Yes if pocket carry I have a Kimber K6S .357 carried with magnums. If belt carry I have my .22 TCM that hits like a ton of bricks and has 17 rounds. But more important is situational awareness, I'm retired LE and have it in spades. I tend to forget most people don't as my son owned a game store and was the victim of a snatch and grab robber of an expensive system. I reviewed the video and noticed something. After my son put the system on the counter the suspect did not examine it. Instead he walked to the door and looked both ways and then walked back. He could only have been looking for the police and it would have been an automatic red flag for me. But my son and wife totally missed it.
The unavoidable gun fight. Are you confident with your handgun choice?
- Thread starter Dump1567
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cowboy94916
Member
None of us know how we will react in a situation armed or not. I follow Jeff Coopers teachings and try to be aware of my surroundings and prepared to act. Will I, I have no idea, hope to never have to find out.
To that end I train weekly with revolvers of various calibers and sizes, all S&W. Why? Simple familiarity of operation and reloads. I also train weekly with pistols all configured with 1911 manual safety for simple reason again familiarity of operation. I used to own various styles of auto's and safeties and colt revolvers but when doing some drills related to knife attack, I decocked or failed to automatically release safety and fire. Fatal error. Net result sold anything that I had to think about the operation. Now when I draw a weapon it is always operated witout thought as to operation and function. Only thinking required is wether to shoot or not. Fun house drills are highly educational for that.
In doing so over last 40 plus years. I am always comfortable and confident in whatever I am carrying.
Parabellum!
To that end I train weekly with revolvers of various calibers and sizes, all S&W. Why? Simple familiarity of operation and reloads. I also train weekly with pistols all configured with 1911 manual safety for simple reason again familiarity of operation. I used to own various styles of auto's and safeties and colt revolvers but when doing some drills related to knife attack, I decocked or failed to automatically release safety and fire. Fatal error. Net result sold anything that I had to think about the operation. Now when I draw a weapon it is always operated witout thought as to operation and function. Only thinking required is wether to shoot or not. Fun house drills are highly educational for that.
In doing so over last 40 plus years. I am always comfortable and confident in whatever I am carrying.
Parabellum!
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
I am a retired cop and just from life experiences I know you sometimes can not pick the best situation. The gunfight happens and you want to survive it.
Having been in 4 law enforcement jobs, I have enjoyed being in dicey situations and investigating many others including those with deceased players. In my own experience there was no time to be situationally aware, things happen fast. Three times, I could have died, all were later at night, one guy tried to stab me in the neck with a boot knife, another had a 44 mag and reached for it under his jean jacket.
Things happen fast. In the pawn shop event, if you witness a perp shoot the clerk in the head, you are next, you are a witness and only a fool would let you live.
You cannot draw against the drop and expect to survive. Once he points the gun at you, he is going to shoot you, even if you shoot him also, that is reality, his brain is in motion and he will continue to try and shoot where his brained already made the plan.
The old shoot in the torso at that point is dumb, in that case you have one good shot, maybe 2 more before you go down. In reality, you need a brain shot, a head shot of any kind will do. The only proper response, if you cannot dive out a window or door, is a quick shot to his head to stop brain function. Even a miss is better than not shooting or a center torso shot. Why? Because a bullet zooming by an ear may just be enough to distract him enough for your second round to hit the head, or the third round.
If you do not train for head shots as part of your training, you should not expect to win any such battle. Getting murdered in a pawn shop or on the street is not anything we should want. But in cases like this, shooting the attacker in the brain is the appropriate response.
As ECD gun guys, we are not warriors like some of us were in the military, but a warrior response in a case like that is the only way not to die in that parking lot or pawn shop. Just reality. Practice those head shots, it is a necessary skill.
Things happen fast. In the pawn shop event, if you witness a perp shoot the clerk in the head, you are next, you are a witness and only a fool would let you live.
You cannot draw against the drop and expect to survive. Once he points the gun at you, he is going to shoot you, even if you shoot him also, that is reality, his brain is in motion and he will continue to try and shoot where his brained already made the plan.
The old shoot in the torso at that point is dumb, in that case you have one good shot, maybe 2 more before you go down. In reality, you need a brain shot, a head shot of any kind will do. The only proper response, if you cannot dive out a window or door, is a quick shot to his head to stop brain function. Even a miss is better than not shooting or a center torso shot. Why? Because a bullet zooming by an ear may just be enough to distract him enough for your second round to hit the head, or the third round.
If you do not train for head shots as part of your training, you should not expect to win any such battle. Getting murdered in a pawn shop or on the street is not anything we should want. But in cases like this, shooting the attacker in the brain is the appropriate response.
As ECD gun guys, we are not warriors like some of us were in the military, but a warrior response in a case like that is the only way not to die in that parking lot or pawn shop. Just reality. Practice those head shots, it is a necessary skill.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Sometimes you don’t get the chance or choice.
Watch the Investigation Discovery Channel and you’ll see that serious crime occur even in safe places like Mayberry and Petticoat Junction.
Speak for yourself bro. I had a heart attack almost exsctly a year ago. I pay A LOT of attention to my cardiovascular health.
There was a guy who is no longer with us who used to post here frequently under the name 18DA1.
He claimed to have investigated over 200 homicides in his career and I don't have any reason whatsoever to doubt him. One of the most common things I heard him say (or read him saying) was "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets". He said it over and over and over again. He said every time this discussion came up.
As stated previously, He investigated over 200 homicides and again no reason to doubt him. I may not get this exactly right but I'm pretty sure he said only one that he investigated went over 10 Rounds fired by all parties involved. That one he said the victim was actually dead by the second shot and the guy that shot him stood over the corpse and emptied his magazine into it.
I've never been in a gun fight but I've witnessed four of them. Of the four none of them lasted longer than 30 seconds and I'm almost positive none of them went over 10 Rounds.
I predominantly carry a glock 19 and 2 reloads or Glock 26 and one reload depending on how I'm dressed. So 45 rounds or 27 rounds (12 round magazine in the 26 and a 15 round reload).
The only thing I'm "confident" of is that I'm going to run out of time before I run out of ammunition
He claimed to have investigated over 200 homicides in his career and I don't have any reason whatsoever to doubt him. One of the most common things I heard him say (or read him saying) was "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets". He said it over and over and over again. He said every time this discussion came up.
As stated previously, He investigated over 200 homicides and again no reason to doubt him. I may not get this exactly right but I'm pretty sure he said only one that he investigated went over 10 Rounds fired by all parties involved. That one he said the victim was actually dead by the second shot and the guy that shot him stood over the corpse and emptied his magazine into it.
I've never been in a gun fight but I've witnessed four of them. Of the four none of them lasted longer than 30 seconds and I'm almost positive none of them went over 10 Rounds.
I predominantly carry a glock 19 and 2 reloads or Glock 26 and one reload depending on how I'm dressed. So 45 rounds or 27 rounds (12 round magazine in the 26 and a 15 round reload).
The only thing I'm "confident" of is that I'm going to run out of time before I run out of ammunition
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Professional training significantly increases your odds of success.
Some of us know how we react based on past experiences and continuing training.
The Statistics show (as was proven at this incident) that the majority of people who are killed in a robbery are those that tried to resist. I think too that once you spook the criminal they start shooting at everyone that gets in their way when they leave in a hurry.
The clerk not only succeeded in getting himself killed but also an innocent bystander as well simply because he chose money over life and decided to shoot it out. We still do not know if the bullet that killed the bystander actually came from the clerks gun or the criminals gun in a deliberate act or an accidental stray bullet from either gun that killed the bystander.
Although your chances are higher that you will be struck by lightning than be involved in a robbery by a criminal in a store the best route is not to engage in a gun battle but to take cover and only shoot it out if the criminal comes looking for you. Again highly unlikely considering the fact that the criminal wants the money and then wants to get away as soon as possible and not waste his time to go looking for other people to shoot.
Remember also that when the bullets start flying you can be sued if any innocent bystander is injured or killed in the crossfire which is highly likely in the confines of a crowded store as few stores are completely empty at any one time.
And even more strange but true is that if you succeed in wounding or killing the criminal, especially if he has only a knife his relatives can sue you for wrongful death or injury even though the criminal was clearly committing a crime at the time you shot him. You will probably win in the lawsuit but it will still cost you thousands for a lawyer and thousands more on the time off of work lost.
I might add that even Wyatt Earp and his Brothers were taken to court over the shoot out at the OK corral and that was during the days of the wild west when courts and juries were much more lenient towards Officers engaged in a shootout. If Wyatt and his brothers had not been law enforcement officers they just may have gone to prison over the shootout at the OK Corral. If the shootout had happened today in 2025 at the OK Corral the peace officers may have been sent to prison over an unjustified and/or illegal confrontation.
Some tips before going into a high crime area are always look at the cars in the parking lot. If you see a car parked backwards its a red signal that a criminal is planning a robbery and quick getaway by not having to back his car out of the parking lot.
If you see a lot of stickers plastered all over the store window blocking your view to the inside of the store be very cautious on entering the store because you will not be able to see a robbery that is now taking place and you just may walk smack dab into a robbery taking place.
And of course you must ask yourself the question "Is it really worth going into a store in the bad section of town" because the more you frequent such a store in a high crime area the higher the chances that someday you will walk in on a robbery in progress or be caught inside the store when a robbery goes down. Is looking for a "good deal" really worth getting your head blown off. We are not living in the country of even our Fathers let alone our Grandfathers, it's a different world out there today.
Again although its very unlikely you will ever be involved in such a shootout situation why take chances when you do not have to. I long ago quite going to a pawn shop in a town where once even my Grandfather and Father used to frequent and the pawn shop in question even stopped selling guns there. It's the current reality on how we are forced to live.
I worked a lot of murder cases and every violent crime you can think of, so after 20+ yrs of dealing with these violent pieces of sh”t on the street and in an interrogation rooms, I learned exactly what they are and how they think. They’re 100% predators who are always looking for prey. My mindset since those days has always been that I’m the super predator looking for the predators around me. I still can easily pick out the criminals when I’m out and about in society. They just stand out to me. If you’ve never dealt with violent people, it’s hard to wrap your brain around what I’m saying.
Ray Ray
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I've been carrying concealed since 1973 and I am so confident in my shooting ability, I'd be happy to show some lowlife how shooting accurately is important. Being a retired cop, it'll always be in me. I can't stand to see people taken advantage of. Every situation is different and you won't know how exactly you'll react until that moment. The brain puts everything in slow motion, but everything happens within seconds after the decision is made, it's over before you know it. Then one takes pause, shivering, because the adrenaline is still flowing and not ready to slow down. Less than a minute later everything is over. You know you did the right thing, as long as the right people have gone down. Hitting bystanders is a mortal sin, so do nothing if there's a chance of that. Listen to me, most of you know these things, I hope none have to experience it, it'll wake you up at nights. Be safe out there!
Interesting thread, especially for me being an Aussie and carrying is not an option here, I haven't read every reply, but i have a few questions and they're pretty general but if you want to satisfy my curiosity or critique my train of thought i appreciate the education, Aus and the USA are very different places despite the maccas and KFC....
So concealed carry, legal where you are (not everywhere i know) but do you have to wear a holster or can you carry in a pocket, handbag etc?
I have seen, on this forum, inside the waist holsters for snubby revolvers etc. but they all seem cumbersome and a quick safe draw might be difficult? especially under pressure?
Would you even try if the villain already has his gun drawn and ready? even if he's pointing it elsewhere?
There is no chance i would pull a gun to defend property, mine or an employers or any one else's, especially if the villain is obviously armed, they can have what they want, it's all replaceable.
Is open carry a thing anywhere? I would think open carry might lead to a larger weapon holstered correctly so therefore easier to access safely and faster?
If i were the customer hiding and was carrying i might definitely be tempted to shoot the villain in the back while he is preoccupied, no problem there, if it ends the threat i wouldn't lose a moments sleep either.
Here in Oz we don't even have castle laws and home invasions do happen, defending yourself in your home can lead to criminal charges, even civil action from the intruder, which is crazy but that's how it is. Having a license and hand guns doesn't allow me to shoot a home invader legally but if the safety my family is at risk the consequences ill be dealt with after, their safety supersedes any law that favours criminals ( And yes, i know by defending my family that makes ME a criminal but by necessity)...
So concealed carry, legal where you are (not everywhere i know) but do you have to wear a holster or can you carry in a pocket, handbag etc?
I have seen, on this forum, inside the waist holsters for snubby revolvers etc. but they all seem cumbersome and a quick safe draw might be difficult? especially under pressure?
Would you even try if the villain already has his gun drawn and ready? even if he's pointing it elsewhere?
There is no chance i would pull a gun to defend property, mine or an employers or any one else's, especially if the villain is obviously armed, they can have what they want, it's all replaceable.
Is open carry a thing anywhere? I would think open carry might lead to a larger weapon holstered correctly so therefore easier to access safely and faster?
If i were the customer hiding and was carrying i might definitely be tempted to shoot the villain in the back while he is preoccupied, no problem there, if it ends the threat i wouldn't lose a moments sleep either.
Here in Oz we don't even have castle laws and home invasions do happen, defending yourself in your home can lead to criminal charges, even civil action from the intruder, which is crazy but that's how it is. Having a license and hand guns doesn't allow me to shoot a home invader legally but if the safety my family is at risk the consequences ill be dealt with after, their safety supersedes any law that favours criminals ( And yes, i know by defending my family that makes ME a criminal but by necessity)...
Yes, I would be confident with my EDC kit.
I go to the pawn shops in Phoenix all the time. I'll probably be "Looking for a deal" tomorrow afternoon.
My attitude is. If it's my day, it's my day.
I've faced foreign troops, chased armed terrorists into dark alleys and played with IEDs. In the course of those actions. I've lived through a few shoot-outs. I'll tell you, I sure wish most where over quickly and limited to 10 rounds. I'd have a lot more brothers to call on the holidays. All this experience has given me situational awareness x10. I can spot a bad guy almost instantly. Once I do, I never take my eyes off them or anyone they talk to.
Stay alert! Stay alive!
~Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.~
Ernest Hemingway
I go to the pawn shops in Phoenix all the time. I'll probably be "Looking for a deal" tomorrow afternoon.
My attitude is. If it's my day, it's my day.
I've faced foreign troops, chased armed terrorists into dark alleys and played with IEDs. In the course of those actions. I've lived through a few shoot-outs. I'll tell you, I sure wish most where over quickly and limited to 10 rounds. I'd have a lot more brothers to call on the holidays. All this experience has given me situational awareness x10. I can spot a bad guy almost instantly. Once I do, I never take my eyes off them or anyone they talk to.
Stay alert! Stay alive!
~Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.~
Ernest Hemingway
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