The unavoidable gun fight. Are you confident with your handgun choice?

Crap I’m behind the curve, September- November I worry if my 5’2” corner is going to get picked on or if my Mike is going to stuff the A gap. November to February can my team beat the press can we be disciplined to stay in our Zone. February to May it’s hold on for dear life 100 junior track stars 2 new coaches ( if I’m lucky) and me. Summer strength conditioning. Today my thoughts are worms or rooster tails. As stated before I rarely carry due to jobs.
When I worked corrections I found the phrase “ God watches over babies and idiots” my reaction to incidents in facilities. More than once I rushed in to stop fight or to provide emergency medical treatment. Never once waited for backup. Every time I realize afterwards how bad that could have ended. When God says it’s my time to go it’s time to go. No gun extra magazine or Sherman tank is going to change that. That’s the one fight I’m never gonna win

The best movie line ever come from a movie I can't recall the name of or who was in it. Basics: stupid woman reporter goes to talk with Gary Ridgway after being told to stay away, gets home safe and sound falling into her boyfriend's arms crying "He looks so normal". You Bet Your Sweet Bippy! 25 years working in a maximum security prison, I can say with some authority that seemingly some of the nicest people you ever want to meet are in prison. Just don't believe, trust, or turn your back on them. Situational awareness is a giant plus and much better than having your head stuck up your phone, however if you think you can spot a criminal just walking down the isle of your local stop and rob, JMHO you need to lay off the hippy lettuce.

The only really small mouse gun that I ever would have felt confident defending myself with in such a situation was a Beretta 21A in .22LR. I was younger when I got it, could still see the sights, and put a lot of rounds down the pipe. I was pretty accurate out to 25 feet with regularity and could ring pepper poppers out to 100 yards. .22 ammo was and is still a lot cheaper than .32, .380, 9mm, or .38 Special and concealment was incredibly important. The tactics of the two victims likely contributed to their demise. Even for “highly skilled” thugs, hitting a target moving off line is harder than a stationary target covering. Movement to cover or concealment and on the draw is even better. High risk business employees should be carrying. Many of the gun stores I frequent have employees who are packing OC or concealed. Not sure how good they really are. Training is a must for anyone carrying a firearm. Simply thinking “I’m armed,” doesn’t cut it.

I have been an LEO since 1982 when I ETS'd from the Army as an MP. I still work federal contracts. I have worked as a city cop and as a Border Patrol Agent. Early in my career it was common for off duty officers to be the victims of random robberies/assaults in the city I lived and worked in. They invariably lost the gunfight when armed with a J frame and if they survived, they immediately upgraded.

I came to the opinion early that when I bought any gun for carry I would ask myself "Is this the gun I want if I get into a gunfight". That has served me well. Now I carry a Sig P365 and feel that I am adequately armed.

The innocent victim of the pawn shop robbery was a neighbor of mine. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. R.I.P.!

The only time I was in a gunfight where I discharged my weapon I did not have a choice of my carry gun. It was an issued S&W Model 66-2, four inch, loaded with 158 grain JHP .38 +P ammo. It was loaded with six rounds and I did not have a reload. Three rounds from my gun (and a bunch from the other officers, the vast majority of which did not hit their mark) stopped the threat. I never felt under gunned with my S&W revolver, but I did start carrying a 6 round reload after that.

Nanuk said:

I have been an LEO since 1982 when I ETS'd from the Army as an MP. I still work federal contracts. I have worked as a city cop and as a Border Patrol Agent. Early in my career it was common for off duty officers to be the victims of random robberies/assaults in the city I lived and worked in. They invariably lost the gunfight when armed with a J frame and if they survived, they immediately upgraded.

I came to the opinion early that when I bought any gun for carry I would ask myself "Is this the gun I want if I get into a gunfight". That has served me well. Now I carry a Sig P365 and feel that I am adequately armed.

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Richard Coker was armed with a 5-shot J-frame; he used it to fire one fatal shot to the chest of his attacker, who suddenly produced a pistol and disarmed Coker of his primary weapon, a Model 19. Unfortunately, the perpetrator, who had no criminal record of any kind, fired simultaneously and killed Coker.

Yes. I trained with Jeff Cooper (Gunsight Orange) many years ago. I have also passed on what I learned to others. Train with your carry gun. Live in Yellow, and, Law Dog is right. Practice head shots.

DVC

Dump1567 said:

Defense Atty's are really good at not redacting that info. on the Police report copy they give their clients who are usually in custody.

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When I was an assistant DA I was contacted by a defense attorney. She advised she was no longer representing "elvis" his real name. She said she had an ethical obligation not only to withdraw but that I should take pre=cautions to protect myself. She would not say one word more. Just you should take precautions to protect yourself from this guy.

So, when his day came in court, I had a Walther PPKs in my pocket, my investigator in the audience behind the defendant, and a deputy in uniform on the far side of the court room, he was always in the room, but part of our plan that day.

But, it got funny. I felt I had an obligation to alert the judge, so I approached the bailiff and asked to speak privately with the judge, she said, no way, he is busy. So, I explained to her that there might be an incident. She laughed and said she would tell the judge. And then said, not to worry, anybody pulls a gun, the judge will shoot them in the head, he carries a 9mm under the robe.

So, they called his case and all went well. He acted a fool and tried to argue with the judge about the law and the case. It did not go well for him. I remember the judge asking him, who he thought new more about the law, a judge or a defendant with no legal training. His arguments went down hill from there.

He did not get a chance to go back to his car or anything like that, because he went to jail.

He made bail and went on the run until he was picked up a year or so later driving a truck in another state. And that was funny too. A trooper in Tennessee I think pulled him over for a traffic violation. When he saw my warrant he made the arrest and impounded the truck which was towed to a lot for storage. The company that owned the truck did not find out for a few days. It was loaded with frozen chickens.

And such is life.

Law-dog said:

Perhaps the most relevant comment on here. Most of the homicides I investigated were one shot gun fights. At least only one dead guy and he did not get a shot off.

A robbery where you are a witness is not a gun fight. It is, you are a witness. And if they start the killing process, you are the key witness. There is no issue of protecting somebody's money, it is surviving that next 1 or 2 seconds. That's it.

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Excellent statement regarding time over ammo. As a retired career police officer with 14-years as an investigator, and a deadly force instructor since 1989, I agree that time is more valuable than ammo. There is generally less of it, when it is available ot is compressed and the clock is running for all parties involved. And someone shooting another is not a gunfight, it is a shooting. When both parties are actively trying to kill each other, only then is it a fight-for-life.

Try to avoid being in areas that look hinky. Try to carry myself erect and head on the swivel but not too obviously. If eyes lock onto suspicious individual, wait to see if they look and do not stare but move eyes to another view but don't forget to scan them again or remove myself from the space. Feel the way you carry yourself can be a deterrent to those up to no good. I don't mean all puffed up like you are looking for trouble. Yes, carry with confidence and develop the skill to be decisive and know when and how to react to a threat if the time comes and none know when that may be. Not a bad thing to remove yourself from a suspicious area.

rockquarry said:

Yes, that happened. But all following that incident have not.

I don't know how you can further break down "reasonable preparedness" in terms that are simpler. Having one handgun that you are very familiar with is a start which includes being able to shoot well at varying distances. Ammo matters little if you become proficient; just shoot the ammo that works best for you and that's not necessarily what the YouDupers recommend. Far less emphasis on gunfighting, second guns, lots of ammo, multiple armed bad guys, shooting through walls, cars, bullet proof vests, etc. and other preposterous and incredibly unlikely imagined schemes.

A law enforcement or military role is not what civilian concealed carry is about, but it's almost impossible for some to limit their imaginations to such a parameter. I guess it's boring to do so, hence the extremist and unrealistic attitude toward civilian concealed carry.

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Very Well Said

Shibadog said:

Very Well Said

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Thank you, but I'm certainly in a minority these days.

rockquarry said:

Thank you, but I'm certainly in a minority these days.

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Too many would’ve Rambo’s and Walter Mitty’s in the world. IF I was a cop, deliberately going into harms way in sketchy place, sure more firepower might be a good idea. For a typical civilian who is looking to avoid trouble, not so much. Ibelive it was Col. Cooper who said “if you can’t stop a thug or two with 7 rounds you don’t need more ammo, you need to learn to shoot”

Shibadog said:

Too many would’ve Rambo’s and Walter Mitty’s in the world. IF I was a cop, deliberately going into harms way in sketchy place, sure more firepower might be a good idea. For a typical civilian who is looking to avoid trouble, not so much. Ibelive it was Col. Cooper who said “if you can’t stop a thug or two with 7 rounds you don’t need more ammo, you need to learn to shoot”

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I've never been a Jeff Cooper follower, but I guess he said something worthwhile on occasion.

I can conjure up no scenario where I would run towards gunfire.

My prime directive is to get me and mine out of harms way as expeditiously as possible.

Rustyt1953 said:

I can conjure up no scenario where I would run towards gunfire.

My prime directive is to get me and mine out of harms way as expeditiously as possible.

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Yes, there's certainly nothing wrong with using logic and good judgement...

WCCPHD said:

The only time I was in a gunfight where I discharged my weapon I did not have a choice of my carry gun. It was an issued S&W Model 66-2, four inch, loaded with 158 grain JHP .38 +P ammo. It was loaded with six rounds and I did not have a reload. Three rounds from my gun (and a bunch from the other officers, the vast majority of which did not hit their mark) stopped the threat. I never felt under gunned with my S&W revolver, but I did start carrying a 6 round reload after that.

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I put that in the category of you don't know what you don't know. When I had to carry a revolver, I carried multiples, reloads and a 12 gauge.

Shibadog said:

Too many would’ve Rambo’s and Walter Mitty’s in the world. IF I was a cop, deliberately going into harms way in sketchy place, sure more firepower might be a good idea. For a typical civilian who is looking to avoid trouble, not so much. Ibelive it was Col. Cooper who said “if you can’t stop a thug or two with 7 rounds you don’t need more ammo, you need to learn to shoot”

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Only 2 times you may have too much ammo, if you are swimming or on fire.

Reloads in a semi auto are as much about clearing a malfunction as having extra ammo. That being said, good quality magazines and ammo significantly reduce malfunctions.

Dump1567 said:

I think anyone involved in a shooting will wish they had the biggest gun possible and more rounds than they need.

One of the YouTubers I watch was all about his 6 shot Ruger LCR in .327 Fed Mag. Up until he had a road range incident and started carry his M&P .40 with him in the car.

I love the idea of small guns, but always leave the house with a Glock 19 size handgun on my hip. Backed-up usually by a J frame. But I’m 6’4”, 210, so carrying a larger gun doesn’t bother me.

I was having back pain one day and carry my full-size steel frame 1911 was giving me issues. I switched to my Kimber Lightweight full size .45 for the rest of the day. Problem solved.

There are occasions where I will carry a 6 shot medium frame revolver since I’m a “gun guy” and like to carry different guns. But I’ll still back it up with another gun. And I won’t do it if I know I’m going into town, just usually local in the nicer area I live in.

But everyone has to make the right decision for themselves. Personally, I need to be more in condition “Yellow”. But it’s hard to do when your head is buried in the gun display case.

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Dump, I'm with you on that. The steel frame Gov't model started getting a little heavy in my old age. Plus the fact that my ass is disappearing and even with a good belt, I can't keep my pants up. I tried wearing suspenders under my outer shirt, but soon realized that was a real pain. Have to almost get undressed to go to the head. I still do some work for a major ammo maker and do wound ballistic workshops. I've shot a lot of 9mm and have come to the conclusion the 9, with modern bullets, has become a very viable defense round. We see this backed by anecdotal real world shootings. I decided to build my self a LW Commander sized pistol in 9mm. Single stack 9mm's have always been know to have feeding issues due to OA cartridge length and the fact it's a tapered case. As long as I used the new Wilson designed 9 mags there wasn't an issue but feeding wasn't as smooth as I like. So I got another Barsto barrel and converted the pistol to .38 Super. I have really grown to love that cartridge and it feed slicker than goose.... well you know.