Low capacity but probably enough

If you believe that, then why even carry? If the odds are so great, that you would be struck by lightening, or be in a car accident, or have the house burn down first, then why would anyone carry?

You would be better served increasing your home owners and car insurance policies.
Evil travels, it does not just stay in the bad areas of town. Evil comes out in the day, not just past midnight. Evil likes company, so sometimes is not by itself. It might show up while I'm grocery shopping, it might poke it's head into the convenience store while I'm getting milk and eggs. It might decide it has a grudge against my chruch and show up on a Sunday morning during worship so it can make a statement. It might even show up where I work, or any other likely location I might be.

And as far as health goes, I have a much higher risk of health issues if I eat poorly or am over weight, so I would be better served with good diet and exercise.


If you could predict when a bad encounter is going to happen, then you could just avoid it all together.

And since I can't fit a Cop in my pocket to take with me 24/7/365, I carry a pistol. And since I can't predict or forecast bad things, I want something with at least 10 rds. that I can shoot effectively at least out to 25yds. With a caliper that is going to ballistically do damage if I hit the right spot.


You are right though, odds are in my favor that if I stick to the daylight hours, only go to nice places and be in bed by 10, I should be fine...

Wait, what was that noise, oh well, don't worry, go back to sleep, I'm sure it's nothing. Odds are in my favor....:cool:
I would be so very happy if I get to the end of my days without being forced to draw a gun on a human being. The primary reason I have most of my guns is shooting fun. But I did say 'most'.
 
It’s a general discussion, certainly not centered around you. Furthermore I am quite capable of protecting myself and my family and anyone else where the actions of the perp shocks the conscience. i will reiterate, I believe that there are excellent choices that allow people to be better prepared to win a gunfight besides a low capacity, more difficult to shoot small revolver or for that matter a pocket auto. Anyone can carry what they want, but seeing what is going on in the world a higher capacity pistol gives you a better chance to win a gunfight. No more, no less! 🇺🇸👮🏻‍♂️👍🏻
Since you're quoting me, I assume you (personally) are addressing me (personally). Sorry you took personal offense at my question to the generic you.
 
There are about 3 versions of this debate currently active on the Forum. Far more entertaining than what's on the tube.

To distill all this down: never leave home without something in a caliber beginning with "4" that holds a minimum 10 rounds plus at least two reloads, preferably extended snail drum mags in case you encounter a drug-addled psychotic bear who thinks you are romancing his mate and has brought the Hell's Angels and a couple of hundred MS13 thugs as backup and is approaching you from 100 yards. Got it.

After nearly 50 years of nearly daily carry (on and off the job) arthritis, two bum knees and progressively less acute vision have convinced me that much of what I did in my 20s, 30s and 40s I am no longer capable of doing. That and the fact that I no longer go looking for trouble dictate that my daily load out involves fewer guns, less ammo and no body armor. I also no longer keep a shotgun, riot gear, gas mask and Geiger counter in my trunk. If it takes more than 10 rounds I am content to go down fighting. If the 11th round would have changed the outcome, I've lived a long life but never expected to live forever.

Just one more question: unless you are expecting me to protect you, what do you care what I have chosen to carry?

I don't come here often, in fact, I came from another forum to have you S&W historians date one of my more historical pieces.

I was just reading through this and I must say "thank you" for adding a bit of humour and levity to a tired old topic.

My two cents will try to appeal to all views here, because there is a grain of truth to everyone's post.

Firstly, Buford, I agree the most with your opinion and share it. If one wants to know how to truly be safe, don't go to crowded areas, where alcohol is served, late at night. One of those is bad, and three ups the ante. By having a sweet disposition, a sober body/mind, and by having a forgiving demeanour with being able to unholster an understanding "oh, I'm sorry, my mistake" in less than a quarter of a second, I have talked my way out of more potential conflicts than anything I ever carried on my person.

Capacity? A gun? Ft/lbs energy? All good points. How about this one? You win every single fight that you never get into. Pretty sweet deal and it is free.

If you get stuck where you cannot talk your way out of something, your Nike-Fu fails you (running), and you are stuck with no other option than to fight, then yes, the most important thing is to have a gun on you. It might also be a good idea to have something in the 'non-lethal' category too.

For my own life, I have another rule too. I will not get involved in any fight, unless I am dragged into it as an unwilling participant and it is for my child, significant other, or myself. Every armed conflict entails legal trouble, being detained, job issues or loss. That is what is on the table, so whatever you fight for must be so important to you that you are willing to risk that. Some people will gladly sacrifice all of the above for nothing. That is not me. I have seen someone catch murder charges over an argument that originated around shovelling snow. Yes, some people's bar is set that low. If they are not my child or someone who means almost as much to me, I am not risking anything. My goal at this age is to no longer be a hero, but to be the guy who lives a long time and gets to spend as many Birthday's and Christmases with his family as humanly possible.

Now the hardware. The gun. Honestly? Do what you want. How do you think your gun fight is going to go? Carry whatever makes you happy.

I have carried revolvers and outshot guys with decked out Glocks (very fun to do dynamic moving target drills with a wheel gun against younger guys with tactical tupperware) and that proves the training point. I have also carried filthy bottom feeders (semi-autos) because I felt that was the most fitting for their inherent advantages too (so yes, sometimes the arrow does matter).

Personally, the gun part of the equation is boring to me. It would be a more exciting thread to discuss what each of you ate for breakfast this morning, because at least that actually had an impact on your day.

The what if game. Studying history is great, it can tell you a lot. Officer Timothy Gramins had fatally shot a guy to pieces with a .45 acp and the guy was mortally wounded, yet not stopped.

In another incident, Jake Carrizal was held down on the ground by a bunch of 1%er bikers, beaten, and also had one of them shooting at him with a handgun while he was down on the ground. Jake pulled a 2 shot 38 special derringer and ended the threat. He lived to tell about it.

Both of these incidents happened: the terminator bad guy who would not stop (Gramins) and the biker gang thwarted by a derringer (Carrizal).

In summary, life is about choices, and after the age of 18 there are no victims, only volunteers. I still feel that to be a softly spoken, sober individual (who is armed as a last resort, and for the benefit of those immediately important to him/her) will be a safer route 9 times out of 10, than being a Batman vigilante, who dual wields Glock 17's cruising the bars, looking for damsels in distress to save.

Just my two cents.
 
I detect a note of sarcasm, which if I am correct does nothing for the discussion. Actually yoou are mistaken.

I detect a note of sarcasm, which if I am correct does nothing for the discussion. Actually you seem angry?
If you mean the part about jealous bears, yes, that was sarcasm. I'm not angry. That is all.
 
I live in rural S.C. but check the news for the city about two hours away. It's amazing how much violence has increased there in the last five years. Some guy mowing his grass was attacked and killed by four people earlier this week. It seems someone gets shot every night. I used to pack my snub and felt well prepared when I traveled to the city. Now it's a Shield Plus. I am getting some additional training next week.
 
For my own life, I have another rule too. I will not get involved in any fight, unless I am dragged into it as an unwilling participant and it is for my child, significant other, or myself. Every armed conflict entails legal trouble, being detained, job issues or loss. That is what is on the table, so whatever you fight for must be so important to you that you are willing to risk that.

I have said that many times, often referring to Bernard Getz legal issues of having one survive.

But, I was in a parking lot recently when it looked like a girl was about to get attacked after leaving a gym. And I headed in her direction to ascertain the situation and assist if necessary, fortunately, it was someone running to return something to her instead of attack.

You can plan scenarios in your head all day (and it helps), but until it occurs you don't really know what you are going to do.
 
I just wanted to address a point or two that I always see or hear.

The first is someone saying they stay out of bad areas, don’t go out after a certain time, etc. While it may make a difference, I’m not as confident that makes the difference some think it does. You might be more likely to be encounter a problem in the hood at 2am, but you sure aren’t free from it in fancy land at 2pm either.
Don’t believe me? Have lunch wherever your local LE officers gather. Get a table nearby and listen in. It might be illuminating.

This goes along with the idea of “What I carry depends on where I’m going”.
What I don’t like about doing this is it means I’d be carrying different things at different times. That doesn’t seem like a good idea.

Another thing I think I’m seeing is the idea that if they have a problem, that problem will be alone. A single bad guy is almost rare anymore. Sure, there are the single desperate criminals out there, but there are also the groups. Go from one to two and they get bolder. Increase the number much more, and they get evil.

There also seems to be an expectation that one or two hits will solve things. There is plenty of video evidence that says otherwise. Sometimes we don’t know where this person was hit and assume they aren’t hit very well. Other times we do know, or find out, and I think a lot of people would think it “should have” done more. It sure seems like the irrational and unreasonable types don’t react to being shot rationally or reasonably.

Sure, we’ve all seen video of poor marksmanship where three or more LEOs empty their guns and barely get their man stopped. But what we usually don’t get is while they missed a LOT or got poor hits, there is often three, four, five, etc GOOD hits among them.

Stop and think about it this way: Those three or four officers spraying and praying might still have got the hits that just one of us hopes to get.
And those hits barely got the job done.

Take that last point about lack of effectiveness and combine it with my point above about multiple bad guys and it starts looking gloomier for us.

In conclusion-
The only time I’ve needed to draw a gun was when I came home to my nice place, in a nice neighborhood, at around 3 in the afternoon and walked in on a break-in.
There were two people.
One threatened me with the crowbar he used to gain entry and still held.
I had an 8+1 compact 9mm (S&W 3913).
I drew and told them to leave. I didn’t try to hold them or anything.
I was lucky and didn’t have to fire a shot. One ran out immediately, but Crowbar Guy took some convincing so it was real close to going differently.

This was in 1994, 31 years ago. I believe had this happened now, there might be more of them, one at the very least would be armed with more than a crowbar, and I’m sure they would’ve been bolder.

When I look back on it, I believe what I was armed with at the time to be the bare minimum for the situation. An angry guy with a crowbar within reach of me? He’s not getting one or two rounds.
 
It is definitely the indian, not the arrow. A well trained man with a J frame is far superior to an untrained man with the latest and greatest blaster. I think the J frame certainly has place as either a BUG or for an NPE. My perspective is why limit yourself to a lesser weapon, when better choices are available. 🇺🇸👮🏻‍♂️👍🏻
I agree, I am at the range weekly. I carry a Glock 19 with no extra mags for "Self Defense". The OP was discussing self defense, not a gun fight. I put myself in a stupid position one evening. Yes, I am man enough to admit that! LOL I neglected to fill my vehicle until it was on vapors. Had to stop at a Wawa at 2am. As I was pumping, a group of thugs were hanging around the entrance. Three of them decided to walk towards me. As I was pumping, I simply lifted my shirt to show I was carrying and they turned away as I heard their friends teasing them for going after a LEO. No I am not a LEO, nor do/did I pretend to be. Did I correct them? Heck no! Before I get blasted ... Yes, I know it could have gone to hell in a NY second. Am I prepared for a gun fight? Yes, I keep 4 extra mags in my console, plus I keep a M&P FPC behind the front passenger seat. Just like I got my wife a Glock 44. Looks like a Glock 19 but in 22LR. Yes, I know 22LR is not a large round. But, if a thug is coming at her. Do you think he is going to ask "Hmmmm is that a 22 or 9?" Let's face it, carrying is 75% a deterrent.
 
Was very glad I had a Walther PPK/S with me one day visiting a nice waterfall in these old Ozarks. Climbing back up to ground level I heard a chilling sound a couple feet in front of me, it was a 5 & 1/2 foot Timber. I left with no strikes and left him with all his venom intact but he had no more use for it.

You just never know.
Guess I would have been safe from Viboras in Alaska.

Hunters go where game is likely to be.

Criminals go where easy pickings are.

I would not wade through a rattlesnake den or even get close to one without appropriate armament. ( and snake boots)

I would not go into some Urban areas with out appropriate armament .

Both threats seem bolder on their home turf.
 
Most of us will never use our firearm in self defense, and I would guess that most of us will never have a reason to draw our weapon. Yet I read frequently about folks carry two, or even three guns routinely, and/or carrying several extra magazines. Maybe I am being naive, but it seems that carrying almost any gun, including a two shot Derringer, is probably going to do the job just as well as the Glock 17 with three extra mags on the belt. When I carried a lightweight snub nose 38, with 5 rounds, I never worried about being unprepared. Most of the time I carry a 9mm with 10 rounds, but lately I sometimes carry a 22 with 10 rounds and feel just as well equipped to deal with whatever might be facing me that day. I'd guess many here don't have the same view on this.
My philosophy (which I know will not meet the thread muster) is if I am put into a gun fight, my thinking, the first hit will probably stop the fight. So I carry a firearm with 8 rounds. I practice and pray at least one of those 8 shots connect. All while shooting I am looking for cover or escape, which likely my adversary will be doing the same. I have no interest in staying in a gun battle requiring multiple magazines.
 
The evil incident that just occurred in Colorado took place on a sunny afternoon in an affluent neighborhood. Anyone of us could be there. The question is what shocks your conscience enough to intervene? Only you can answer that one. Personally if I saw kids getting lit 🔥 on fire, I would, but that’s my choice based on my training, experience and profession. If I’m going to become involved I want the best possible kit that fits the mission at hand. For me that’s a 9mm pistol with a red dot, carried aiwb and an extra magazine completely concealed. Sometimes a J-frame in the off side pocket to be able to arm my competent significant other. You make your choices and live with them! 🇺🇸👮🏻‍♂️👍🏻
Living 45 min from where that happened and being a firefighter…I identify with your thoughts.
 
Most of us will never use our firearm in self defense, and I would guess that most of us will never have a reason to draw our weapon. Yet I read frequently about folks carry two, or even three guns routinely, and/or carrying several extra magazines. Maybe I am being naive, but it seems that carrying almost any gun, including a two shot Derringer, is probably going to do the job just as well as the Glock 17 with three extra mags on the belt. When I carried a lightweight snub nose 38, with 5 rounds, I never worried about being unprepared. Most of the time I carry a 9mm with 10 rounds, but lately I sometimes carry a 22 with 10 rounds and feel just as well equipped to deal with whatever might be facing me that day. I'd guess many here don't have the same view on this.
It's not about the odds. It's about the stakes.
 
You never know what your gunfight may look like? If all you are concerned with is “odds” then you as an individual don’t need any firearm. But those that get the “Churchill Tap” will want the best possible equipment for the mission and the best possible training to effectively use that kit! 🇺🇸👮🏻‍♂️👍🏻
Is this what you mean by Churchill tap?

To each there comes in their lifetime a special moment when they are figuratively tapped on the shoulder and offered the chance to do a very special thing, unique to them and fitted to their talents. What a tragedy if that moment finds them unprepared or unqualified for that which could have been their finest hour.
Sir Winston Churchill
 
It takes lotsa hand strength and practice, to even hit a paper target, at 5-7 yds, twice, or even once, with this Derringer, fired as fast as possible.
Always fun to have shooters try.
Win lotsa cold root beer, from the range machine.
Bought new around '81.
BUG to my M59, with extra mag, when fishing.
Always in my pocket while crawling around yachts, doing electronics installs, long ago.
Even in well guarded marinas/boat yards.
Now the BUG is an LCP.
View attachment 764238
Love that Colt snubby!
 
If you believe that, then why even carry? If the odds are so great, that you would be struck by lightening, or be in a car accident, or have the house burn down first, then why would anyone carry?

You would be better served increasing your home owners and car insurance policies.
Evil travels, it does not just stay in the bad areas of town. Evil comes out in the day, not just past midnight. Evil likes company, so sometimes is not by itself. It might show up while I'm grocery shopping, it might poke it's head into the convenience store while I'm getting milk and eggs. It might decide it has a grudge against my chruch and show up on a Sunday morning during worship so it can make a statement. It might even show up where I work, or any other likely location I might be.

And as far as health goes, I have a much higher risk of health issues if I eat poorly or am over weight, so I would be better served with good diet and exercise.


If you could predict when a bad encounter is going to happen, then you could just avoid it all together.

And since I can't fit a Cop in my pocket to take with me 24/7/365, I carry a pistol. And since I can't predict or forecast bad things, I want something with at least 10 rds. that I can shoot effectively at least out to 25yds. With a caliper that is going to ballistically do damage if I hit the right spot.


You are right though, odds are in my favor that if I stick to the daylight hours, only go to nice places and be in bed by 10, I should be fine...

Wait, what was that noise, oh well, don't worry, go back to sleep, I'm sure it's nothing. Odds are in my favor....:cool:
Exactly when do you plan to shoot out to 25 yards with a pistol in any self defense situation?
 
I was at the range yesterday and two young guys (guessing about 21) came in carrying a Glock case and a bag and set up in the lane next to me. All of a sudden they slung 30 rounds downrange in about 5 seconds and actually hit the midsection on the target. I leaned over and said, "Fast reset trigger?" Yup. The kid told me it was less than $50 for a G19. Next they ran a full 50 round drum mag in about 10 seconds. The RO came in and told them to slow it down a little but the barrel on the Glock was glowing at that point so they had to take a break. All told they probably went through 200 rounds.

All I could think is, "THIS is what we're up against out there?" My 10-12 rounds might give me a chance if, God forbid, I ever have to use my firearm. But it would be pretty tough to defend against a 30-50 round burst of 9mm from someone who knows even basic shooting.
 
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The term, "mindset" comes to mind. The OP appears to have the proper mindset. Granted there was that internet story a few years back where the wrapper of a bear country happy meal was found with a snub nose .38 Special with three or four round expended, and a couple days later a hunter bagged a grizz that had recently taken to sporting several 158 grain RNL body piercings, but I have no problem with someone not looking for trouble but taking precautions to carry a five shot.

I recall a fairly credible account from a friend of my father who explained how the mere, non threatening visible presence of a Beretta Bobcat in .22LR was sufficient to dissuade some problem children who after more than a light of their cigarettes.

Before discovering the Sig P365, I carried a Glock 43 with standard six-round magazines because factory magazines had demonstrated utter reliability, while aftermarket base extensions or complete magazines didn't. Because of where I was at and what I was doing for a living Icarried three or four extra magazines on my person when off the clock, however. I've carried, still sometimes carry a five shot, but always carry reloads. My 365 gets loaded with 12-round with grip adapter or the standard 10-rounders depending on where I am at and how I must carry. I took a class recently where the intent was to shoot targets, and I found the 17-round mag I had for my other Sig that I took to the class, a P365XL was preferable to the 12-rounders. I still had a bit of regret that I didn't take my full sized M&P 9, however. I do like the idea of the full sized M&P with un-neutered magazines being available for home defense situations when group activities such as home invasions tend to stay popular.

Having the mindset to survive, including the mindset to keep one's self in condition yellow; to take the opportunity to avoid bad situations; to try to be courteous and offer to de-escalate an potentially bad situation; to carry something or another that is less lethal, is important. Training with what you do carry is also critical. There are just as many folks running around with the latests and greatest handgun that has so many accessories that it borders on being classified as "crew served" who don't have any of the above skills or mindset as there are people running around with five shots with the same handicap.

So I would not go into bear country to hike carrying only a .22 revolver, a five shot, or my P365s, but I do not feel disadvantaged everywhere else I currently have business. I do draw the line at two shot derringers, but a derringer in your pocket that works is better than looking for a sharp stick in civilized surroundings.
Regarding your said "problem children": what if you pull your Glock 17 with extra mags on the mob, and one of them then steps in and sneers "what you gonna do now, shoot me?" Could happen with a snub, too, and training won't necessarily save you in a fast- breaking gang-type attack. No matter what you carry for self-defense, the best bet will always be not being in the place where bad things happen as much as possible. Our open borders have opened Americans to more mayhem than ever before in my long lifetime, but being the smarter gray-man is far cheaper than having a couple of lawyers on retainer, too. Carry what you think you need, but the goal is to not need to shoot anyone ever in your lifetime - anything else is just posturing and machismo, the old "my gun is bigger than your gun routine", with the current "optics" craze being just one more facet if the syndrome. Survival mindset, as you wisely stated, is task #1.
 
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