I must be crazy! (.45-70 story)

Seeing as this is the reloading forum, I though y'all might appreciate my insanity.

Crazy point #1: A guy with bum shoulders owns a .45-70.
Crazy point #2: Said guy has owned this rifle for about eight years and never got around to working up the best loads for it.
Crazy point #3: One post on a gun board and this guy suddenly becomes obsessed with working up these loads.

Ok, so I had this week off and decided to get after it.
The goal was to come up with some accurate loads in the 1200 to 1300 FPS range that wouldn't beat the crap out of my shoulder.

Last weekend: sat down at the bench with 3 bullets, 5 powders, 5 loading manuals, various internet printouts and started cranking out test loads.

Monday: Off to the range for accuracy testing. 14 loads, 5 rounds each. Testing was done at 50 yards mainly because my half blind old butt can't hit squat with iron sights at 100 yards anymore. Results were good. Narrowed down the possabilities. All I need to do now is run them across the chronograph.

Tuesday - thursday: Things happened. Rain, chores that needed doing, etc and so on. So no shooting or loading.

Friday: The club range where I shoot gets crowded on the weekends and some folks take a dim view of me taking the time to set up the chrony whereby cutting into their shooting. Not to mention all the ones that want to ask questions about the chrongraph, my rifle, loads, etc and cut into my time. Better get this done today.
8:00am: At the bench making the final test loads.
10:00am: Off to the range. Set everything up and shoot. Two of the loads are perfect. #3 is a bit too slow. maybe another half to one grain of powder?
Obessive Compulsive Disorder kicks in!
Noon: back home, grab a sandwich, crank out more test rounds.
1:00pm: back to the range. Set everything back up again. Velocity is better, but still not what I'm looking for. Accuracy suffers. CRAP!
2:30pm: back at home making yet another batch of test loads.
4:00pm: back at the range. Set everything up for the third time.
SUCCESS AT LAST!
5:00pm: back home, put everything away, sit on butt for the rest of the evening.

This weekend: clean rifle, make ammo, nurse sore shoulder.

I'd say that pretty much qualifies me a nuts. Don't you?
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For those intersted, here's the final results.

Rifle: Browning Model 1886 Saddle Ring Carbine 22" barrel.

Load 1: 350gr Tennessee Cartridge Co. Lead FP, 31.0grs H4198, velocity: 1262 fps

Load 2: 405gr Tennessee Valley Bullets Lead FP, 29.0grs IMR4198 velocity: 1237 fps

Load 3: 405gr Remington JSP, 31.0grs IMR4198 velocity: 1268 fps

All of these loads will group 1 1/2" or better @ 50yards out of my rifle. Someone with better eyes and shoulders could probably do better.
BTW: I also tested the Remington 405gr JSP factory load. It gave a velocity of 1242 fps. So my loads are right there with the factory ammo. However, groups ran in the 3-4" range in my rifle.

Howdy Grayfox,

I too shoot a Browning 1886 carbine using the Speer 400 grain JSP.

Try some XMP5744. It has a tendency to be very accurate in a lot of the large bore rifles.

I don't have a bum shoulder but I keep my loads around 1300 to 1400 FPS. Any faster is not all that flatter and much more recoil. The standard factory load [what I am shooting] will kill anything in the U.S.

I shot a 6x6 bull elk with mine at 10 yards. He quit.

XMP5744 was one of the powders I tried. I had always heard it was an excellent powder for the .45-70. It wasn't bad and I probably could have gotten a decent load out of it. But the powders I ended up with simply worked better in my rifle.

No good ever came out of hanging around normal people! For shoulder comfort try a slip on recoil pad while shooting from the bench. I have a Marlin 1895 CB and like to launch 405's fast. From the bench this thing pounded the crap out me, got a slip on recoil pad and it's much better. When done bench shooting, just slip it off.

Vulcan Bob said:

No good ever came out of hanging around normal people! For shoulder comfort try a slip on recoil pad while shooting from the bench. I have a Marlin 1895 CB and like to launch 405's fast. From the bench this thing pounded the crap out me, got a slip on recoil pad and it's much better. When done bench shooting, just slip it off.

Click to expand...

Golden years? My rosy red rectum! The only thing that I produce that is golden is dropped off in the nearest porcelain repository at every opportunity (and I never pass up the opportunity, at my age).

I shoot .45-70 quite a lot, using original US Springfield rifles model 1873 and model 1884. I use IMR 4198 almost exclusively with Lee 500 grain gas check bullets.

I like to shoot the 400-meter metallic silhouettes ("boom", long pause, "clank"). I have also killed a couple of Rocky Mountain elk with these rifles and loads. No such thing as a blood trail, they just collapse and wait for old Grampa to hike up to them.

Got my new eyeglasses last week! That should make the critters nervous this season, since I have plenty of .45-70 ammo on hand.

That Browning is a nice rifle. I have one with really nice wood on it. I'm not crazy about the butt plate, though. A nice soft recoil pad would have been friendlier!

I have 2 bolt action 45-70's built on Siamese Mauser actions. Very similar to the 1898 Mauser design, originally chambered for an 8mm rimmed cartridge. Very strong. One has an E.R. Shaw barrel and a 1.5X5 Leupold on it, the other has a Lyman receiver sight. I used to win turkey shoots with the scoped one and a home-cast RCBS gas-checked slug of about 400 grains over some IMR-4198 powder. That big .458" bullet sure made the string you had to cut a lot wider and easier to hit than most of the folks trying to hit it with scoped .22 centerfire varmint rigs!

.45-70 is a great cartridge!

Naw, you don't sound crazy. You just sound like a retired guy that likes to find the best load for your rifle. Isn't it great that we can now have the time to to it? When I was working up loads for my .308 HB Remington 700BDL with the 155 gr. Palma Match for 600 yard shooting which I am determined to do this year, I determined the hard plastic butt plate on the rifle "needed" to be replaced with a Kick Eze recoil pad. I got turned on to these with my Browning Sporting Clays 12 ga. You can shoot all day without much problem with one of these on your gun.

Buff, you're right. That curved steel butt plate is the killer.
Not long ago I got a leather butt stock cover from Lever Gun Leather. The guy does beautiful work and it fits perfectly.
I was really amazed at how much it helped. It really doesn't add much in the way of padding. I believe what it does do is round off the sharp edges of the butt plate so that it doesn't "bite" so much while shooting. I highly recommend it.

Not crazy, it's fun! I spent a very pleasant hour this morning with my 45/70 Marlin, trying to make it shoot 405 grain bevel base bullets. It likes everything but bevel base, flat base and gas check bullets shoot good, not so much with the bevel base.

I bumped up the velocity to 1500 FPS with some 3031 powder, the bullets still key hole and tumble. I'm thinking of giving up on this particular bullet, and sticking with what the rifle likes. I wish these bullets had worked, as they were very inexpensive, something like $32 for 250. I think I'll put my money into some bullet casting equipment, and cast some flat base bullets for my Marlin.

I have never had so much fun reloading for a rifle as I have with my 45/70!

Grayfox said:

I'd say that pretty much qualifies me a nuts. Don't you?

Click to expand...

I don't think you are crazy, but then I'm going through roughly the same thing with a .30-06. 50 rounds of aught-six from a light rifle with a hard butt pad in an afternoon can be rough on the shoulder.

My "plinking" load for .45-70 is a 535 grain cast RN with 19 grains of 2400. I get right at 1200 fps from a 22" barrel, and its not too hard on the shoulder. With the same powder charge and a 405 grain cast RN I get slightly less velocity (~1175 fps) and a lot less recoil.

I shoot a fair amount of 300 grain Sierras in my Ruger No. 1.

36.5 grains of IMR 4198 chronos 1520. 50.0 grains of IMR 4198 chronos 2100. The 36.5 grain load is plenty powerful for me.

IMR has proven to be a good powder for my rifles in .45-70 and .38-55.

For load development, buy the cheap Lee "C-frame" press and mount it to the shooting bench with 3 #10 screws with washers or 2 small c-clamps. Bring powder scale, funnel, and primed / belled mouth brass to the range. Install your bullet seating die in the press and you can develop loads all afternoon.

The Lee press weighs 2 pounds and does a great job seating bullets.

Well, I think you're crazy. Anyone fool enough to have .45-70s with steel butt plates has lost his mind. I prefer to think of mine as "recoil absorbing steel butt plates." It doesn't make it hurt any less.

I've retired my 1884, the family farm gun purchased back in 1906 or 7 or 8. The receipt has been lost, but it came from the gubmint for $1.50. It was my grandfathers gun, my fathers gun, and maybe I'll skip a generation and pass it to my grandson. I still have some "commercial" hand loads, worked up at a gunshop in the 1960s. Bare minimum velocity. You can see the base of the bullet, as it meanders away from you.

Browning did us all a huge favor when they came out with the B78, but they messed up with the butt plate. I can't understand why the same rifle (except for looks) in .22-250 has rubber.

I don't have a bum shoulder, yet. But I'm smart enough to have sold my .458, and I have no intentions of trying to turn any of my newer guns into a magnum. Let the young and stupid kids prove they're manly and boost velocity. The factory loads are hot enough for me. My reloads try to duplicate those, or even reduce them a little.

Make fun of me if you want to. I don't care. I'd even go for a super light loading if it was accurate and dependable. The old Lyman manuals give a starting load, or minimum. I'm thinking next cycle, that will be my top load.

Havng owned and shot a number of .45-70s, I prefer the 300 grain bullets these days.

When I got my 1895 Marlin back in '73, I worked up a 1600 fps load with the Speer 400 grainer.

OUCH!

Here's another fun 45/70 load, a 350 grain lead flat point from a Lyman mold, with 12.5 grains Unique powder, should give about 1300 FPS or so. Super accurate in my Marlin rifle, easy on the shoulder....

Some years ago, I bought a used Marlin 1895 lever action rifle with Ballard Rifling chambered in 45/70.

The only loads I had were some a friend gave me that were high velocity loads (420 gr bullet approaching 2000 fps). The Marlin buttplate, as issued, is a very sharp edged curved plastic butt plate (and NARROW). It was summer and I was wearing a "T" shirt. It shot very well but the recoil was brutal. I was actually bleeding when I finished. My arm and shoulder looked like raw meat.

I called up a stock maker friend of mine, IMMEDIATELY took the rifle to him and helped him hold the rifle as we cut it off and fitted a GOOD recoil pad. I then decided that I had absolutely NO need for a high velocity 45/70 (Good Lord! 60,000,000 buffalo were slaughtered with 45/70's and similar rifles with black powder!). However, with a good recoil pad, even the light Marlin is quite shootable with heavy loads.

I settled on a moderate load of RL-7 (is in the right burning range, measures well, and burns well in light, moderate, and heavy loads in this caliber) behind a Lee 340 gr plain base cast bullet. It runs about 1300 fps and shoots a reliable 1½" at 100 yards. I mounted a low power scope on my Marlin (I have vision problems) and it makes for a very nice woods rifle.

Later, I purchased a Ruger #3, in .45/70 and before I even shot it I had it cut off and a good recoil pad installed (I am NOT a slow learner>)).

I have harvested all of my deer with handguns (most with my Model 29 Smith) as Ohio, where I live, does not allow rifle hunting (just muzzle loaders). So, I have not shot any big game with my 45/70 rifles but I can report with authority, that you do NOT have to shoot a ground hog TWICE with the .45/70...

Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook has lots of loads for all three levels of 45/70 power. They even show duplex loads (priming charge of smokeless powder and the rest black powder). These duplex loads work VERY well and allow the use of soft lead bullets (30/1 lead/tin down as soft as 50/1 lead/tin) for excellent expansion at black powder velocities. The loads burn cleanly and allow all day use without blow tubes or wiping with excellent accuracy. I have shot thousands of these loads in BPCR (black powder cartridge rifles). They have the advantage of very low Standard Deviation with a full case of powder (no powder shifting from light loads of smokeless powder, etc) and just flat work well. I use 10% RL-7 smokeless in my duplex loads (determine what a full case load of 2F black powder is in your cases with YOUR bullet, reduce it by 10% and load 10% of RL-7 by weight over the primer and compress the powder to hold the powders in place). I use a LDPE wad between the powder and bullet base. When testing in a particular rifle, I start off with minimal compression, shoot, then add two grains more of black, and continue until I get the most accurate load. Typically, it starts off with minimal compression with larger than optimal groups, the groups get progressively smaller as you add black powder. Then it'll reach a point that the group starts to open up. Then, fine tune by a grain either way and you have the compression that will give your most accurate load.

FWIW

Dale53

.45/70

I shoot a Marlin 1895CB and a Uberti- Winchester 1885 High Wall.

I'll be trying for another whitetail this wknd. with the Marlin. I settled on 1400-1512 fps whether its the Rem 405 JSP or my hard cast 405 FN. It's all the recoil I care to deal with. A long day at the range brings out my Limbsaver slip over the shoulder recoil shield. I hit the 1500 fps mark w/ 36.5 Reloader 7 w/ LRM primers. Accuracy is plenty good for this old hoss.

My 1885 is for a 400 yd BPCR match I shoot in yearly and for friendly matches w/ the same 2 guys that take 1st and 2nd in the match. I've been 3rd three years in a row. (I try to get them drunk the night before but so far I weaken and join in.) My load is a Hoch 508 gr 20-1 cast with fire-formed brass, SPG lube and Lyman's duplex load- 54gr FFG Goex with 6gr of Re7 sitting on the stanard primer. 1201 fps with SD of 15 fps. 1.25"-1.50" @ 100yds.

I like to get velocities that feel right and are accurate, but also make working up ballistics charts easier!

Crazy????

Greyfox I don't know if you are the only crazy one here! I recently worked up a load for the Contender pictured below. 45/70 with a 300 grain Remington
HP over 58 grains of H335 and to set it off a CCI 200 primer. Crazy? I will let all of you decide..............

13.5 - 13.6 grains of Unique , 300 - 405 grains home cast lead .

Marlin .45-70 lever gun . About 1150 fps for the 405 grain .

God bless
Wyr