The unavoidable gun fight. Are you confident with your handgun choice?

Rocketmedic40 said:

I think blind eyes were turned to nurses packing heat in Vietnam.

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Dunno about that, but I hired a former Marine E-6 for a project; she had an Iraq tour and said all the American females there carried serious knives, and they weren't for the hajjis.

biku324 said:

Dunno about that, but I hired a former Marine E-6 for a project; she had an Iraq tour and said all the American females there carried serious knives, and they weren't for the hajjis.

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That was my memory too; unfortunately sexual violence is a real threat and I totally understand packing self-defense tools.

Muss Muggins said:

I'm confused. One of these posts has you identifying as a female, another in a different forum has you carrying twice the ammo load of other soldiers and performing duties I thought were not available to females in the 60's. If I'm wrong, accept my apology . . .

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Well there you go making rash assumptions again so let me unconfuse you. I am female, back then I was 5'11" and in as good shape or better than a good portion of the men I served with. I was issued firearms because I demonstrated the ability to use one of them effectively. I did not haul my M14 or for that matter my M16 through the rice paddies, mountains and hills that others did. I was based at an airfield, where I worked perimeter security along with all the men and a few other women I served alongside. For those of you who have never been in combat, ammo is your life line. Run out of ammo and essentially you are, well since I have been chastised by the moderators for hiding nasty words with XXXXs and ****s, I will simply say, in a tight spot. I was capable and carried twice the base load but keep in mind I was not out where other soldiers were, slogging through rice paddies or climbing hills and mountains, nor did I have to carry it as far. I carried ammo pouches on a web belt slung securely around my waist. It wasn't all that difficult a load to carry. I don't know if you have noticed that the M14 shot 7.62 X 51 ammo. The new ammo is 6.8 mm x 51. To put in laymen's terms that everyone can understand 6.8 MM is simply put, the 270 bullet you shoot in your Winchester 270 rifle. It's lighter than the 308 caliber bullets shot in the M14 and considerably lighter than the 30-06 ammo that was the Military staple from WWI, WWII and Korea. the 6.8 mm or 270 is also extremely accurate, maybe even more accurate than the 30 caliber bullets of yesteryear and certainly more accurate than the 5.56 NATO rounds the military has been playing with since the 60s when we had the M16 shoved down our throats.

In closing, if the above has not unconfused you, as well as many other, "He Men!" who fail to recognize that many women are as or more capable than you are. Yes we served in combat zones and in combat. Defending an airfield is just as much combat as slogging through rice paddies or hot deserts.

Tabby Lynn said:

Well there you go making rash assumptions again so let me unconfuse you. I am female, back then I was 5'11" and in as good shape or better than a good portion of the men I served with. I was issued firearms because I demonstrated the ability to use one of them effectively. I did not haul my M14 or for that matter my M16 through the rice paddies, mountains and hills that others did. I was based at an airfield, where I worked perimeter security along with all the men and a few other women I served alongside. For those of you who have never been in combat, ammo is your life line. Run out of ammo and essentially you are, well since I have been chastised by the moderators for hiding nasty words with XXXXs and ****s, I will simply say, in a tight spot. I was capable and carried twice the base load but keep in mind I was not out where other soldiers were, slogging through rice paddies or climbing hills and mountains, nor did I have to carry it as far. I carried ammo pouches on a web belt slung securely around my waist. It wasn't all that difficult a load to carry. I don't know if you have noticed that the M14 shot 7.62 X 51 ammo. The new ammo is 6.8 mm x 51. To put in laymen's terms that everyone can understand 6.8 MM is simply put, the 270 bullet you shoot in your Winchester 270 rifle. It's lighter than the 308 caliber bullets shot in the M14 and considerably lighter than the 30-06 ammo that was the Military staple from WWI, WWII and Korea. the 6.8 mm or 270 is also extremely accurate, maybe even more accurate than the 30 caliber bullets of yesteryear and certainly more accurate than the 5.56 NATO rounds the military has been playing with since the 60s when we had the M16 shoved down our throats.

In closing, if the above has not unconfused you, as well as many other, "He Men!" who fail to recognize that many women are as or more capable than you are. Yes we served in combat zones and in combat. Defending an airfield is just as much combat as slogging through rice paddies or hot deserts.

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The USAF Security Police stacked NVA and VC pretty deep at those isolated posts securing 10,000 foot runways.

I hope that the airfield was not Da Nang, where they stored the agent orange. The dioxin levels in the soil were a direct cause of the glioblastoma that killed my oldest brother in 2022. He was a Marine battle damage repair tech and slept in a hammock stretched between the landing gear of the planes he repaired.
Diagnosed 8/28/2022, died 10/14/2022.
Symptoms were migraines and vertigo. The doctor told me, even if we could remove every cancer cell he would still be a vegetable, no chance of survival. A two mile perimeter was established and frequently sprayed with agent orange to suppress mortar attacks. All of this is from memory.
Winston Rawlins Greenwell RIP brother.
Also my good gun searching buddy
Charlie Bowles RIP
At DaNang the dioxin levels were 285,000 parts per TRILLION. In the US it's declared a EPA superfund site at 17 parts per trillion.
This is all from old memories, I have looked up nothing I don't already know.
I pray for everone who was there.
My dead brother wanted top go to Nam and hunt people. He shot 249 of 250 at Parris Island and talked to snipers there including Carlos Hathcock. His wife stopped it cold when she told him, "if you do you will be single when you leave".

Tabby Lynn said:

Well there you go making rash assumptions again so let me unconfuse you. I am female, back then I was 5'11" and in as good shape or better than a good portion of the men I served with. I was issued firearms because I demonstrated the ability to use one of them effectively. I did not haul my M14 or for that matter my M16 through the rice paddies, mountains and hills that others did. I was based at an airfield, where I worked perimeter security along with all the men and a few other women I served alongside. For those of you who have never been in combat, ammo is your life line. Run out of ammo and essentially you are, well since I have been chastised by the moderators for hiding nasty words with XXXXs and ****s, I will simply say, in a tight spot. I was capable and carried twice the base load but keep in mind I was not out where other soldiers were, slogging through rice paddies or climbing hills and mountains, nor did I have to carry it as far. I carried ammo pouches on a web belt slung securely around my waist. It wasn't all that difficult a load to carry. I don't know if you have noticed that the M14 shot 7.62 X 51 ammo. The new ammo is 6.8 mm x 51. To put in laymen's terms that everyone can understand 6.8 MM is simply put, the 270 bullet you shoot in your Winchester 270 rifle. It's lighter than the 308 caliber bullets shot in the M14 and considerably lighter than the 30-06 ammo that was the Military staple from WWI, WWII and Korea. the 6.8 mm or 270 is also extremely accurate, maybe even more accurate than the 30 caliber bullets of yesteryear and certainly more accurate than the 5.56 NATO rounds the military has been playing with since the 60s when we had the M16 shoved down our throats.

In closing, if the above has not unconfused you, as well as many other, "He Men!" who fail to recognize that many women are as or more capable than you are. Yes we served in combat zones and in combat. Defending an airfield is just as much combat as slogging through rice paddies or hot deserts.

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What was my last rash assumption? And it seemed like a reasonable question to ask if a woman would hump twice as much ammo as a man. Might oughta take the chip off your shoulder. As I mentioned, if I was wrong, I apologize . . .

greenwellg said:

I hope that the airfield was not Da Nang, where they stored the agent orange. The dioxin levels in the soil were a direct cause of the glioblastoma that killed my oldest brother in 2022. He was a Marine battle damage repair tech and slept in a hammock stretched between the landing gear of the planes he repaired.
Diagnosed 8/28/2022, died 10/14/2022.
Symptoms were migraines and vertigo. The doctor told me, even if we could remove every cancer cell he would still be a vegetable, no chance of survival. A two mile perimeter was established and frequently sprayed with agent orange to suppress mortar attacks. All of this is from memory.
Winston Rawlins Greenwell RIP brother.
Also my good gun searching buddy
Charlie Bowles RIP
At DaNang the dioxin levels were 285,000 parts per TRILLION. In the US it's declared a EPA superfund site at 17 parts per trillion.
This is all from old memories, I have looked up nothing I don't already know.
I pray for everone who was there.
My dead brother wanted top go to Nam and hunt people. He shot 249 of 250 at Parris Island and talked to snipers there including Carlos Hathcock. His wife stopped it cold when she told him, "if you do you will be single when you leave".

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Two brothers-in-law and a close friend from contracting all had AO-specific prostate cancer from Vietnam caught early by the VA. Both BILs recovered completely; my friend recovered from the cancer but developed ALS - the VA is still taking responsibility for his care and even modified his home and got him a wheelchair-capable van.

My friend still says he would rather have cancer and ALS at age 76 than to have been dead in dense jungle at 19. He's the real deal.

Muss Muggins said:

What was my last rash assumption? And it seemed like a reasonable question to ask if a woman would hump twice as much ammo as a man. Might oughta take the chip off your shoulder. As I mentioned, if I was wrong, I apologize . . .

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Your apology is accepted. As for the chip, when men quit running down women and their accomplishments, I will gladly let one of you brush it off my shoulder.

ALS basically is slow suffocation. One of my best customers a retired Air Force pilot died of that disease (invited me to his last life celebration party) as did Lou Gehrig. I remember Gehrigs speech. I also vividly remember the Bank robbers in LA. I think they (the police) were borrowing rifles from civilians to stop the robbers. Ricocheting bullets off pavement was how the Brits stopped Italian tanks in WW2 as well as many other cases after those and probably some before.
I have not been following the recent 6.5 MM military ammo developments Tabby Lynn. We did reload a Newton cartridge that used an 06 case necked down to .256 Newton. Is the 6.5 (.270) based on the 5.56 case and more modern powder developments? My brother worshipped the M14 and hated the M16. He qualified with the M14, 249/250.

EDIT yes IRON SIGHTS

Rustyt1953 said:

In the highly unlikely event that I find myself still standing after a SD shooting the last things on my mind will be;

1: what's in my bloodstream.

2: have the innards of my gun been altered.

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I agree AND will add that in the highly unlikely event I find myself needing to do some SD shooting the last things on my mind will be

1: what's in my bloodstream.

2: have the innards of my gun been altered.

It is good to hash a lot of this stuff out in your head, Although plans often don't survive long in an emergency, I have found that pieces of the plan can come in handy.

I have never been involved in a gun fight, but I have been involved in some really serious OH **** moments and know I don't lose my head.

Here is one just for an idea.
I knew how to shut down a drilling rigs draw works and rob the momentum out of it. But, had never needed to do it. Came on shift one fine night and immediately went out on the floor to do a connection right away. Pulled up the Kelly and the "worm" latched his tongs on to the kelly pipe and I hit the power to them to make the initial break, then bumped the rotary table to spin the string of pipe in the hole off the kelly. The tongs swung around but, hot dam they didn't stop when they should have (previous crew failed to connect their cable snub lines at the end of their trip) so I had a couple hundred tons of pipe slowly rotating with this new kid (the worm) was hanging on the tongs which were going to swing around and the pull lines were going to come around behind him wrap him up. I turned to the controls and kicked out the main clutch, then kicked in the draw works drum clutch as I slammed down the brake handle hard, this robbed all the inertia out of the tons spinning gears and chain in the draw works, then I slammed the rotary clutch back in to dead head the rotary table against the draw works and blocks as the kid was screaming "help me". The cable had his sucked up against the pipe, but it had stopped before it came tight and cut him in half. Thank you Benny Holt, my old driller who had taught me what to do. I was shaking like a leaf, so was the worm. I wanted to kill the previous shift.

greenwellg said:

ALS basically is slow suffocation. One of my best customers a retired Air Force pilot died of that disease (invited me to his last life celebration party) as did Lou Gehrig. I remember Gehrigs speech. I also vividly remember the Bank robbers in LA. I think they (the police) were borrowing rifles from civilians to stop the robbers. Ricocheting bullets off pavement was how the Brits stopped Italian tanks in WW2 as well as many other cases after those and probably some before.
I have not been following the recent 6.5 MM military ammo developments Tabby Lynn. We did reload a Newton cartridge that used an 06 case necked down to .256 Newton. Is the 6.5 (.270) based on the 5.56 case and more modern powder developments? My brother worshipped the M14 and hated the M16. He qualified with the M14, 249/250.

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That is some really good shooting. Many of the people on Army and Marine Corps teams could clean the National Match course with scores of 800/800 and a bunch of Xs. I was never able to do that. The closest I ever came was 792/800 dropping the points in the 300 yard standing to prone rapid fire. This was while cleaning the 200 yard standing slow fire and 200 yard standing to sitting rapid fire and 600 yard slow fire prone. Keep in mind that this was all done by all of us with Iron sights. no optics to worry about bumping or batteries to go dead in the middle of a string of fire.

I've really heard a lot of good things about the 277 Sig Fury, which is what the M7 and the 6.8 x 51 is based on.

So it's the 308 case necked down to 270? The last time I really shot well was decades ago. I was sighting in an Interarms Mark X Mannlicher in 7MM for my younger brother. The rifle had set triggers and I was shooting older brothers reloads, a box of 50. It took 13 rounds at 100 yards. The last 3 shots measured less center to center than the width of the bullet .284. Whole group covered with a dime (center mass of the target). In another thread on this forum it is asked who on this forum would you like to visit. My answer would be:
You
Thanks for you service hero.
They didn't want me, hernia and a heart murmur.
If you ever pass through the Tidewater Va area the steak is on me.

greenwellg said:

ALS basically is slow suffocation. One of my best customers a retired Air Force pilot died of that disease (invited me to his last life celebration party) as did Lou Gehrig. I remember Gehrigs speech. I also vividly remember the Bank robbers in LA. I think they (the police) were borrowing rifles from civilians to stop the robbers. Ricocheting bullets off pavement was how the Brits stopped Italian tanks in WW2 as well as many other cases after those and probably some before.
I have not been following the recent 6.5 MM military ammo developments Tabby Lynn. We did reload a Newton cartridge that used an 06 case necked down to .256 Newton. Is the 6.5 (.270) based on the 5.56 case and more modern powder developments? My brother worshipped the M14 and hated the M16. He qualified with the M14, 249/250.

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Yes, several officers went to a local gunship, B&B Guns (long gone, sadly) and borrowed a number of rifles from the store staff, who were quite willing to help. Though those guns were brought to the scene, it's my understanding they were not actually utilized, as some sergeant or other supervisor wouldn't allow their use, because they weren't department approved guns that the officers had trained with, qualified with, etc.

So, until the LAPD SWAT team (known officially as LAPD, Metropolitan Division, D Platoon, which is how it's often referred to within LAPD--D Platoon) arrived, the responding officers had their handguns and shotguns, but no other long weapons. The subjects' rifles were converted illegally to full auto, and at least one was .308 caliber. They had a carload full of weapons.

The whole area was essentially under siege as this fight raged on, the subject firing hundreds of rounds, cartridges cases piling up, so the B&B fellows understood exactly the situation. The news video of the subjects deliberately engaging dozens of officers with full auto fire is still disturbing and a level of violence that had nothing to do with their wanting to get away. They wanted that fight more than they wanted the money from the bank or to escape.

Again, fortunately, no innocents were killed. But, a number of people were wounded and some quite seriously.

One other post North Hollywood anecdote: I've heard that one of the SWAT officers got "dinged"--that is, some form of disciplinary punishment--afterwards because he was wearing short pants. I think they were elsewhere that day, perhaps at the Academy where they were then based, and he rolled "Code 3" without taking the time to put on long pants. He's seen in that final fire fight with the second subject wearing shorts. Good on him, I'd say, to have his prioriites right! But, supposedly, he was out of uniform or some such other violation.

Officers from all over the city responded, including a young female officer I'd later marry. She and her partner were at the Academy when it started and definitely out of their patrol area. She wound up leading a number of officers in a search of the area for any potential third subject.

Anyway, I think the LAPD after action review can be found online and is worth reading, for anyone interested. One of its authors became D Platoon's commander before retiring and going on to be the Chief of the Burbank, CA PD.

This seems to be a left wing attack on ICE, CBP and other LEO who are wearing "masks" to cover their ID from cartels and international gangs.

If someone was observant or situational aware they would see ICE or BORDER PATROL printed across their black BDU's.

It's just the latest complaint by main stream media.

Sgt. Buzzard said:

This seems to be a left wing attack on ICE, CBP and other LEO who are wearing "masks" to cover their ID from cartels and international gangs.

If someone was observant or situational aware they would see ICE or BORDER PATROL printed across their black BDU's.

It's just the latest complaint by main stream media.

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Horse manure. None of my people ever were allowed to wear masks, all had to wear a badge prominently displayed and provide their name(s) to anyone who asked, in addition to wearing clearly visible name tapes or nameplates. We took millions in cash, drugs, real estate, and other forfeitures from a variety of cartels and street gangs, arrested them routinely, and even killed a few, and all this along the 180 miles of NM border with the Republic of Mexico.

Only cowards hide behind masks. That is a Putin-approved police tactic practiced by his allies in occupied Ukraine, in civil disobedience in Georgia, and in Transnistria.

steelslaver said:

I agree AND will add that in the highly unlikely event I find myself needing to do some SD shooting the last things on my mind will be

1: what's in my bloodstream.

2: have the innards of my gun been altered.

It is good to hash a lot of this stuff out in your head, Although plans often don't survive long in an emergency, I have found that pieces of the plan can come in handy.

I have never been involved in a gun fight, but I have been involved in some really serious OH **** moments and know I don't lose my head.

Here is one just for an idea.
I knew how to shut down a drilling rigs draw works and rob the momentum out of it. But, had never needed to do it. Came on shift one fine night and immediately went out on the floor to do a connection right away. Pulled up the Kelly and the "worm" latched his tongs on to the kelly pipe and I hit the power to them to make the initial break, then bumped the rotary table to spin the string of pipe in the hole off the kelly. The tongs swung around but, hot dam they didn't stop when they should have (previous crew failed to connect their cable snub lines at the end of their trip) so I had a couple hundred tons of pipe slowly rotating with this new kid (the worm) was hanging on the tongs which were going to swing around and the pull lines were going to come around behind him wrap him up. I turned to the controls and kicked out the main clutch, then kicked in the draw works drum clutch as I slammed down the brake handle hard, this robbed all the inertia out of the tons spinning gears and chain in the draw works, then I slammed the rotary clutch back in to dead head the rotary table against the draw works and blocks as the kid was screaming "help me". The cable had his sucked up against the pipe, but it had stopped before it came tight and cut him in half. Thank you Benny Holt, my old driller who had taught me what to do. I won theas shaking like a leaf, so was the worm. I wanted to kill the previous shift.

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I call this buying your ticket to heaven. You saved that kids life because you LISTENED LEARNED and GAVE a DAMN.
Situational awareness, knowledge, and instant action, made YOU the ANGEL on that day. Only the birth of your child can be better than that simple act done with precision and conviction.
I have no children of my own, but I may have saved that childs life on that day. Maybe there is no heaven, but I like hedging my bets.

Tabby Lynn said:

Your apology is accepted. As for the chip, when men quit running down women and their accomplishments, I will gladly let one of you brush it off my shoulder.

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To be clear, you still haven't faced a criminal in a true self defense situation that wasn't an armed conflict not exactly governed by the rules of war . . .

Sgt. Buzzard said:

This seems to be a left wing attack on ICE, CBP and other LEO who are wearing "masks" to cover their ID from cartels and international gangs.

If someone was observant or situational aware they would see ICE or BORDER PATROL printed across their black BDU's.

It's just the latest complaint by main stream media.

Click to expand...

Or a left-wing attack on unidentified people disappearing American citizens and lawful permanent residents, into foreign prisons and swampy concentration camps…and using breaching charges to terrorize citizens involved in MVCs that ICE caused…but let’s not get political in here too much.

My wife is Hispanic and an “anchor baby”. We’ve had to discuss what to do if an ICE team shows up and tries to “detain” her. It’s a pretty horrible thought for an American in America to have.

Well, you are technically correct, but what is your point? How many confrontations have you been in, and survived? How many times have you been shot and survived? Mr Muss, you have no point. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

That's it. This conversation is over.

greenwellg said:

I can spot a criminal driving down the highway.

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Cowpies.
As I think I stated in this tread before (I'm too lazy to check to make sure) retired 25 years from a max. security prison. Some of the seemingly nicest people you ever want to meet are in prison. By all means believe what you will but you are condemning a lot of good people and missing some of the worst. It is not always the young man with his pants down below his rear, hat on backwards flashing "gang" signs. It's your neighbor that gets stoned and put his baby in the oven to dry it off or kills his wife and mother-in-law over the lawn mower. How about the nice kids next-door that you have known all their lives, that take it in their heads to beat you half to death then put your body in the freezer and leave you there to finish the job. Maybe your own grandson that literally takes a hammer and nails, nailing your feet to the floor while ransacking your home, then uses the same hammer to bash your head in when you don't have enough $$$$. ALL TRUE STORIES.