.38 Special +P/.38 Spl. +P+ ARTICLE

Here is a link to a very informative and interesting article on the RevolverGuy web site. I came across a reference to it today and read it. It is a good discussion of history/pressures/dates/etc. for the.38+P scope of ammunition. I learned that the FBI Load really started as the St. Louis Police load! Never heard that before.: All About The .38 Special +P and .38 Special +P+ – RevolverGuy.Com

It really explains the answer in great detail to the frequently asked question of "Can I shoot +P in my......"

This was our duty ammo in the early ‘80s and when I was forced to use it in a deadly confrontation it worked. My duty weapon was a S&W 4” Combat Masterpiece.

That's a great website, too. Lots of interesting stuff there. Thanks for the link.

Good article. The .38 Special +P+ 110 grain JHP was known as the “Treasury Load” as agents of the Department of the Treasury and the US Secret Service were supplied with it prior to transitioning to self-loading pistols. I still have a case of Winchester .38 +P+.

My 2.5” Colt Python I’ve had for thirty years loves the round. The faster than normal rate of twist the Python uses is considered best for heavier bullets but mine shoots it like a laser.

While no longer catalogued…Winchester makes a 110 grain JHP in .357 Magnum equivalent to the Treasury Load .38 Special +P+.

There is a separate article on that site about the Treasury load as I recall, you just have to look for it.

Yeah- That's a great article to link for know it alls who say S&W never marked guns for +P+ ammo. Look at end note #18.

Alk8944 said:

Here is a link to a very informative and interesting article on the RevolverGuy web site. I came across a reference to it today and read it. It is a good discussion of history/pressures/dates/etc. for the.38+P scope of ammunition. I learned that the FBI Load really started as the St. Louis Police load! Never heard that before.: All About The .38 Special +P and .38 Special +P+ – RevolverGuy.Com

It really explains the answer in great detail to the frequently asked question of "Can I shoot +P in my......"

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Thank you soooooooo very much for this article. I copied the link to add to my reloading thread. It proved my point better than I ever could. Still don't think the naysayers will understand my point even after this article but, what is the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, you just can't make them drink."

I have a small batch of the 1980s 147gr .38 Special +P+ intended to mimic a 9mm (so 950-1000fps). If I do shoot some, it'll be out of my 1950s H-D. I'm sure my K frames can handle it just fine, but that's not really the point. There are guns designated to be used and consumed, and there are guns designated to be cared for and handed down to the next generation. I try not to comingle the two categories.

Overall a good article. However, being an old coot who lived through all the sturm & drang, the alleged fear of "militarization of the police" didn't exist back when +P and other than RNL bullets were being considered. In fact, one of the major objections by the ACLU and others was that use of expanding bullets "violated the Geneva Convention" (wrong) and were "cruel and unusual punishment" banned by the Constitution.

I don't recall when I was able to read one of the hold harmless agreements for the use of +P+ ammo, but it was interesting. It warned of accelerated wear and raised the possibility of injury or death if the firearm failed catastrophically. The lawyers were covering the corporate butts, but given the varying levels of firearm inspection and service in all the various entities, not a bad idea. When we adopted self loading service pistols, I checked with a pioneer in their use and discovered they had NO preventive maintenance program. They'd shoot 'em till they broke.

The limited amount of +P+ ammo I did manage to get my hands on was pretty much the same as +P. However, it might have been surplused as not meeting contract requirements.

Thom_44 said:

No, it doesnt prove any point. A blanket from Ruger saying "use all you want in RUGER revolvers" doesnt translate to any other brand.

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The survey was done in 1986. What .38 Special revolvers did Ruger sell in 1986? The Security Six, Blackhawk and the brand new GP100.

Thom_44 said:

Besides we all know about how the Colt Walker revolver liked to explode at random times right? Well what most people dont comprehend is that it was a two part issue.

The cylinder was made from a new type of steel, and the colt factory had issues with quality.

The ammunition was the second, and main problem. The powder charge was massive, and with round balls was safe.

The militaries change to pointed conical bullets has been lodged as the main culprit in the guns blowing. It seems that some of the users of the revolver admit to loading the pointed bullets upside down for easier loading. Also, its possible the premade factory cumbustible cartridges contained bullets loaded wrongly.

It seems with the bullet is loaded point down, it REALLY increases the chamber pressure, and with enough use, and a cylinder that didnt have the best steel/heat treating.... KABOOM... and you have the new "one hand charlie" rolling on the ground playing "wheres my hand"

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Colt didn't make the 1847 Walker revolver as he had no factory at that point. They were made under contract by Eli Whitney, Jr. A fine point I know...but still valid.

I helped with research for the Revolverguy article.
[For those searching for the +P+ article, we did later document that the Federal 125 grain JHP and JSP were indeed +P+ designated cartridges for the Illinois State Police and the Michigan State Police.]

We knew that the Q4030 and high speed .38 Specials from Winchester and other companies preceded the +P designation. Later, we found that the original Q4030 Winchester 158 grain LSWCHP dated a couple of years earlier than we could previously document -- 1968. The FBI adopted it in 1972.


I date my (MS) WSPD pre-plus P yellow box to 1973/74
SPD = St. Louis Police Department
MS = Multiple Service
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Winchester .38 Special 158 grain Lead Hollow Point W38SPD

WINCHESTER ®

These Winchester cartridges are produced under exacting conditions for superior accuracy and performance. Non-corrosive primers and smokeless powder insure long barrel life. These cartridges are loaded to higher velocity and higher pressure than conventional 38 Special cartridges and are designed for use only in modern alloy steel revolvers. “WARNING—Continuous use in aluminum cylinder or aluminum frame revolvers is not recommended. If doubt exists as to safe use in your firearm check with the manufacturer.” We warrant the exercise of reasonable care in manufacture of these cartridges, but make no other warranty expressed or implied.

Muzzle Velocity 1060 ft./sec. Muzzle Energy 395 ft. lbs.

SnidelyWhiplash said:

Colt didn't make the 1847 Walker revolver as he had no factory at that point. They were made under contract by Eli Whitney, Jr. A fine point I know...but still valid.

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true. I am a descendant of Eli

Thom_44 said:

This was a first for the industry, and it didn’t last long. Since there was no SAAMI standard for +P+, and some non-SAAMI manufacturers were actually pushing the boundaries of Proof Loads with their +P+ loadings, a marking like this was the equivalent of writing a blank check. The unique marking quickly disappeared from the Model 640, likely at the bequest of the Legal Department in Springfield, and the gun was thereafter referred to as a .38 +P-
....

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The "+P+" marked 640 that I once owned had a serial # CEN77XX. So unless S&W skipped past a whole lot of numbers, there were more "+P+" 640s than is generally believed. I've seen one with a CEN78XX serial # listed on GB.

Their legal team had to have cringed at the 1990 catalog that stated the 640 being "Rated For +P+", while the guns were marked "Tested......"

[For those searching for the +P+ article, we did later document that the Federal 125 grain JHP and JSP were indeed +P+ designated cartridges for the Illinois State Police and the Michigan State Police.]

SG-688, do you recall the ballistics of these loads? I have some older boxes of the MSP JSP version, a received from a trooper friend of mine.

SG-688 said:

I helped with research for the Revolverguy article.

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You did great work. Thank you for doing good research and producing quality content.

prescobd said:

[For those searching for the +P+ article, we did later document that the Federal 125 grain JHP and JSP were indeed +P+ designated cartridges for the Illinois State Police and the Michigan State Police.]

SG-688, do you recall the ballistics of these loads? I have some older boxes of the MSP JSP version, a received from a trooper friend of mine.

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For those wondering why the famously 9 mm armed Illinois State Police would buy +P+ .38: Former Illinois Burea of Investigation agents kept their 2 1/2 inch Model 66 revolvers when they combined with the ISP detective section.

I've written before that I asked Federal customer service about LE stamped ammunition. The rep had no idea it existed.

==============================

March, 1979 American Rifleman Dope Bag by William C. Davis, Jr.

The Winchester 04070 load and its Federal Cartridge Corp. equivalent,
designated 38F-TD (Treasury Dept.), develop an instrumental velocity at
15 ft. of 1020 f.p.s. from a 2" barrel.

Federal also produces similar loads with 125-gr. bullets at a 15 ft instrumental velocity of 1015 f.p.s. from a 4" revolver in both hollow-point and soft-point configurations, with nonserrated jackets.

The hollow-point 125-gr. load made for the Illinois State Police has the designation 38EIL, and the 125-gr. soft-point load made for the Michigan State Police is designated 38J-MI.

These Federal loadings have double-entry headstamps with the manufacturer's symbol (FC) and the letters LE.

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In a 1992 article, Federal rep Shep Kelly wrote that +P+ specification for Federal was 22,800 PSI, PSI not being interchangeable with CUP used by other manufacturers.

17,000 PSI for "normal" .38 and 18,500 PSI for +P.

Return Of The Combat Magnum - American Handgunner

A snippet from this article. I think Bill knew that it would be more difficult to get LEOs to train with the more stout 357 rounds and that it was more wear and tear on the revolvers. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't shoot full power 357s in the 357 revolver, it just means that it was easier to train with 38s.

I think this is true with most modern 38s OF GOOD QUALITY. You can train with lighter rounds but still use stouter, 1000+ fps, rounds in a good quality 38 revolver for self defense.

Jordan envisioned the Combat Magnum being carried with .357 Mag. loads while using .38 Special loads for practice. Ammo manufactures are already making +P and +P+ ammo so there must be a desire for it. I just have a feeling that some ammo manufactures and guns makers are afraid of lawsuits.

WR Moore said:

Overall a good article. However, being an old coot who lived through all the sturm & drang, the alleged fear of "militarization of the police" didn't exist back when +P and other than RNL bullets were being considered. In fact, one of the major objections by the ACLU and others was that use of expanding bullets "violated the Geneva Convention" (wrong) and were "cruel and unusual punishment" banned by the Constitution.

I don't recall when I was able to read one of the hold harmless agreements for the use of +P+ ammo, but it was interesting. It warned of accelerated wear and raised the possibility of injury or death if the firearm failed catastrophically. The lawyers were covering the corporate butts, but given the varying levels of firearm inspection and service in all the various entities, not a bad idea. When we adopted self loading service pistols, I checked with a pioneer in their use and discovered they had NO preventive maintenance program. They'd shoot 'em till they broke.

The limited amount of +P+ ammo I did manage to get my hands on was pretty much the same as +P. However, it might have been surplused as not meeting contract requirements.

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Yeah, a friend of mine started with the CHP in the late 70's, and his approved off-duty weapon was a M60. He was required to use the issued .38SPL 110gr +P+ load in his M60 for carry and Quals. FWIW, he carried .357MAG on-duty in his service revolver when he worked Field Offices where it was stocked, and the .38SPL +P+ load when that was all they stocked. He said that ammunition inventories could vary among Field Offices. For example, when the 10mm was an option for off-duty, he saw one Field Office who stocked Winchester 175gr STHP for the officers who wished to carry 10mm off-duty to use for both carry and Quals.

Anyway, since his older M60 wasn't listed as being rated for +P+ loads, I asked him how it was checked and maintained. He shrugged, and said that if he had a problem with it, he'd just have one of the CHP armorers service it. Last I knew, he was still carrying that old M60 in his retirement, and still using that 110gr +P+ load.

We had an early M640 Centennial snub which had the bottom of the frame's cylinder window marked with “Tested For +P+”. When we later happened to receive 20+K rounds of Winchester .38SPL 110gr +P+ from another agency who was transitioning from revolvers to pistols, and getting rid of their revolver ammo, I put a lot of it to good use running it through that older training M640.

Fastbolt said:

For example, when the 10mm was an option for off-duty, he saw one Field Office who stocked Winchester 175gr STHP for the officers who wished to carry 10mm off-duty to use for both carry and Quals.

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Anyone choosing to carry that would be well armed indeed.