duncan4521
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Totally agree! 17M most of the year w/ 24 round oem spare. Summer a G43X w/ an oem reload w/ a mag extension (14 rounds).
Low capacity but probably enough
- Thread starter Mr. Vito
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walkin' trails
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The term, "mindset" comes to mind. The OP appears to have the proper mindset. Granted there was that internet story a few years back where the wrapper of a bear country happy meal was found with a snub nose .38 Special with three or four round expended, and a couple days later a hunter bagged a grizz that had recently taken to sporting several 158 grain RNL body piercings, but I have no problem with someone not looking for trouble but taking precautions to carry a five shot.
I recall a fairly credible account from a friend of my father who explained how the mere, non threatening visible presence of a Beretta Bobcat in .22LR was sufficient to dissuade some problem children who after more than a light of their cigarettes.
Before discovering the Sig P365, I carried a Glock 43 with standard six-round magazines because factory magazines had demonstrated utter reliability, while aftermarket base extensions or complete magazines didn't. Because of where I was at and what I was doing for a living Icarried three or four extra magazines on my person when off the clock, however. I've carried, still sometimes carry a five shot, but always carry reloads. My 365 gets loaded with 12-round with grip adapter or the standard 10-rounders depending on where I am at and how I must carry. I took a class recently where the intent was to shoot targets, and I found the 17-round mag I had for my other Sig that I took to the class, a P365XL was preferable to the 12-rounders. I still had a bit of regret that I didn't take my full sized M&P 9, however. I do like the idea of the full sized M&P with un-neutered magazines being available for home defense situations when group activities such as home invasions tend to stay popular.
Having the mindset to survive, including the mindset to keep one's self in condition yellow; to take the opportunity to avoid bad situations; to try to be courteous and offer to de-escalate an potentially bad situation; to carry something or another that is less lethal, is important. Training with what you do carry is also critical. There are just as many folks running around with the latests and greatest handgun that has so many accessories that it borders on being classified as "crew served" who don't have any of the above skills or mindset as there are people running around with five shots with the same handicap.
So I would not go into bear country to hike carrying only a .22 revolver, a five shot, or my P365s, but I do not feel disadvantaged everywhere else I currently have business. I do draw the line at two shot derringers, but a derringer in your pocket that works is better than looking for a sharp stick in civilized surroundings.
I recall a fairly credible account from a friend of my father who explained how the mere, non threatening visible presence of a Beretta Bobcat in .22LR was sufficient to dissuade some problem children who after more than a light of their cigarettes.
Before discovering the Sig P365, I carried a Glock 43 with standard six-round magazines because factory magazines had demonstrated utter reliability, while aftermarket base extensions or complete magazines didn't. Because of where I was at and what I was doing for a living Icarried three or four extra magazines on my person when off the clock, however. I've carried, still sometimes carry a five shot, but always carry reloads. My 365 gets loaded with 12-round with grip adapter or the standard 10-rounders depending on where I am at and how I must carry. I took a class recently where the intent was to shoot targets, and I found the 17-round mag I had for my other Sig that I took to the class, a P365XL was preferable to the 12-rounders. I still had a bit of regret that I didn't take my full sized M&P 9, however. I do like the idea of the full sized M&P with un-neutered magazines being available for home defense situations when group activities such as home invasions tend to stay popular.
Having the mindset to survive, including the mindset to keep one's self in condition yellow; to take the opportunity to avoid bad situations; to try to be courteous and offer to de-escalate an potentially bad situation; to carry something or another that is less lethal, is important. Training with what you do carry is also critical. There are just as many folks running around with the latests and greatest handgun that has so many accessories that it borders on being classified as "crew served" who don't have any of the above skills or mindset as there are people running around with five shots with the same handicap.
So I would not go into bear country to hike carrying only a .22 revolver, a five shot, or my P365s, but I do not feel disadvantaged everywhere else I currently have business. I do draw the line at two shot derringers, but a derringer in your pocket that works is better than looking for a sharp stick in civilized surroundings.
duncan4521
Member
It is definitely the indian, not the arrow. A well trained man with a J frame is far superior to an untrained man with the latest and greatest blaster. I think the J frame certainly has place as either a BUG or for an NPE. My perspective is why limit yourself to a lesser weapon, when better choices are available.
I'm with you Vito. I feel pretty comfortable with a five shot Smith. I've carried one for 52 years now on and off duty plus retired. To this day I still train with it. I also practice with other weapons that some here would consider more appropriate due to caliber and capacity. But for me there's a pointability, safety and reliability factor that I'm very familiar with. Plus it's small and light. Three decades of large and heavy were enough.
walkin' trails
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Good points to bring up.
After the department investigating that mall incident reported the actual details of Eli Dickens' actions, I revised the "Eli Drill" to the following:
In 15 seconds or less....
40-yards - draw from holster and fire four rounds fired from kneeling barricade. In high ready position, move to 25-yard line
25-yards - four rounds standing. In high ready, move to 10-yard line.
10-yards - two rounds standing, scan, top off, holster.
Eli was really moving that day. He made eight out of ten hits. The current 40-yard drill is a marksmanship effort. The real scenario requires competent gun handling, speed, and solid accuracy under a lot of stress. I think it could be done with a five shot carried by a competent pistolero as long as he or she was really confident at reloading on the move.
Jim Cirillo's famous bodega fight, by his estimate, lasted around three seconds IIRC. IDPA recreated the scenario for a match in which Jim was in attendance. Jim, probably in his late 60s-early 70s smoked it in around three and a half seconds. The closest competitor was a couple seconds slower.
Doriangray6
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It doesn't matter how many rounds you have if you can't put them on target. Practice, practice, practice............
duncan4521
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It actually may matter? Multiple adversaries in a dynamic event. A scenario beyond the typical street robbery. Times have changed and unfortunately it may only get worse. “Pray for peace, bur prepare for war”.
Doriangray6
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It still doesn't matter how many rounds you have if you can't put them on target.
Jon651
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Since nobody can predict when and where, the decision on how many rounds to carry is personal preference and nothing more. I decided to carry a larger caliber (.45), so for me that means if I want to comfortably conceal I have fewer rounds. My current pistol carries 6+1, plus I have a spare mag in my pocket. From everything I've read, if I ever need a 14th bullet then I may have hung around too long!
What the hell does that even mean?
Any carry gun I've got has ten rounds. Since I don't believe in 'one shot stops' that's enough for three perps, three shots each and one spare. Or five perps two shots each. If the number of perps aren't easily divisible by ten I'll have to do the math on the fly.
duncan4521
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As I have previously stated, training is any essential in an armed confrontation. Marksmanship is maybe 20% at most. Mindset and tactics complete the puzzle. Why does one preclude the other? Can’t we be well trained and have good equipment too? The right tools to complete the mission. Of course it doesn’t matter how many rounds you have if you can’t put them where they need to go. Not disputing that, but you can’t put rounds where they need to go if you don’t have them.
Truer words were never spoken. The only time you figure out it isn't enough is when you're in the hospital, or the morgue. Personally, I'm not comfortable with less than 25 rounds on me.
The OP mentioned carrying a .22 sometimes. All I can say is: try not to. Not only is it severely underpowered, it also has manufacturing issues that render too high of a percentage of the ammo to not go off. If that priming compound doesn't completely fill the rim, all you'll get is a "click" when pulling the trigger.
duncan4521
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Well said, I’ve never met anyone that’s been in a gunfight that wished they had fewer rounds or a smaller gun.
In retrospect, police academy 1973, 60 round course. 50 yards 6 standing barricade 6 prone. 25 yards kneeling barricade 6 strong side, 6 over the top 6 weak side. 12 at 15 yards, 12 at 7 yards 6 at 1 yard. Everyone had a 4" revolver.
FBI firearms instructors school 1985, same basic course of fire. 29 out of 30 still had 4" revolvers.
Today, all have semi autos, some with red dots and weapons considered easier to shoot. Standard load 17+1. Course of fire 60 rounds at 25 yards and in.
Is there something wrong with this picture?
FBI firearms instructors school 1985, same basic course of fire. 29 out of 30 still had 4" revolvers.
Today, all have semi autos, some with red dots and weapons considered easier to shoot. Standard load 17+1. Course of fire 60 rounds at 25 yards and in.
Is there something wrong with this picture?
Doriangray6
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Where did I say that marksmanship precludes mindset and tactics? It's all part of proper training but even if you're scared ****less and the situation you find yourself in isn't covered by any planned tactics muscles and eyes trained by repetitive practice to draw or shoulder - aim - and put rounds on target can go into auto mode and accomplish this.As I have previously stated, training is any essential in an armed confrontation. Marksmanship is maybe 20% at most. Mindset and tactics complete the puzzle. Why does one preclude the other? Can’t we be well trained and have good equipment too? The right tools to complete the mission. Of course it doesn’t matter how many rounds you have if you can’t put them where they need to go. Not disputing that, but you can’t put rounds where they need to go if you don’t have them.
Spray and pray isn't a tactic unless your putting out suppressing fire, and even then it has to be done correctly, but many new shooters that I see at the ranges appear to be less concerned with marksmanship than they are with magazine capacity and how quickly they can dump rounds.
Venom6
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Mighta been Clint Smith who said, "None of them are small enough to carry, and none of them are big enough to fight with." While I will grant you that there are usually significant differences between civilian and LEO gunfights, I can say that during my few shootings I never wanted a smaller gun, a cheaper gun, or fewer bullets. On the other hand it mighta been Duane Thomas who famously said, "The first rule of gunfighting is - have a gun." Implicit in that is, "any gun is better than no gun," and, "the small gun you have on you is better than the big gun left at home." The beauty of our still-nominally-free society is we each get to make that decision, and then live (or die) as a consequence.
duncan4521
Member
Didn’t say you did. Spray and pray is the mark of the untrained. One doesn’t preclude the other. You can have good fundamental marksmanship skills, sound tactics and an aggressive mindset and also have the best possible tool to accomplish your goal of winning a gunfight. Now when I say good equipment I am not suggesting a battle belt, chest rig or an open carry holster with six extra 17 round magazines. What I am saying is that there are better choices for a totally concealed primary weapon than a five shot J frame and a speed strip unless you are in a non-permissive environment. To each his own, we all must live with our choices.
duncan4521
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