.44 Special loads with Jacketed bullets

bubbajoe45

bubbajoe45

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I reload .44 Specials with 240 gr LSWC FP (TruCast) using Trail Boss, Unique, W231, and 2400. I practice and plink with them, but decided I wanted a Hollow Point bullet. I get the Tru-Cast bullets for a pretty good price ($50/500shipped) and haven't found a LSWC HP (any suggestions? short of casting), much less at a decent price (prefer 240gr, but would consider a 200gr). Anyhow, i bought some Horn 240gr XTPs, which I have used before for .44 Mags; they are easy to find around here (never see the GDs!). Just can't find much data for .44 Spl.; looking to use Unique and get >=900 fps from a 3 or 4" bbl (N frames). I realize this bullet is designed for expansion at .44 mag velocities, but don't you think it would usually open up a bit at 900+? Read someone's rule that you could add 1 gr for a jacketed bullet vs. the same weight cast. So, for the ole 7.5 Unique under a 250gr Keith, has anyone chrono'd 8.5 Unique under an XTP? Any pressure problems? Should I reduce load data for a 250 gr bullet if I'm using a 240gr? I welcome your thoughts and ideas.
 
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The most important question is what gun are you using?

You also have the "old rule" backwards. You generally will be able to use one grain less with lead to get the same velocity as a jacketed bullet, since they slide down the bore a lot easier.

My Hornady catolog show the 240 XTP as being good down to 900 FPS for the start of expansion.

In a heavy framed gun like the 24/624 you can run some pretty stout loads. There is an excellent article in Handloader #236 on loading the .44 Special by Brian Pearce. There are a bunch of laods at varying pressure levels that are shown in the charts.

In my 24-3 I have used 8 grains of Unique under the 240 XTP in R-P cases with CCI 300 primers with no problems of any type, and cases fell out with a tip of the gun barrel. I didn't get a chance to chrono these loads though.

I have also used 8 grains of 231 under the same bullet, with the same components with the same results.

In the above mentioned article he shows 18.5 graind of H-110 with the 240 XTP, CCI 300, and it is listed as giving 25,000 PSI while giving 1114 FPS from a 6.5" 24-3.

These loads may be a little stout in a gun like the 696 or charter arms.

The standard Skeeter Skelton load was 7.5 grains of Unique with a 250 cast swc Lyman 429421 at 950 fps.
 
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First I can tell you that the Hornady XTP has had minimal expansion at magnum velocities. When shot into plastic sheets, like Lexan, at 45ACP velocities, the nose just plugged up and that was about it. No expansion. Some of the folks I shoot with have done those tests so it isn't hearsay.

Jacketed softpoints or jacketed softpoint hollowpoints may be the ticket for you. Remington makes them so do Speer and Winchester.
There is no hazmat fee for bullets so it may be advantageous to find them online and order them.

The "rule" you quote isn't really a rule but a suggestion. Nothing hard and fast about it. The reason that you can reduce a load from jacketed to lead is because the lead bullet has less resistance. It takes less to attain the same velocity. With a jacketed bullet, I suggest asking the powder manufacturer. They are only a phone call away and most will be willing to give you a starter load for your components, that is unless they are way out of spec!

To be honest, you need to start casting. If you had a soft bullet that was sized for your firearms, the velocities you are looking for will flatten them out just fine.

Also, and I haven't used them but, Ranier or Berry may make a plated hollow point that would work better. I know the Berry ones are hard to get to expand because the plating is much thicker. The Ranier bullet though is more like a Gold Dot. Check them out online.

Here are some pictures of a JSPHP that was recovered from a deer. This is one of the Remingtons fired from a Marlin 1894 Rifle @ 1700fps. This bullet hit the big bone in the left foreleg, ribs on the left side, "the boiler room" and the right side ribs, coming to a stop right under the skin on the right side.

Bulletnose2.jpg

Bulletbase1.jpg
 
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MidwayUSA is expecting to have Speer 200gr GDHPs (the ones made for the .44 Special) available in a month. They're also saying that Hornady 180gr and 200gr HP/XTP bullets will be available this month. I've shot all three and they're all very nice in the .44 Special. The GDHPs currently cost about 8 cents more per bullet than the HP/XTPs. You might also consider the Hornady 240gr swaged lead SWC-HP bullets at half the price of the HP/XTPs.

My suggestion is to get your order in for one (or all of them) and then wait patiently for their arrival. A month really isn't that long and besides, patience IS a virtue...
 
Gun 4 Fun said:
The most important question is what gun are you using?

A Thunder ranch 21-4 and a LH 624.

You also have the "old rule" backwards. You generally will be able to use one grain less with lead to get the same velocity as a jacketed bullet, since they slide down the bore a lot easier.

Isn't that what I said? 1 gr. more with jacketed and less with lead? that's why I said 8.5 gr. to approximate/duplicate the Skeeter load
the poster below says lead moves easier down the bore, so less powder required, right?

My Hornady catolog show the 240 XTP as being good down to 900 FPS for the start of expansion.

In a heavy framed gun like the 24/624 you can run some pretty stout loads. There is an excellent article in Handloader #236 on loading the .44 Special by Brian Pearce. There are a bunch of laods at varying pressure levels that are shown in the charts.

I googled it and the online 'glimpse' goes from pg 11 to pg 44 - the article is on pg 34. I saw his recent article in Shooting Times recenting (I believe it was ST?)

In my 24-3 I have used 8 grains of Unique under the 240 XTP in R-P cases with CCI 300 primers with no problems of any type, and cases fell out with a tip of the gun barrel. I didn't get a chance to chrono these loads though.

I have also used 8 grains of 231 under the same bullet, with the same components with the same results.

I'll start with these and see how they do - thanks.

In the above mentioned article he shows 18.5 graind of H-110 with the 240 XTP, CCI 300, and it is listed as giving 25,000 PSI while giving 1114 FPS from a 6.5" 24-3.

These loads may be a little stout in a gun like the 696 or charter arms.

The standard Skeeter Skelton load was 7.5 grains of Unique with a 250 cast swc Lyman 429421 at 950 fps.
Click to expand...

Yea, I just want the equivalent of Skeeter's load with a HP.
 
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smith crazy said:
Jacketed softpoints or jacketed softpoint hollowpoints may be the ticket for you. Remington makes them so do Speer and Winchester.
There is no hazmat fee for bullets so it may be advantageous to find them online and order them.

Not stuck on a jacketed bullet; just want a HP. A cast SWC-HP would be fine, but looking for a reasonable bulk price. I'll check these out though. thanks

To be honest, you need to start casting. If you had a soft bullet that was sized for your firearms, the velocities you are looking for will flatten them out just fine.

Barely have time to re-load, and do that so I can shoot. Too many hobbies already.

Also, and I haven't used them but, Ranier or Berry may make a plated hollow point that would work better. I know the Berry ones are hard to get to expand because the plating is much thicker. The Ranier bullet though is more like a Gold Dot. Check them out online.


I'm come very close to ordering some a number of times, but didn't want to pay that much at the time. I did pay significantly more for the XTPs, though so I'll re-look at them.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Bubba-
If you want to duplicate the Skeeter load, you wouldn't add one grain of powder with a jacketed bullet. The jacket alone will raise pressure (since he used cast bullets), and adding a grain will raise it substantially. To equal the Skeeter load with a jacketed bullet, use one grain less. 6.5 vs. 7.5. to achieve the same velocity (roughly). The guns that you are using will take very stout loads with ease.



One other thing, I have used a bunch of the Berry's bullets, and they tend to be very accurate, but, they don't have a crimp groove, and they really creep out of the case under even mild recoil. I just crimp them at the length I want for an OACL. They are very soft, so they crimp easily anywhere you want, but even so, they jump the crimp. I believe this is one place a taper crimp would be extremely beneficial, but I don't have them for every caliber.
 
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RidgwayCO said:
You might also consider the Hornady 240gr swaged lead SWC-HP bullets at half the price of the HP/XTPs.

Yea, I haven't seen these. That'd work fine. thanks

A month really isn't that long and besides, patience IS a virtue...
Click to expand...

You're right!

Thanks for the replies. What about 240 gr vs. 250 gr. bullet thing? Do I need to reduce by a percentage to use a 250 gr recipe with a 240 gr bullet?
 
The other poster is right about the Hornady or Speer lead bullets being fine bullets, but don't run them very fast, 'cause they will lead like crazy above about 800-850 fps. At least they have in all my guns. Below that though, they are quite accurate, and since they are very soft (almost pure lead), they expand fairly easily.:)
 
I don't think a 240 JHP is the best solution. For self defense, I have settled on 9.9 grs. of AA#5 for around 1000 fps. using 210 WW JHP Silvertiips in a nickel case. That way I can store them in various locations and in leather. Or a 240 SWC at 1000 fps. Save the 240 JHP for the magnum.
 
Gun 4 Fun said:
Bubba-
If you want to duplicate the Skeeter load, you wouldn't add one grain of powder with a jacketed bullet. The jacket alone will raise pressure (since he used cast bullets), and adding a grain will raise it substantially. To equal the Skeeter load with a jacketed bullet, use one grain less. 6.5 vs. 7.5. to achieve the same velocity (roughly). The guns that you are using will take very stout loads with ease.

You said you had no problems with 8 gr Unique with the XTPs, I just tried 7.5 Unique and had no case sticking, so I'll work up to 8. So, I'm guessing you figure these are little hotter than Skeeter's 950fps?


One other thing, I have used a bunch of the Berry's bullets, and they tend to be very accurate, but, they don't have a crimp groove, and they really creep out of the case under even mild recoil. I just crimp them at the length I want for an OACL. They are very soft, so they crimp easily anywhere you want, but even so, they jump the crimp. I believe this is one place a taper crimp would be extremely beneficial, but I don't have them for every caliber.
Click to expand...

Yea, been there, done that. I don't fool around with anything without a groove.
 
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bubbajoe45 said:
So, I'm guessing you figure these are little hotter than Skeeter's 950fps?
Click to expand...

When I tried them in my 24-3 with a 4" barrel, I didn't have my chrono with me. I do figure them to be about 1,000 fps or so from this gun. Remember that Skeeter used lead bullets, which slide down the bore easier and requires less pressure to do it, so going up 1/2 grain will raise the velocity some, but it will also raise the pressure (even more than it will raise velocity), because I used jacketed bullets. I am still well within the safety zone of a model 24 though, and that is important to remember.
 
Gun 4 Fun said:
The other poster is right about the Hornady or Speer lead bullets being fine bullets, but don't run them very fast, 'cause they will lead like crazy above about 800-850 fps. At least they have in all my guns. Below that though, they are quite accurate, and since they are very soft (almost pure lead), they expand fairly easily.:)
Click to expand...

I like the Speer 240 LSWCs a lot. I have shot nearly 1500 of them now through my two Lipsey's 44 Specials and haven't had any leading issues up to a chrono'd 1050 fps. However, I do not use Unique nor 231. In fact, although many folks like Unique loads for many reasons, I have found it to be a powder especially problematic for leading with plain based, and even more so bevel based, lead bullets. Perhaps it is the pressure curve, its burn temp or some other factor. I don't know why, but it is an empirical observation over many years. It is more pronounced at heavier loadings and higher velocities.

If you try the 240 Speer LSWCs with WSF, starting at 7.0 grains (potentially working up to as much as 8.0 grains ONLY in a strong gun like a 624 or Lipsey's Blackhawk) you can easily push them over 1000. I'm getting great accuracy out of them. Both of my 4 5/8" Lipseys are throwing 2.5-3" 30 round groups at 50 yards using the higher loading. NOTE: ** This is a self developed load that I have been using for over 8 years now, so if anyone is a "book data only" person please do not consider experimenting with this combination, it is for very experienced handloaders only who know and assume as entirely personal all risks of handloading and feel competent to develop loads on their own.**

e/t/a: Power Pistol is another powder that is showing some promise with this bullets in the 44 SP. I have recently been working with it some.
 
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VAdoublegunner said:
I like the Speer 240 LSWCs a lot. I have shot nearly 1500 of them now through my two Lipsey's 44 Specials and haven't had any leading issues up to a chrono'd 1050 fps. However, I do not use Unique nor 231. In fact, although many folks like Unique loads for many reasons, I have found it to be a powder especially problematic for leading with plain based, and even more so bevel based, lead bullets. Perhaps it is the pressure curve, its burn temp or some other factor. I don't know why, but it is an empirical observation over many years. It is more pronounced at heavier loadings and higher velocities.

If you try the 240 Speer LSWCs with WSF, starting at 7.0 grains (potentially working up to as much as 9.0 grains ONLY in a strong gun like a 624 or Lipsey's Blackhawk) you can easily push them over 1000. I'm getting great accuracy out of them. Both of my 4 5/8" Lipseys are throwing 2.5-3" 30 round groups at 50 yards using the higher loading.
Click to expand...

Just ordered some Hornady 240 gr LSWC-HP ($20 per 200). Won't be in for awhile, so I'll keep an eye out for some WSF and may give it a try. thanks.
 
I hope it works out well for you, bubbajoe45. You will also notice that I decided to edit and back the upper charge limit off by a grain in my post above, which was not picked up in your quote block.

I just wanted to make that point.
 
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