Banned Firearm

It came to the club's attention the other day that a few of the pistol shooters at the indoor range that are usually involved with timed shooting events are using the Sig P320. I was not up to date on its issues and looked into it during the meeting. I figured if the IDPA banned it from any of their events that was good enough for me and I seconded a motion to remove it from range use until the issue was resolved. As unpopular as it may seem, our insurance liabilities are high as it is and we have lost our long time insurance agency because as they put it "insuring firing ranges is not in our personal interest." Currently the only other Firearm we have banned is anything that fires .50 BMG as well as anything full automatic which includes the mechanical assitance that fires more than one round per second. That is our range limit, double taps are not practiced as well as any firing from the holster, all shots are fired from the bench with one shot per second the maximum. We do have an action pistol league at the indoor range, what they do is their business.

Considering all the yahoos I've seen at ranges, indoor and outdoor, your range rules seem perfectly reasonable. And insurance restrictions are what they are.

2 weeks ago my club also implemented an "IMMEDIATE PROHIBITION/BAN of the presence and use of the Sig Sauer models P320, M-17, M-18 firearms, and all of their variants, (including, but not limited to, the Legion models), on ALL CLUB PROPERTY."

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I did not consider the insurance angle, but that makes sense.

I bought a M17 for my active duty grandson, it has only had a few hundred rounds through it. I had not heard of problems with the M17, but would like to know what they are!

Nightowl, I own a P320 in the M18 configuration. The problem is the P320, including the M17 and M18 variants with manual safeties, have had a large (over 100) number of reports of "uncommanded discharges."

We have a couple of threads on this. The issue is all over the internet.

Seven or eight of these reports involve the military versions with manual safety. There is a report of an M18, safety on, firing in the holster of a civilian guard at a Marine base in Okinawa. The report by the Marines states that there were witnesses to this, and a video.

I'm not happy about it, but have put up my M18 for the time being.

Our club put out an email stating that the 320 is not allowed on the property . Again , I can understand it from an insurance slant , but there's got to be more to this story . Granted I haven't been following this , only Sig I have is a 210 Target .

cherrypointmarine said:

..., only Sig I have is a 210 Target .

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Well, you're not suffering if that's your only Sig

Our (Canada) armed forces finally replaced their WWII-vintage BHPs with.... the Sig 320! Can't find it now but there was an article not long ago of them acknowledging reported AD issues with the 320 but as I recall they dismissed it as "a holster issue" and are keeping them. We'll see...

Nightowl said:

I bought a M17 for my active duty grandson, it has only had a few hundred rounds through it. I had not heard of problems with the M17, but would like to know what they are!

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If you search the https://smith-wessonforum.com/forums/firearms-knives-other-brands-general-topics.89/ forum you will find quite a lot of comment on the issues with the Sig P320/M17/M18 design. Suffice to say, there is a large question mark over the type, and in these litigious days, that's something you don't need at your range.

I don't know, seems like internet hype is causing a lot of panic decisions. I recall similar overblown internet hysteria over .40 caliber Glock Kabooms. Don't own a Sig and only know what I've read about the problem, but the internet's primary purpose is this world is to make mountains out of mole hills so I think what is really happening is different than the hype.

My range has also instituted a ban on the 320 plus the retail part of the business has pulled all the new ones and sent them back to Sig. I don't know what they did with the few used ones they had.
My older son has a specially marked M17 that Sig offered on his last/final deployment of his career with the combat patch and other markings. It's a commemoration as he also has a P14 Para Ordnance of all things from his first, 2006-2008. They both sit in his safe. He doesn't have faith in the M17 and the P14 is less than stellar even as a range gun.

Last Saturday at the range I shot, for the first time, a P320.
Wow.... I can see why this is such a popular handgun.
It felt perfect in my size large glove hands.
The recoil was very manageable.
It was very accurate.
Of the 50+ firearms I've shot over the past 5 years, that P320 is a very fine handgun.

However.... my very first firearm, a 1978 Colt Mark IV Series 70, will always be my favorite handgun.

I have a P320, had it for a few years. Never any sign of it being a problem at anytime. I see one poster mentioning it is the models with the manual safety that are the problem children, mine doesn't have that feature.
Just seem strange that it is only stories that say there is a problem but I have never heard of anybody that I know of in my circles that has any personal experience with it happening. I have not heard of any reports of at the club I belong to.

Re P320s with manual safeties, the point I was making above is that all P320s, including those with manual safeties, unfortunately, are suspect. They all share the same Fire Control Unit (FCU).

"I recall similar overblown internet hysteria over .40 caliber Glock Kabooms"

Gen. 2 Glock models 22 & 23 actually did blow up. I witnessed a Glock 23 blow apart at an indoor range years ago.

My Sig P250sc has raised a few eyebrows at two different ranges causing the RO's to inform me the P320's were banned there. I politely explained how to do a GOOGLE search on the two models and kept on shooting. Grip modules/barrels/magazines are interchangeable between certain variations of both models but they are not the same guns.

Our club in Scarborough has acknowledged the IDPA ban but has not outright banned the P320 as of yet.

I'd posted this in another thread, but it bears repeating here. The following agencies have now withdrawn the P320 from authorized use as a duty/training sidearm: San Antonio PD, Chicago PD, Oklahoma City PD, Oklahoma HP, San Francisco PD, Houston PD, Denver PD, Milwaukee PD, the National Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association, and the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission. I imagine that's not an exhaustive list. In addition, last month U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) issued an emergency, non-competitive requisition for Glock 19's to replace their P320's.

I don't suppose this mass switching out of the SIG's was done on a whim, there had to have been serious safety/liability concerns. The future of the platform may rest on what the military decides to do with their M17 and M18 variants. I do find it interesting that some of the above agencies traded in their P320's and that these were subsequently marketed to the general public.

ColbyBruce said:

"I recall similar overblown internet hysteria over .40 caliber Glock Kabooms"

Gen. 2 Glock models 22 & 23 actually did blow up. I witnessed a Glock 23 blow apart at an indoor range years ago.

My Sig P250sc has raised a few eyebrows at two different ranges causing the RO's to inform me the P320's were banned there. I politely explained how to do a GOOGLE search on the two models and kept on shooting. Grip modules/barrels/magazines are interchangeable between certain variations of both models but they are not the same guns.

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Aahh, range officers, you gotta love 'em. Other jokes they tell are "Get that magazine out!" when you are shooting an FN-49 and "Dump the live rounds out the bottom" when you are shooting an 03A3 bolt gun with a blind magazine.

Sig Sauer doubles down: https://www.police1.com/firearms/sig-sauer-sues-ore-police-training-board-over-p320-ban

I have to ask myself the question with as large a company as SIG is why have they not addressed this issue and had a recall?

Kinman said:

I have to ask myself the question with as large a company as SIG is why have they not addressed this issue and had a recall?

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They can't for many reasons. Primary amongst those reasons is they don't want the MHS PVTs made common knowledge. Just the snippets I've seen do not reflect well upon the 320, especially the M18 variant which seemed to not actually have passed on any measure other than price, which was bid before the evaluation started.

Has any expert or group of firearm experts proven the P320 is defective?
Has anyone been able to duplicate or create the spontaneous discharges by the gun itself?

"Has any expert or group of firearm experts proven the P320 is defective?
Has anyone been able to duplicate or create the spontaneous discharges by the gun itself?"

Bruce Gray of Grayguns, Inc. has done extensive research and testing on the P320 platform.

Goony said:

Sig Sauer doubles down: https://www.police1.com/firearms/sig-sauer-sues-ore-police-training-board-over-p320-ban

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I suspect qualified immunity will be claimed and Sig told to pound sand.

An honest to God "Accidental Discharge" is a very sobering experience. Anyone that has spent a good amount of time around firearms and handguns in particular has probably either experienced one first hand or been around someone that did. I had one take place with a Colt Mustang, since then I have learned that they had a nasty habit of going off while chambering a round from the magazine by way of slide release. When I returned the Mustang to the gunsmith I got it from in a trade he told me that it only took him fourteen loadings to have it drop the hammer. We have all heard about the reasons for carrying an old firing pin on the hammer Colt on an empty chamber, this was most commonly attributed to being dropped on the hammer and considering the angle required for that to happen puts the barrel pointed upward. I had a good friend discharge a cap ball revolver during a competition event, thankfully he was pointing it down range loaded and capped when he accidently let one fly. He is a great guy and excellent shot with pistol and rifle for many years in top contention for top shooter. We all get old and this gentleman, removed himself from the firing line, packed up his shooting box and retired from the event. He was actually running that month's shooting schedule on that Sunday, he finished running the event, announced winners in categories. The next month he showed up and as we were beginning to read the safety rules and other announcements he asked for the floor. He stood up and said that it was time for him to hang up his firearms and spend more time fishing with his grandkids. He contacted me privately to arrange for the disposal of his black powder collection, which was quite extensive and well put together. He just wanted everything to go to a good home where it would be appreciated, all funds donated to the muzzle loading club. I've got to give the guy a lot of credit for recognizing his failure to maintain discipline, he is advanced in his years as are most of us muzzle loaders, but it still takes a big guy to know when to hang it up.
If they hadn't taken my mother's driver's license away from her she would have continued driving with Macular Degeneration so bad she could only tell what color the lights were by their position, she was furious when they gave her an eye exam which she couldn't pass to save her soul. She had to sit within three feet of a television to have any idea what was going on and could only recognize if someone was standing on her porch that they were male or female.

Kinman said:

I have to ask myself the question with as large a company as SIG is why have they not addressed this issue and had a recall?

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They DID have a voluntary recall, which is why I don't understand
Glock certainly had more reports of their guns going off and they aren't banned anywhere that I'm aware of

The P320 voluntary recall was to correct the gun firing when dropped. The current "uncommanded discharge" issue is a separate, distinct issue.

I have one that I shoot in competition, never had a problem. But then again I told it not to get "expert" analysis from Facebook posts