovered by police because it's cheaper to train with, both ammo cost and mild report and recoil. The miracle bullet nonsense is intended for marketing.

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100% my experience as well.

I was in the FBI when the .40 was adopted and I was there for the return of the 9mm. I was a firearms instructor as an additional duty and saw the internal manuevering as well.

9mm is cheaper. Each agent fires about a 1000 rounds per year. Quarterly quals, which include drills and practice runs. 12,000 agents times 1000 is easy even for me - 12 million rounds a year. Now add in Quantico where new agents shoot about 10k rounds in the academy and SWAT and HRT go through ammo like its air and pretty soon you’re up to a fair amount of munitions. Even a small savings per box adds up, and even then the powers that be want to spend that ammo budget on other stuff.

Its the same at other departments. 9mm is cheaper, usually works fine, is easier on guns, and kicks less.

I worked a lot of .40 shootings - mostly by tribal police officers. It always worked great. It still does.

smithman 10 said:

Funny, a gun shop owner friend of mine showed me a mint 1006 the other day, adopted by the FBI way back, who then switched to the .40 because the 10mm was too much of a beast.

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Commonly held misconception.

The FBI never issued full-power 10mm. The gun guys started with the 10mm cartridge and a 180 bullet and shot it into gel at increasing velocities until it did what they wanted. That was 950 fps.

As much as the internet loves the idea of 1076s (not 1006s) crashing to the ground while agents shook their dainty wrists at the awesome recoil, it just never happened.

Someone later realized the same result (180/950) could be had in a round that fit into 9mm sized guns and the .40 was born. By then the 1076 had been recalled for mechanical reasons and we went to the .40 S&W.

Don't be screwing with internet 'everyone knows' lore.

As an aside, I had an issued 10mm right up until I retired. A really fun one.

When I first attended FLETC in the late '80s we were told by a firearms instructor there (believe it or don't)...that the reason the FBI had picked the 10mm following the Miami Massacre was due to that they had already denigrated the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm previously and couldn't be seen as eating their words. I'm not saying that's true or false...just what we were told.

I will say that people and other law enforcement agencies put a lot of faith and credence to the FBI's choice of ammunition. Not to say that it's misplaced but the FBI has a specific set of needs and criteria they've decided on when looking for ammunition...which may or may not be relevant to the needs and requirements of others.

SnidelyWhiplash said:

When I first attended FLETC in the late '80s we were told by a firearms instructor there (believe it or don't)...that the reason the FBI had picked the 10mm following the Miami Massacre was due to that they had already denigrated the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm previously and couldn't be seen as eating their words. I'm not saying that's true or false...just what we were told.

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It's quite believable given that US government agencies at all levels have a rabid hatred of admitting mistakes and going back on previous decisions. It threatens their illusion of control.

Now, for doing U-turns on large expensive projects and doing it in the public eye, you have to go to the UK. Look up the debacle of the Queen Elizabeth class "aircraft carriers". You'll soon see why I put it in quotes.

My mistake

sigp220.45 said:

Commonly held misconception.

The FBI never issued full-power 10mm. The gun guys started with the 10mm cartridge and a 180 bullet and shot it into gel at increasing velocities until it did what they wanted. That was 950 fps.

As much as the internet loves the idea of 1076s (not 1006s) crashing to the ground while agents shook their dainty wrists at the awesome recoil, it just never happened.

Someone later realized the same result (180/950) could be had in a round that fit into 9mm sized guns and the .40 was born. By then the 1076 had been recalled for mechanical reasons and we went to the .40 S&W.

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I guess I misread the number on the box. If I remember correctly, the Virginia State Police also adopted the 10mm FBI pistol, only to also give it up.

SnidelyWhiplash said:

When I first attended FLETC in the late '80s we were told by a firearms instructor there (believe it or don't)...that the reason the FBI had picked the 10mm following the Miami Massacre was due to that they had already denigrated the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm previously and couldn't be seen as eating their words. I'm not saying that's true or false...just what we were told.

I will say that people and other law enforcement agencies put a lot of faith and credence to the FBI's choice of ammunition. Not to say that it's misplaced but the FBI has a specific set of needs and criteria they've decided on when looking for ammunition...which may or may not be relevant to the needs and requirements of others.

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In the immediate aftermath of the 4/11/86 shootout the Bureau approved .45 pistols (645s) and 185 grain Silvertips, which were later replaced with 230 grain Hydra Shoks. 9mm ammo changed from 115 grain Silvertips to 147 grain JHPs. I came in in 1991 and was issued a 226 and 147 grain Hydra Shoks. By then the 4506 and 4516 were approved, as well as the Sig P220. I bought a 220 on my Dad’s FFL, qualified, gave back the 226, and carried the 220, pictured above, for 25 years.

The 10mm was seen as a compromise between two factions at the FTU - 9mm vs .45 ACP.

There was once an extensive Privately Owned Weapon (POW) list of guns you could buy and carry. At one time I carried the oldest gun on active duty in the Bureau - non-Registered Magnum 61115, born in 1940.

The list was pared down over the years, and its a Glock World in the Bu now.

Anyway, the .45 has a long history in the Bu, from the one Charles Winstead borrowed from the Chicago office to put down Dillinger to the 1911s used by HRT and SWAT until recently. I retired in 6/2016, and word was already out that no more .45s would be approved or grandfathered in after the end if the year.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. .40s are great.

This conversation can evolve in many ways. Many of us have had most every facet of this conversation dozens of times over a couple decades or more.

I keep reading that the .40 S&W is going the way of button shoes

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Not sure I have ever heard of button shoes but if you are asking if the .40 is going to be extinct... then don't lose sleep because this won't happen in your lifetime.

There are perfectly great reasons to buy, own and shoot .40cal handguns, we could argue that some of those reasons are less so now than they were in the mid-1990's but with many dozens of cartridges in existence, the .40cal is still in the top-10 in use.

I have a couple of phenomenal handguns chambered for this round, I shoot and enjoy them regularly and I'll be happy to add others if I find what I like for a price that works.

Hold on, lets slow down here. You are telling me button shoes are not in style anymore?....

Larry

smithman 10 said:

I guess I misread the number on the box. If I remember correctly, the Virginia State Police also adopted the 10mm FBI pistol, only to also give it up.

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Well, the NMSP gave up their 357 Sigs for 9mm - it was about ammo & training costs.

I have a couple of .40's, a Glock 23 and a S&W 4013. I've had a lot of fun shooting both of them.

The .40 is what it is, there are certainly better calibers and there are certainly worse ones...

It's one of the calibers I keep a large amount of on hand. Matter of fact the pricing on this round is really down right now...may be time to add to the storage!

As it usually is, given time, someone will discover it as the new magic bullet once again...

I like .40 S&W, never had any problems shooting it, and it hits harder than any 9mm except .357 Sig, and that one only because it's being fired out of a .40 case.

Fishinfool said:

Hold on, lets slow down here. You are telling me button shoes are not in style anymore?....

Larry

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Whoa...who are you? Buster Brown?

I had just read that when police started looking at shooting data, terminal ballistic data showed an average of 2 shots in the thoracic area for the 9mm, the .40 and the.45.

Since there was no apparent difference in lethality, it was hard to justify the added expense and reduced capacity that you get with the .40 and .45.

I would agree that bullet design added to evening out the 9mm’s performance.

It makes me wonder if the .40 S&W will see a slight resurgence due to the popularity of the 10mm (?).