An issue… help me out with this. Elephant hunting?

I don't hunt animals (just don't care for the taste) but I understand the instinctive "thrill of the chase". I've "hunted" hundreds of "just gotta' have it" firearms over the last 60 years - most of which are unfired by me or shot sparingly and now reside in a safe. So I kinda' relate to trophy hunting, I guess.
Ed

SmithNut said:

What country was your plains game hunt?

We did ours in 1996 in South Africa, up north of JoBerg at a ranch called Mafegini (sp?) Safari Lodge. It has about 700 hectares (approv 1730 acres) and a lot of animals.....

Good times....

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South Africa with Numzaan Safaris. Next one will also be there.
took an Impala, A Blesbok, and a Zebra. I shed a tear over the Zebra. I also hit a Gemsbok. In Africa, if you draw blood, you pay, so that miss cost me $$.


All taken with a Remington 760 pump. The Africans had never seen one.

SmithNut said:

That's an impressive resume, thanks for sharing......
Only two trips for me, the plains game hunt mentioned above was in 1996, followed by a Tanzania dangerous game hunt in 2000, out in the Selous.
Very interesting country, lots of natural geography, lots of game (and tse-tse flies.. ).

Shot two cape buffalo there and a handful of plains game, even got to cull some Zebras as the head man in the camp was starting to shut down for the season, interesting- he was one of the trackers in the movie "In the blood".

.............SmithNut

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The Selous is a fabulous area, we had buffalo around our tents after dark, theory was they felt safer? Had to zip up tent and not leave anything out or hyenas would take it. They would scratch around the tent at night.

While hunting is no longer for me because of different reasons, I want to complement everyone for being civil in this discussion. I am a member of other forums where people insult and in some cases threaten other members for having a different opinion on matters. I have noticed how everyone is civil and polite in this forum. Thank you gentlemen.

Bald1 said:

I’ll say this. In the USA hunters have done more to increase the populations of animals than any animal rights group. That’s a fact. Even fish.

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Always thought it interesting that folks don't apply the same negative attention to fishing as they do hunting. Tricking the fish into thinking it's getting food, piercing it with a hook or spear and then hauling it out of the water to suffocate or have its head bashed in?

I suppose it might be different if fish could scream?

I hunted for 50 years in the US. Deer, tree rats, rabbits and turkey. Everything I killed got eaten. BTW, wild turkeys in the mnts of Va. are way better than store bought.

Hunting has been part of my life forever. Never been on an elephant hunt, and don't know if I could shoot one. Killing an animal is always a bittersweet moment. Sure, I'm a meat eater, and animals have to die to feed me, but I still appreciate their nobility and try to respect them, by taking them ethically, and legally. But I almost gave up hunting 3 years ago, when I gut-shot a buck. I can still hear his screams, and have had few nightmares where his crying wakes me up. So, there's that. I guess as long as I'm not a vegan, I'll probably keep hunting, but I think about that buck, a lot.

I've never hunted Africa and probably never will. My understanding though is that if sport hunting on African species did not exist, it's likely that many of these animals would no longer exist either. The African countries and the people who live there would have no reason to not eat, poach for body parts, or rid themselves of the trouble these animals can cause to their livelihood's. Without the benefits of sport hunting to the national and local economies across Africa, these folks would exploit them in other more destructive ways. More extinctive ways. If only we could find a similarly constructive way to preserve the Amazon rain forest.

There are always two sides to an issue and both sides usually have some merit.

For example large animals like elephants can destroy crops and the occasional rogue will stomp on some villagers. But that’s also an artifact of excessive human population, loss of habit and encroachment of humans on large animal populations that brings them into conflict.

Consider for example our history with the buffalo. They literally roamed nearly the entire country in pre Colombian times. Now there’s just a few isolated, managed herds. On the other hand, without tourism interest and ranchers catering to a small niche meat market, there would be even fewer.

There’s a balance there that must be maintained.

My problem with African hunting is the graft and corruption involved in much of it. Ideally the hunting itself would be directed at managing the animal populations and the fees would be used to fund anti poaching efforts and sale of poached animal products on the black market.

——-

Closer to home I have no objection to eating what you hunt or hunting for necessary population control. I do have issues with managing populations strictly for trophy hunting.

Hunter's and fishermen do way more to conserve animals than any animal rights groups ever will .
I have hunted my entire life in Louisiana and our tax dollars on arms , ammo , hunting / fishing gear all support or State Wildlife & Fisheries Conservation Programs .
We want to ensure our wildlife and fish are properly managed and the animals not wiped out by hunting or over crowding ... The land can only support so many animals ... the herds get too large ... then they die from hunger and diesease .
It is a somewhat complicated system but hunters play the biggest role in animal conservation .

I live in Louisiana and we don't have an Elephant season ...
So we are doing our part !
Gary

375hh1973 said:

As far as the tusks...

A buddy of mine who is a Dr shot a big bull elephant. Like you said, villagers got the meat, Doc got the memories but no tusks...

Except 6 months later I run into Doc at the gun club and he says, hey check this out- Pulls me aside, looks around all secretive and shows me a pic of his tusks in his trophy room.

When you got the $$$ everything is possible

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Sometimes they make fiberglass replicas of your tusks for display. Kinds like they do with trophy sailfish now.

375hh1973 said:

As far as the tusks...

A buddy of mine who is a Dr shot a big bull elephant. Like you said, villagers got the meat, Doc got the memories but no tusks...

Except 6 months later I run into Doc at the gun club and he says, hey check this out- Pulls me aside, looks around all secretive and shows me a pic of his tusks in his trophy room.

When you got the $$$ everything is possible

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Not sure where he hunted but in some cases African countries will allow hunting of certain species, that are not importable to the US under CITIES, or their export quota for that year is exhausted. Always obtain your CITIES permit for species that have low limits in advance.

I've never been but one of my best friends went two years ago, he says he's going back.

If you have a Barnes #4 reloading manual,look at .416 Remington Magnum,That's me! Great hunt for a total of 33 days in Africa(includes Victoria Falls).I fed a village with my elephant meat.

375hh1973 said:

As far as the tusks...

A buddy of mine who is a Dr shot a big bull elephant. Like you said, villagers got the meat, Doc got the memories but no tusks...

Except 6 months later I run into Doc at the gun club and he says, hey check this out- Pulls me aside, looks around all secretive and shows me a pic of his tusks in his trophy room.

When you got the $$$ everything is possible

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Presently, Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe allow the legal hunting of elephant and export of ivory through CITES permit. South Africa in the greater Kruger allows elephant hunting as does Mozambique but the ivory is not exportable to the U.S. presently. I find it unlikely the doctor would face jail, fines and ruination when there are the above listed countries where you can legally hunt, kill an elephant and legally export the ivory with CITES permit?

Have been to Africa a couple of times: 1997 Mozambique, South Africa and recently Limpopo Greater Kruger area. I have taken buffalo, hippo and numerous plains game. I find it interesting that African countries to not dictate how we manage our game populations here in the U.S., yet we and the European countries are quite happy to dictate how they are to manage their wildlife? A balance must be maintained and hunting is a very viable tool.

junglefighter said:

If you have a Barnes #4 reloading manual,look at .416 Remington Magnum,That's me! Great hunt for a total of 33 days in Africa(includes Victoria Falls).I fed a village with my elephant meat.

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Long ago I owned a Remington Big Game Synthetic rifle that was chambered in the .416 Remington Magnum cartridge. I owned it, sold it to a friend who hated shooting it, so he sold it to another friend, he hated it too (both of these two gents went to Tanzania with me in 2000). I ended up with it again and it was with us as a back up in Tanzania.

Our PH traveled in from another country and he didn't have a rifle with him (yeah.... really). So I told him he could use the .416 as the three of us had .375 H&H Winchesters, the Remington was there as a back up.

In sorting through things before hitting the bush, the PH looked the Remington over and decided not to use it as it was push feed chambering, versus our Winchesters that had controlled round feed.

When the hunt was over I took the .416 home and sold it at the local pawn shop.

I'll say one thing about the cartridge, it kicked like a mule in that lighter Remington......

Was glad to get rid of it....

gwpercle said:

Hunter's and fishermen do way more to conserve animals than any animal rights groups ever will…

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A fair point. I no longer hunt, and I haven’t fished in years, but I still purchase my hunting and fishing licenses annually, without fail.

Here in the United States, we don't allow elephants to hunt...

Maslow's hierarchy of needs would be great reading for all here, to chew the fat later. That's the crux of the OP's question...

Excellent discussion.

A couple of decades ago I bought a CZ European rifle in .416 Rigby with every intention of going to Africa to hunt Cape buffalo. Then I tore my rotator cuff in a martial arts class. OOPSIE! Buhbye shoulder crunching rifle!!!

Anyway, my dream of hunting Africa went away for other reasons, too, but I still keep my deer and feral hog rifles ready. Both are good for African plains game if I ever make that decision.

In sum, however, it is quite true that hunters and fishermen are responsible for the continued abundance of game here in the USofA and across Africa and around the world. I suppose in Latin America, with their crazy bird hunting, is a part of that very same concept. As a member of the Dallas Safari Club I always attend their annual Expo and it is easy to determine from that small sampling how much money is spent on hunting and that money has a direct, positive impact on the continued existence of the various species.

Sadly, the human species is more fecund than many other large animal species, creating overcrowding for other species as we destroy their habitat. Culling wherever it is necessary is the sad/happy result but the amount of money that is spent in Africa to "sport hunt" keeps the human populations well-fed and often well paid so it is a necessary part of the overall culture.

Bit of a tangent, but this interesting thread has made me think about subjects I don't often consider.

There was an older BBC series shown on PBS years ago called the Private Lives of Plants, narrated by David Attenborough, with their usual excellent photography. Although many will disagree, strongly , I don't see substantive differences between vegetation and animal life. We're all compelled to grow, reproduce, and handle problems. You'll have to watch the series to see what I mean. I can't recommend it highly enough for those interested. I'm sure it's streaming, somewhere. I bet they wanted to call it the Secret Life of Plants, but there was a popular book in 1973 with that name.

Sure, a blade of grass can't shoot a S&W, but plants are not usually as big a pain in the patootie as I sometimes am. Except for maybe poison ivy.

Lot of philosophy for a gun forum, sorry.