Low capacity but probably enough

[duncan4521]

I just wanted to address a point or two that I always see or hear.

The first is someone saying they stay out of bad areas, don’t go out after a certain time, etc. While it may make a difference, I’m not as confident that makes the difference some think it does. You might be more likely to be encounter a problem in the hood at 2am, but you sure aren’t free from it in fancy land at 2pm either.
Don’t believe me? Have lunch wherever your local LE officers gather. Get a table nearby and listen in. It might be illuminating.

This goes along with the idea of “What I carry depends on where I’m going”.
What I don’t like about doing this is it means I’d be carrying different things at different times. That doesn’t seem like a good idea.

Another thing I think I’m seeing is the idea that if they have a problem, that problem will be alone. A single bad guy is almost rare anymore. Sure, there are the single desperate criminals out there, but there are also the groups. Go from one to two and they get bolder. Increase the number much more, and they get evil.

There also seems to be an expectation that one or two hits will solve things. There is plenty of video evidence that says otherwise. Sometimes we don’t know where this person was hit and assume they aren’t hit very well. Other times we do know, or find out, and I think a lot of people would think it “should have” done more. It sure seems like the irrational and unreasonable types don’t react to being shot rationally or reasonably.

Sure, we’ve all seen video of poor marksmanship where three or more LEOs empty their guns and barely get their man stopped. But what we usually don’t get is while they missed a LOT or got poor hits, there is often three, four, five, etc GOOD hits among them.

Stop and think about it this way: Those three or four officers spraying and praying might still have got the hits that just one of us hopes to get.
And those hits barely got the job done.

Take that last point about lack of effectiveness and combine it with my point above about multiple bad guys and it starts looking gloomier for us.

In conclusion-
The only time I’ve needed to draw a gun was when I came home to my nice place, in a nice neighborhood, at around 3 in the afternoon and walked in on a break-in.
There were two people.
One threatened me with the crowbar he used to gain entry and still held.
I had an 8+1 compact 9mm (S&W 3913).
I drew and told them to leave. I didn’t try to hold them or anything.
I was lucky and didn’t have to fire a shot. One ran out immediately, but Crowbar Guy took some convincing so it was real close to going differently.

This was in 1994, 31 years ago. I believe had this happened now, there might be more of them, one at the very least would be armed with more than a crowbar, and I’m sure they would’ve been bolder.

When I look back on it, I believe what I was armed with at the time to be the bare minimum for the situation. An angry guy with a crowbar within reach of me? He’s not getting one or two rounds.

Well said, I couldn’t agree more!

 

[PittsburghJon67]

There are about 3 versions of this debate currently active on the Forum. Far more entertaining than what's on the tube.

To distill all this down: never leave home without something in a caliber beginning with "4" that holds a minimum 10 rounds plus at least two reloads, preferably extended snail drum mags in case you encounter a drug-addled psychotic bear who thinks you are romancing his mate and has brought the Hell's Angels and a couple of hundred MS13 thugs as backup and is approaching you from 100 yards. Got it.

After nearly 50 years of nearly daily carry (on and off the job) arthritis, two bum knees and progressively less acute vision have convinced me that much of what I did in my 20s, 30s and 40s I am no longer capable of doing. That and the fact that I no longer go looking for trouble dictate that my daily load out involves fewer guns, less ammo and no body armor. I also no longer keep a shotgun, riot gear, gas mask and Geiger counter in my trunk. If it takes more than 10 rounds I am content to go down fighting. If the 11th round would have changed the outcome, I've lived a long life but never expected to live forever.

Just one more question: unless you are expecting me to protect you, what do you care what I have chosen to carry?

Couldn't have been said better, sir. Old guys like us have life experience tempered with infirmities, all hard won. Protect your family, first, last, and always. I enjoyed your post enormously.

 

[duncan4521]

Is this what you mean by Churchill tap?


Sir Winston Churchill

Yes that’s it, great quote.

 

[Neumann]

There are an abundance of opinions about what constitutes adequate EDC. What they boil down to is an EDC you can shoot quickly and accurately at least twice. Beyond three rounds, the situation becomes a shootout rather than a defensive shooting. Related aspects are firearms you are willing or able to carry, and practice with enough to achieve proficiency. Terminal ballistics are probably more important for defense against four-legged predators (if you're counting).

 

[Mark IV]

I’n pretty sure it was Jeff Cooper. First rule of a gunfight is to have a gun….

LOL! That's exactly what I was just thinking, and considering posting!
I agree with the OP. I've read and participated in these threads going back a couple decades, and it always seems like the heavy-packers tend to be snidely critical of anyone that carries "less gun" than they do. While it's entirely possible I'll one day be in a situation I wish I had more than my usual 5 or 10 rounds, the reality is that it's unlikely in the EXTREME. And I'd rather not deal with the annoyance and discomfort, over numerous decades, of humping around a full-sized duty pistol w/ multiple mags ( and maybe a spare pistol?)
Also, if any of us were in a situation where we truly needed a G17 and 3 spare mags, we are already vastly outnumbered and outgunned, and were either the victim of incredibly bad luck, and/or very poor situational awareness.
But I guess me and my humble S&W Airweight or G48, will just muddle through like some "old fud" that is practically begging to become a statistic.

 

[duncan4521]

LOL! That's exactly what I was just thinking, and considering posting!
I agree with the OP. I've read and participated in these threads going back a couple decades, and it always seems like the heavy-packers tend to be snidely critical of anyone that carries "less gun" than they do. While it's entirely possible I'll one day be in a situation I wish I had more than my usual 5 or 10 rounds, the reality is that it's unlikely in the EXTREME. And I'd rather not deal with the annoyance and discomfort, over numerous decades, of humping around a full-sized duty pistol w/ multiple mags ( and maybe a spare pistol?)
Also, if any of us were in a situation where we truly needed a G17 and 3 spare mags, we are already vastly outnumbered and outgunned, and were either the victim of incredibly bad luck, and/or very poor situational awareness.
But I guess me and my humble Airweight. 38 or G48, will just muddle through like some "old fud" that is practically begging to become a statistic.

I agree a full sized pistol like a G17 isn’t always convenient to carry. My point is that there are many better choices for a primary arm than a 5 shot J frame 38 special. Your G48 is a great example.

 

[CH4]

I use Mobil 1 0w-20.

 

[Jon651]

I use Mobil 1 0w-20.

On your popcorn? Now that's hardcore!

 

[CH4]

On your popcorn? Now that's hardcore!

Better than Olestra. Can’t wander far from the can.

 

[fatcat3]

You might be more likely to be encounter a problem in the hood at 2am, but you sure aren’t free from it in fancy land at 2pm either.

While you are very likely correct, one is more likely to run into trouble in Chicago pop. 2.72 million v my hometown pop. 817. Simple numbers.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

I was at the range yesterday and two young guys (guessing about 21) came in carrying a Glock case and a bag and set up in the lane next to me. All of a sudden they slung 30 rounds downrange in about 5 seconds and actually hit the midsection on the target. I leaned over and said, "Fast reset trigger?" Yup. The kid told me it was less than $50 for a G19. Next they ran a full 50 round drum mag in about 10 seconds. The RO came in and told them to slow it down a little but the barrel on the Glock was glowing at that point so they had to take a break. All told they probably went through 200 rounds.

All I could think is, "THIS is what we're up against out there?" My 10-12 rounds might give me a chance if, God forbid, I ever have to use my firearm. But it would be pretty tough to defend against a 30-50 round burst of 9mm from someone who knows even basic shooting.

And that right there is why, in this isolated example, I’m all for restrictions and gun banner energy on these specific items:

1: a burst of 9mm is not an appropriate defensive choice in most environments; most of those rounds will miss their target. We’re not on Klendathu or trying to hold the Cadian Gates…
2: a forced-reset trigger dumping 20-30-50 rounds in seconds is functionally a machine gun. What precisely is the difference in outcome? Aside from the practical implications of spraying bullets at/around/towards civilization, I’d really hate to be trying to explain my choices to a jury.
3: although were responsible for every bullet we fire, people are idiots and legal recriminations are cold comfort to victims. FRTs are functionally the CCW equivalent of hand grenades or flamethrowers…kind of an area weapon if even slightly misused.

These things don’t make guns any safer, more accurate, more controllable or more reliable. Their only function is the mechanical equivalent of gun twirling. Even if you “could”, it’s functionally insane to do it in anything other than an extremely highly-controlled setting with no practical value whatsoever. And their inevitable misuse will eventually give gun banners all the justification needed to take a mile when we should’ve simply conceded the worlds dumbest inches.

 

[MTK20]

Back on another forum, we have a combat veteran who upon coming home stateside, carried a 44 magnum.

He liked the platform and the cartridge, and we were having this very same discussion.

He brought up some good points that were basically along these lines:

1. Your Glock? does it have a bifurcated barrel? Can it shoot in two directions?

2. That 17 round magazine, does it slow down time? Does it give you more time? Does it make the bad guys wait patiently to fight you one on one like the main character in a Quentin Tarantino film?

3. The way I see it, if the answer is 'no' to the two above questions, then whether you shoot off six of 38 or six of 9mm, if you are truly fighting a legion of armed ninjas or whatever, they can still raise an arm and fire at you from their separate locations, before you can get off all the rounds you have.

You say you carry a bajillion round clip-azine because you don't play the odds against you. Unless your gun has multiple angled barrels, or your high capacity magazine can slow down space and time, in this hypothetical mob of ninjas, gang of bikers, whatever, your high capacity magazine is a pacifier. It is a coping mechanism.

I thought it was good food for thought.

 

[Law-dog]

There are an abundance of opinions about what constitutes adequate EDC. What they boil down to is an EDC you can shoot quickly and accurately at least twice. Beyond three rounds, the situation becomes a shootout rather than a defensive shooting. Related aspects are firearms you are willing or able to carry, and practice with enough to achieve proficiency. Terminal ballistics are probably more important for defense against four-legged predators (if you're counting).

Beyond 3 rounds, it becomes a shootout? Maybe so, unless you miss. As a cop I carried lots of rounds, as a CCW instructor since 1996, I teach 15 rounds for wheel guns, or 2 speed loaders or one spare magazine for pistols, but always one reload,

A simple device to extend capacity is a laser, they will cut misses in half, since only hits count, lasers increase capacity. There is zero down side to a laser on a defense gun, nothing is faster, ever and nothing is more accurate, ever.

 

[Harv 24]

There are an abundance of opinions about what constitutes adequate EDC. What they boil down to is an EDC you can shoot quickly and accurately at least twice. Beyond three rounds, the situation becomes a shootout rather than a defensive shooting. Related aspects are firearms you are willing or able to carry, and practice with enough to achieve proficiency. Terminal ballistics are probably more important for defense against four-legged predators (if you're counting).

I like how you decided that 3 rds is what it will take to stop an attacker. Can you tell me what the stock market is going to do on Monday?

 

[SFury79]

Exactly when do you plan to shoot out to 25 yards with a pistol in any self defense situation?

When the situation dictates the need to do so. We don't know how things will happen until they happen.

With any of my full size guns, or 3+" revolver, I practice out to 20 yards. Mostly because I spend time in the woods, and use handguns to hunt with. Distance matters more to me because of my normal uses for firearms. It could matter in a SD situation, or that skill could be useless.

From actually extending my range to 50+ yards I have found that most of the cartridges I shoot are flat shooting out to 50 yards.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

I’m not a LEO or a soldier anymore. Getting into a firefight involving dozens of rounds exchanged is pretty unlikely. And if it looks that way, I ain’t reaching for a pistol.

 

[Terry G]

There is an old adage from a long gone WWII Vet who knew what the "H" he was speaking about and that was "You can never have enough firepower in a gunfight".

One I like better was said to us newbies in Viet Nam by a 21 year old Staff Sergeant. "Unless you are on fire or drowning you can't have too much ammunition."

 

[Terry G]

I just watched one of those TV shows made up of live video's about crimes. This guy was robbing a liquor store owned by a Mother and Daughter. They had a "Trap Robber" where you exited into a small breezeway that could be locked trapping the crook in between the two doors. A small problem was the shotgun the robber was carrying with which he blew out the glass of the inner door. Both Women had short barreled revolvers and in the melee that followed shot the robber four times. He had a brief wrestling match with the Mother and got her revolver of which she had thoughtfully emptied and the Daughter shot him in the back at close range. He got to his feet and made it out of the store. They didn't say how far he got before the Police got him, but he was still mobile. His shotgun was a single shot and when he fired at the glass it became useless. I wish I knew the caliber of those revolvers but I don't. They looked like your standard .38 Special 2 inch barreled S&W's but I don't know. Anyway, this robber was hit with something five times and was still tussling with the Women until he broke it off and left the store. Maybe they had .22's, I don't know, but it wasn't enough, that I do know. CZ 15 Shot P-01 9MM with a spare 14 shot magazine or very recently a S&W M&P 2.0 .45 Compact. 10 shot with a 14 shot spare magazine. If it's too much I don't care. When I was working it was MANDATORY to carry 60 rounds of 9MM. "Two, or at the most three shots should end it." I'm not taking a chance on "Should".

 

[Smoke]

The wrapper is the guy that got killed and half eaten by the bear.

That makes sense

 

[Smoke]

Yes, but the world has changed. The crack head with the sharpened screwdriver has been replaced by a committed terrorist that isn’t afraid to die.

That's why I live here.