Hostage situation: shoot or not?

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In the movies one often sees the bad guy with his gun to a hostage's head. Depending on the intended outcome, the hero either puts down and wins later, or shoots the criminal and wins immediately.

I know that movies/TV etc has very little to do with real life, therefore I have questions for the experienced LEOs, security guards etc:

1. How little/often does this occur in real life? Ie: is it even realistic to prep the brain for such a situation?

2. Is there anything one should keep in mind in preparation for such a situation?

3. Anything else?

(If I were to end up in something like this, I would probably be facing a seasoned and hardened criminal, or a drug addict, or a combination of both.)
 
I know of exactly one in 45 years.

In the '90s there was a bank robbery in Albuquerque - uniforms got there before the perps got out. A quick hostage-taking happened; an APD countersniper who rushed to the scene set up a hasty rest in a walled garden within less than 100 yards. He kept low over the stucco wall, so low his first shot stopped in the wall. He had a clear view in his scope, which was 1.5" above the barrel.

The perp, outside with a female with the Hollywood-style gun to her head, heard the shot but couldn't see the countersniper. Second shot hit him just over an eye and blew chunks everywhere (308 w/Spitzer SP).

The female bank employee sued for emotional distress from the blood-brain-bone-eyeball shower. Never heard how that came out.

There is/was video of this with both APD and NM DPS Training.
 
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Pretty much the very definition of a frivolous lawsuit, if you ask me.

As to the original question, the average human head is about 6" wide. If you are absolutely certain that -- under pressure and at the distance you are from the perp -- you can confidently and consistently keep your shots within less than 6" then you are probably safe taking the shot. If there is any doubt, though...
 
I would not want to be the LE SWAT sniper asked to take a shot at an adrenaline pumped criminal holding a handgun at the head of a hostage.

A 308 traveling a 2500 feet per second would take 0.12 seconds or 120 milliseconds to reach target at 100 yards. That’s about a blink of an eye.

If the round hits the “T area” of the brain (between eyes and bridge of the nose), it would instantly disconnect the brain from the rest of the body, and prevent a muscle reflex contraction that would pull the trigger of the handgun pointing at the hostage at the moment the bullet hits a different part of the criminal’s body.
 
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Denverd0n said:
Pretty much the very definition of a frivolous lawsuit, if you ask me.

As to the original question, the average human head is about 6" wide. If you are absolutely certain that -- under pressure and at the distance you are from the perp -- you can confidently and consistently keep your shots within less than 6" then you are probably safe taking the shot. If there is any doubt, though...
Click to expand...
 
Trying to shoot the weapon sounds like a REALLY bad idea to me! In the first place, the shot is ten times harder. In the second place, a ricochet is much more likely and might hit the hostage. In the third place, you might break the weapon and send pieces into the hostage.

I think the odds of the gun firing anyway, after a clean head shot, are WAAAAY less than the odds of things going horribly wrong if you try to shoot the weapon. Seriously, shooting the weapon out of the bad guys hand is practically the definition of Hollywood nonsense.
 
I remember seeing the ABQ sniper shot in training. The version I heard was the guy had AIDS and the woman got cut by flying chunkies. I do remember he missed twice by shooting directly into a wall in front of him after not compensating for scope height. Its on youtube.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-sniper/

I know an HRT guy shot a guy who had a kid on his shoulders.

I think its an extraordinarily rare shot for a sniper, and unheard of for a pistol toter.
 
I read an article by writer and retired police officer Rich Grassi on the Tactical Wire published on July 14 (https://www.thetacticalwire.com). While not about a hostage situation, it discussed police off duty responses and one department using an appropriate and interesting training scenario on range day back in the 70s. I recommend it as required reading.

In regard to a hostage situation - First and foremost, I would NOT advocate giving up your firearm to the bad guy(s). The bad guy needs the hostage alive as the hostage might be the only thing keeping him from being well ventilated... at least in his thinking.

Of equal consideration, what is your skill level that you could take that shot?

If your EDC is a .380 that is slightly smaller in overall profile than your wallet, or a five shot that you religiously practice at close distances when you fire it once every year or two that you can remember, you're probably better off not even letting them know you have a gun.
 
A decade or two back I remember a guy sitting in a chair in the roadway with a revolver in his hand saying he was going to kill himself. Lots of talking, after some time he leans forward and the revolver is in his hand between his knees. Police sniper shot the revolver out of his hand, he was not injured. One of those shots that just went right. I’m sure there is video somewhere.
 
Jimbo41 said:
A decade or two back I remember a guy sitting in a chair in the roadway with a revolver in his hand saying he was going to kill himself. Lots of talking, after some time he leans forward and the revolver is in his hand between his knees. Police sniper shot the revolver out of his hand, he was not injured. One of those shots that just went right. I’m sure there is video somewhere.
Click to expand...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=columbus+...i=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhECHpArQSg
 
  • Harry Temple: Alright, pop quiz. Airport, gunman with a hostage. He's using her for cover. He's almost to a plane. You're one hundred feet away.
  • [Jack doesn't respond]
  • Harry Temple: Jack?
  • Jack: Shoot the hostage.
  • Harry Temple: What?
  • Jack: Take her out of the equation. Go for the good wound and he can't get to the plane with her. Clear shot.
  • Harry Temple: You're deeply nuts, you know that? "Shoot the hostage."
 
stansdds said:
The police saved her life, then she sued the police. I'm just shaking my head.
Click to expand...
People see an easy opportunity to get a financial windfall/retirement nest egg and find it hard to resist; particularly after getting a few calls from certain bottom feeder ambulance chasers (no offense to cajunlawyer!) telling them how much money can be had just for the asking.
 
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She kissed her baby and went to work, and by close of business a guy’s head exploded next to her and sprayed her with AIDS brains. I hope she got a settlement.

I always hate shows that make “note jobs” seem like no big deal. I’ve talked to dozens of young girls who got robbed by note and never came back to their first “big person” job. I’m looking at you “Hell or High Water”.
 
While I never saw it happen, we used to practice shooting the “hostage taker” at the Range by folding one silhouette target in half and stapling it overlapping another silhouette target (to simulate a hostage taker using a Citizen for cover. Whenever someone hit the hostage it was referred to as “the Russian Method”.

I spent a lot of my own money practicing with my service weapons over the years just in case, but I’m glad I never had to “take the shot”.
 
sigp220.45 said:
She kissed her baby and went to work, and by close of business a guy’s head exploded next to her and sprayed her with AIDS brains. I hope she got a settlement.

I always hate shows that make “note jobs” seem like no big deal. I’ve talked to dozens of young girls who got robbed by note and never came back to their first “big person” job. I’m looking at you “Hell or High Water”.
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STRONGLY DISAGREE!
A settlement would indicate someone was at fault.
Who, besides the hostage taker, was at fault?

Sometimes you just gotta’ suck it up.
The woman should have been thankful she was alive, and given the sniper a big hug.
The department’s liability insurance cost would probably go up as a result of losing the suit if it amounts to much.
Maybe she should sue the perp’s estate for damages, if he had anything (not likely).
 
Phenix said:
STRONGLY DISAGREE!
A settlement would indicate someone was at fault.
Who, besides the hostage taker, was at fault?

Sometimes you just gotta’ suck it up.
The woman should have been thankful she was alive, and given the sniper a big hug.
The department’s liability insurance cost would probably go up as a result of losing the suit if it amounts to much.
Maybe she should sue the perp’s estate for damages, if he had anything (not likely).
Click to expand...
Maybe a jury agreed, maybe not. Who cares? I hope she got some dough. Its was fifty years ago.
 
Phenix said:
People see an easy opportunity to get a financial windfall/retirement nest egg and find it hard to resist; particularly after getting a few calls from certain bottom feeders (no offense to cajunlawyer!) telling them how much money can be had.
Click to expand...
If it's going to happen anywhere, it'll happen in Albuquerque; someone will sue.

 
Phenix said:
STRONGLY DISAGREE!
A settlement would indicate someone was at fault.
Click to expand...
Clearly you've never been named in a wrongful death lawsuit. The insurance company comes in, says "Here's what it's gonna cost us to defend this, here's what it'll cost us to settle. We're settling. If you want to keep going, you're on your own for legal fees and the eventual judgment . . "
 
Praise the hero. Mourn the dead. Kill the enemy.
Or, more precisely, in this case, Kill the enemy. Praise the hero. Mourn the dead.
Depending on the exact circumstances, a variation of these three basic actions will solve a lot of problems.
 
Muss Muggins said:
Clearly you've never been named in a wrongful death lawsuit. The insurance company comes in, says "Here's what it's gonna cost us to defend this, here's what it'll cost us to settle. We're settling. If you want to keep going, you're on your own for legal fees and the eventual judgment . . "
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I fortunately never was involved in an OIS or a wrongful death lawsuit but I have been sued. In two of the lawsuits the department refused to settle and never got past the deposition stage. (In the last case my department hired counsel was a retired Superior Court judge from another county and he was good!)
 
gym cat said:
Still absolutely no guarantee perp's weapon would not go off even with head shot.
Click to expand...
Yes, there generally is if the sniper knows his anatomy really well and hits CNS “T” in the head.
Still a real risky shot though. A lot of chance the perp moves his head slightly just as the shot broke.
Unexpected sudden head movement is the reason I gave up doing headshots on deer and most small game years ago. Never had any bad resulrs, butI figured itwas just a matter of time. RE
Muss Muggins said:
Clearly you've never been named in a wrongful death lawsuit. The insurance company comes in, says "Here's what it's gonna cost us to defend this, here's what it'll cost us to settle. We're settling. If you want to keep going, you're on your own for legal fees and the eventual judgment . . "
Click to expand...

I am well aware of how those things can go, as my wife has worked for a large, multi-state law firm for 18 years.
People who don’t really deserve money from people who don’t really deserve to be sued get paid off to just go away all the time.
Pretty unbelievable sometimes.
 
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