Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 Grain +P

BlueLineNYPD said:

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your input.

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You can request this from the author. Good data in here



Summed up:

There have been many reports in the scientific literature, by Dr. Fackler and others, recommending the 158 gr +P LSWCHP as offering adequate performance. Please put this in context for the time that these papers were written in the late 1980's and early 1990's--no denim testing was being performed at that time, no robust expanding JHP's, like the Barnes XPB, Federal Tactical & HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Win Ranger Talon existed. In the proper historical perspective, the 158 gr +P LSWCHP fired out 3-4" barrel revolvers was one of the best rounds available--and it is still a viable choice, as long as you understand its characteristics.

While oversimplified, bare gelatin gives information about best case performance, while 4 layer denim provides data on worst case performance--in reality, the actual performance may be somewhere in between. The four layer denim test is NOT designed to simulate any type of clothing--it is simply an engineering test to assess the ability of a projectile to resist plugging and robustly expand. FWIW, one of the senior engineers at a very respected handgun ammunition manufacturer recently commented that bullets that do well in 4 layer denim testing have invariably worked well in actual officer involved shooting incidents.

With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.

When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work. A sharper edged wadcutter would even be better... Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)




"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes."

Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.

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BlueLineNYPD said:

Speer says that the velocity from a 2” barrel is approximately 860–900 fps with 12” to 13.5” of penetration but I’ve seen many videos stating otherwise.

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I have been doing some testing on different ammo, both factory and hand load using the old reliable 308. One cannot believe what the manufacturers are claiming on the box to be correct or even with factory match grade ammo to be consistent. Factory match grade ammo should be called practice grade. Muzzle velocities vary between shots up to 125 fps, which is not match quality. My 308 handloads vary between 20 and 38 fps depending on the powder used. Take your favorite handgun out to the range and try factory ammo through a chronograph. Also note the length of the test barrel they used. As far as penetration see what happens when a couple of layers of denim and flannel are laid across the target area of the gel block. Don't ever expect the performance on a box of ammo to be what happens when shot through your firearm. It will vary.

eb07 said:

You can request this from the author. Good data in here

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/296413532_Terminal_performance_of_38_Special_and_380_ACP_hollow_point_bullets

Summed up:

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Thank you.. makes a lot of sense

Tabby Lynn said:

I have been doing some testing on different ammo, both factory and hand load using the old reliable 308. One cannot believe what the manufacturers are claiming on the box to be correct or even with factory match grade ammo to be consistent. Factory match grade ammo should be called practice grade. Muzzle velocities vary between shots up to 125 fps, which is not match quality. My 308 handloads vary between 20 and 38 fps depending on the powder used. Take your favorite handgun out to the range and try factory ammo through a chronograph. Also note the length of the test barrel they used. As far as penetration see what happens when a couple of layers of denim and flannel are laid across the target area of the gel block. Don't ever expect the performance on a box of ammo to be what happens when shot through your firearm. It will vary.

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I agree, thanks.

BlueLineNYPD said:

What do you guys recommend for self-defense in a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight — Buffalo Bore 150 grain standard pressure wadcutters or Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P? I’ve been carrying the Gold Dots for years, but I recently saw a few review videos claiming they don’t expand reliably out of a snub-nose.

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BlueLineNYPD said:

What do you guys recommend for self-defense in a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight — Buffalo Bore 150 grain standard pressure wadcutters or Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P? I’ve been carrying the Gold Dots for years, but I recently saw a few review videos claiming they don’t expand reliably out of a snub-nose.

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BlueLineNYPD said:

What do you guys recommend for self-defense in a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight — Buffalo Bore 150 grain standard pressure wadcutters or Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P? I’ve been carrying the Gold Dots for years, but I recently saw a few review videos claiming they don’t expand reliably out of a snub-nose.

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I would not fire a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight - mine blew up in my hand firing .38 specials and S&W would not do anything about it! I will never buy a new weapon from Smith & Wesson!

HARLEY0 said:

I would not fire a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight - mine blew up in my hand firing .38 specials and S&W would not do anything about it! I will never buy a new weapon from Smith & Wesson!

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More details please... ammo type used?

I am three for three. Lucky me I guess. I'll probably buy what you don't as I add to my collection.

As seen in photo I use speer gold dot 135gr +p for defense and I use 158gr lswc hardcast for when im out and about rural

Per SAAMI-Z299.3-2022-Centerfire-Pistol-
Revolver-Approved-12-13-2022, page 168
the acceptable proof load for 38 Special+P (as the plain 38 Special proof was discontinued after +P was developed)
is between 27k and 29.5k psi.
SAAMI's discussion of proof load
methodology is from p.163 to the end,

Based on this info from SAAMI, witch I'm sure lawyers stress to manufacturer's.
To me this sounds like .38 cylinders are actually good for 32-35k psi max. Making proof loads 80-85% of max. If not every .38spl cylinder would have blown-up during proof testing.

My favorite J frame is my great uncles m32 .38 S&W . I carry my reloads because I trust them a lot more than I do factory stuff. I use the Gold Dot 135 grain SB with a stiff dose of Herco. In a 4" the load clocks over 1000 fps , not sure what it is in the short barrel but the bullet expands like it was designed . Not tried anything else that gave the beautiful mushroom that I get with this bullet.

The short barreled Gold Dot 135 Grain round was specifically developed by the NYPD for use in their .38 Special off duty/back up guns.

I will stick with that for as long as I can track some down. Of course now I mostly carry a 9mm so not a big deal.

BlueLineNYPD said:

What do you guys recommend for self-defense in a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight — Buffalo Bore 150 grain standard pressure wadcutters or Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P? I’ve been carrying the Gold Dots for years, but I recently saw a few review videos claiming they don’t expand reliably out of a snub-nose.

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When a police trainer, I had the job of selecting and ordering LE Ammunition off the state bid list for our department. Bullet velocities were specified to be within certain parameters to ensure duty ammunition expanded as advertised. It became obvious that almost half the lot numbers we tested for .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm Luger and .38 Specia were as much as 90 fps below advertised from 4-inch duty barrels. I retired with the "bad habit" of not trusting velocities listed in catalogs and on ammo boxes before carrying them in my personal handguns. So, about ten years back, when looking for a "better .38 bullet" for my snubby, I chronographed six cartridges each from two different lot numbers of Speer 135 grain .38 Spl. Short Barrel (+P) with an advertised 860 fps velocity from 2-inch barrel. Using my Colt Agent 2", I found each lot number to have extreme velocity spread of about 60 fps; one bullet left the barrel at 791 fps. I also shot several of them through a layer of sweat-shirt, T-shirt and Denim into water jugs at 10 feet. I used a bag of old rags to catch the bullets on the back end. The top velocity of any of them was 849 fps; it exhibited .51 caliber expansion. None expanded beyond .39" below 825 fps and only the one going 849 fps expanded fully. Lucky Gunner Labs did an extensive (and way more scientific) study in 2017. They got almost exactly the results I had. The best results I've ever gotten from a 2-inch .38 Special came from the Remington Golden Saber .38 Special. I averaged 886 fps from the same Colt Agent with an average diameter of .58". Fiocchi....I know, not where we normally look for great ammo.... has a .38 special 148 grain JHP standard pressure round advertised at 950 fps (not the one advertised at 750 fps) that has been tested by "Discrete Defender" on YouTube. It appears to work well from 2" barrels. And Fiocchi has a newer 125 grain JHP .38 special in (+P) named Covert-X advertised a 1100 fps from a 4-inch barrel that expanded very well in another YouTube test video.

I've gone to the newer Federal Hydra-shok Deep in several calibers. Usually gives good expansion and adequate penetration in the Gel tests I've seen. I'm also a fan of the Rem. Golden Saber and Hornady Critical Defense. Although I do have WC ammo I could use, I prefer HP's.

HARLEY0 said:

I would not fire a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight - mine blew up in my hand firing .38 specials and S&W would not do anything about it! I will never buy a new weapon from Smith & Wesson!

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My .38 Airweight has around 7000 rounds down the pipe between using it for LE work, instructing and being used for ammo testing purposes. I have zero concerns about shooting Airweights with properly manufactured ammo.





I prefer 148 grain poly coated wadcutters from my own outfit.

S&W normally is pretty good about warranty work on their guns, so it makes me wonder if there is additional information that may be relevant to their decision to not choose to work on a gun.

The use of WC ammo for defense is not new, just rehashed. In 1969 using wadcutters was espoused by some gurus for SD & LE. Some touted using HB wadcutters seated backwards, I saw something like that advertised recently like it was a new cure for cancer. I still use the 158 gr SWC HP +P as it is what I was "raised on". Used it, still works.
The "Chicago Load" or the "FBI Load" was the issue round for most of the time I spent with Chicago PD (1965-1995). The +P round was required for steel medium framed revolvers, and the non +P round for small frame and alloy framed revolvers. For a short time the same round in non HP configuration was issued. I use the "Nyclad" version of HP or SCW, like it a lot. For 9mm Super Vel was the way to go, similar 9mm rounds still are IMHO. The Super Vel was a 90 or 110 gr copper jacked HP which really moved out, 1200 actual fps, IIRC. Made quite a flash also. Of course the semi auto handguns of the day were a little problematical. The Model 39 came out with the Illinois State Police in 1967, replaced by the Model 59 a few years later. I felt the Browning HP was the best 9mm back then, still do. Super Vel also produced some real fire breathing 38/357 rounds, quite literally fire breathing. Same formula, lightweight JHP moving out at serious velocity
Chicago cops carried 6 rounds in the gun and 6 in a dump pouch (the operative word is "dump"), For a while some bosses enforced the "only 12 rounds rule" strictly. The ISP were authorized to carry only one spare magazine in a pouch on the cross draw holster, and they enforced that rule very strictly for a time. That changed when a trooper saved his and several other lives because he had a "bootleg" extra magazine with him and the fight exceeded the capacity of his M39 and extra magazine. He got a medal and a written reprimand at the same time, then they changed the rule. I just carried an extra dump pouch which could be slipped off and pocketed when the Inspector was around.
Don't remember who said it, but: "Bullet placement is King, penetration is Queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin".
I believe it.
I have seen a lot of folks shot with small calibers fall over dead, and many shot several times with the biggest and heaviest loads keep on being seriously anti social. For a while. Sometimes, quite a while.
There are so many variables, particularly these days with so much drug use, and so many crazy folks around, including some very high ardrenalin. I believe those factors do affect how people respond to getting shot.
I am starting to think that ones' social agenda may produce some very high chemical responses, of course I could be wrong. I was wrong once, but then I realized I was mistaken.
I am an old guy, I get to ramble...

HARLEY0 said:

I would not fire a Smith & Wesson 642 Airweight - mine blew up in my hand firing .38 specials and S&W would not do anything about it! I will never buy a new weapon from Smith & Wesson!

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If you bothered to go to the manual that came along with the firearm, under the ammunition section, there are numerous warnings pertaining to proper ammunition. Smith and Wesson cannot possibly see the ammunition you were using, nor did you mention anything about the ammunition you were using, nor the circumstances when the firearm, as you said, "Blew up in my hand firing 38 specials." Factory ammunition is loaded below any pressure limits because manufacturers do not have any control over what firearm you will be shooting it in. S&W also specifically states not to shoot reloaded ammunition in their firearms. The fact that the ammo you were using blew up your 642 indicates that you were not shooting ammunition that was in accordance with their guidance or warranty. Thus you did not follow the guidance in the firearms manual so there was no reason for them to do anything about your issue. That made the issue entirely yours, not theirs.

Buffalo Bore has a standard pressure short barrel 38 Spl. Uses a Barnes 110 gr bullet at about 1000 fps. A little pricey but hey, what is your life worth.

Some good info here, many will fill the bill. I concur with the POA/POI ability of chosen ammo for field work and carry.

Always will be varying opinions on what is but I think many will agree nothing is 100% in life, take that into consideration. A co worker did a fair amount of testing in his carry guns and learned much from it, mostly water filled jugs at the time.

Anyways, I wanted to pass this along for those who want some info on the Speer short barrel Gold Dot HP's:


I've not done any testing as of yet, hope to soon. My EDC is loaded with the FBI load for now, has been for some time. HTH

Dump1567 said:

I've gone to the newer Federal Hydra-shok Deep in several calibers. Usually gives good expansion and adequate penetration in the Gel tests I've seen. I'm also a fan of the Rem. Golden Saber and Hornady Critical Defense. Although I do have WC ammo I could use, I prefer HP's.

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I forgot to mention, here's a good write-up on the Deep. And a few key quotes from the article.

The .38 Special Hydra-Shok Deep Journey

When fired from the 1.875” barrel of a snubby revolver, the 130 grain, .38 Special Deep bullet clocks about 800 feet per second at the muzzle, as a result of careful powder selection. According to Federal’s Chris Laack, this energy allows the bullet to penetrate 13.2 inches of bare ballistic gelatin, and expand to 0.551 inches (1.54 times it’s starting diameter), according to Federal’s numbers. In FBI-standard Heavy Clothing, the bullet is said to penetrate 13.4 inches and expand to 0.548 inches (1.53 times it’s starting diameter) from the same, short barrel.

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This performance puts the .38 Special +P Hydra-Shok Deep in a unique position in the market. There really isn’t another hollowpoint bullet out there which reliably goes beyond 12 inches in gelatin, with good, consistent expansion, when it’s fired from a snubby revolver.

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Tabby Lynn said:

Reliable expansion is controlled by velocity. If the bullet is not traveling with enough velocity to cause the expansion then don't expect a hollow point to work. Snub nose handguns are notorious for low muzzle velocity. +P ammo will not help because powder burned after the bullet leaves the barrel does nothing but cause muzzle flash with no gain in velocity. Check the barrel length that the ammo was tested at. All are 4 inches. Cut half or more off the length of the barrel and you can expect a large decrease in muzzle velocity, thus not enough velocity to cause reliable expansion. If you are shooting a 2 inch or less snubbie you might as well shoot flat points, at least you know what you are dealing with.

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X-actly!