Lucky, I believe lol

Good morning
I carry my 5 shot with 162 grain SOFT (40-1) propelled by 4 grains Unique. I am not concered about leading and I see none. I do not plan on a long string of fire. I carry one 5 shot reoader in my pocket.
Expansion is excellent for a 38 special. Lead will still put the hurt to any 150 pound + preditor.
Bill Hickok trusted his life to a caliber 36 round ball... I have that plus.

i miss your point...i referred to to the poster that stated he would shoot someone for messing with his car...the case you referance here involves burglary where a neighbor becomes involved in an effort to help and was placed in a position of harm (according to his statement) that can be a very real and critical differance and has nothing to do with my original statement...think of it this way...would you shoot someone for taking your childs bike?the differance between the bike and the car is monetary value....when you shoot someone and cannot clearly articulate and demonstrate that it was in the defense of death or great bodily harm to you or another....you indeed climb a slippery slope

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Tom,
I am new here but figure I'd throw my opinion in here, FWIW. I have done some testing on old 2x4s. Commercial Cast Lead SWC out of a standard 38 do penetrate pretty deep. Much deeper than a hollowpoint. I think in a 38 for use against human antagonist I would stick with a hollowpoint for most cases. If he is shooting at you from behind a 2x4 wall, I'd definitely use a hard cast SWC. Of course you probably will not have the time to change ammo.... The wall thing is pretty unusual so I carry hollowpoints.

As for handloads... my Kimber (am I allowed to say that on the Smith forum?) on my hip is loaded with handloads and has been for many months. I like the Remington 230 Golden Saber bullet. Put many thousand handloads of it down my barrel over the past 7 years. Accurate and feeds well. I have records of the velocity of my handloads: about 20 fps slower than the factory ammo and much more consistent. I can prove my handloads are not "hot". I also KNOW where my ammo hits as I have fired thousands of rounds of it. I also have records of the factory ammo velocity, complete with the squib load and the target with that squib load hitting at a different point. I have had other probs with Remington 22 ammo. I don't know about other makers. I trust Speer enough that it is in my 642 now. But Remington: I don't buy their ammo only their bullets.

Watch your six and you probably won't need to shoot the gun anyway. Get good training with documentation. Go to Ayoobs school, his LFI 1 class is very good. He thoroughly covers when to shoot and when not to. I've been to it, money well spent.

How does protection of property enter the realm of self defense? Self defense, at least in my mind, means protecting yourself or others from bodily harm, not saving someone's DVD player from getting stolen.

In the case where you shoot somebody over anything other than self defense, then I would say the prosecutors ARE going to look at every bit of evidence they can find to see if you were just looking for an excuse to shoot somebody, because you were not threatened with bodily harm.

The case I posted just shows there are a lot of people that lack an understanding of Texas law.

The two illegals were in possession of $2000 of stolen goods from Joe's neighbor's house. That's $1000 each, if you want to place a value on their lives.

The Grand Jury no billed him, which means there wasn't a case to be made in light of Texas law and he is also immune to civil suits, under the same law.

This is a good lesson in the invalid nature of Massad Ayoob's argument, which really only deals with the absence of GSR (gun shot residue) in the Bias case. GSR means nothing, if the case is no billed, and therefore handloads become a non-issue.

I've had this same argument with Massad himself and demonstrated Bias was a murderer by concocting a super-light load that definitely left GSR on the target at a distance of three or four feet on 4/17/08.

Here's the target with tape measure.



and here's the GSR results at that distance.

Paul,
Don't cloud the issues with facts! When an "EXPERT WITNESS" says that Bias is innocent, he is innocent!

If it was a police officer that was the victim and the "CSI'S" were called in, what would the "WITNESS" have to say then given the evidence used in the Bias case with GSR? No, like you said, Bias is a murderer that snapped when his wife confronted him with a loaded firearm, period. Basically, that's what the jury said too when they pronounced him guilty, and our forum friend keeps promoting this fallacy as fact.

Joe Horn was even told not to shoot by a dispatcher, if I remember correctly, and said something to the effect of "I'm gonna kill him", and still got away with the shooting. I bet there are a lot less robberies in his neighborhood since then too!

These are my "in the home" defense loads for my 44 mags. 250 Keith, 16 to 1, with a .250 X .300 hollow point. After hollowpointing the weight is 223 grains. Driven at 1000 fps through numerous layers of denim covered wet phone books, the bullet opens up fast, creates a very large wound channel, and exhibits penetration depths a bit short of three feet at 10 yards. The load is very accurate, hits hard, causes massive damage, and the limited penetration should deminish the possibility of shoot through......................Here in Missouri we have the "Castle Law" which allows the citizen to protect "life and property"...be it in the home, on the property, or, in a vehicle....no license is required. We also have Concealed Carry. In both laws, I have never come across a statute that dictates the type of ammuntion that must be used. I know I am dreaming here, but, it would be nice if all states would tailor their laws to be reciprocal.

Attached Images

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non-true bills are an everyday occurance...if the CA/DA is interested...he simply brings it back before another grand jury...becauce a bill is returned "non-true"means little....i'll not beat a dead horse ,but as i said in my original post...when you shoot someone to protect a piece of property.....you will have a slippery slope to climb...and thats true in all 50 states

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

It's "no bill," just for the record. Legal terminology sometimes get tricky. So do legal concepts. I'd recommend everyone talk to a local (or national) expert if they had any questions, and not rely on the perhaps-not-precisely-on-point-to-your-question opinions of someone on the internet.

The factory loads I want in my revolver, have a muzzle energy of 222ft-lbs. My studies into loads all documented muzzle energy, a product of bullet mass and velocity. At $1 a round, or so, it is costly to practive with those loads. (some of you may remember when I was doing chrony work with 2" and 4" muzzle velocities with 38sp and 357mag handloads and posted those results and graphs).

I used that energy equation setting desired energy equal to the factory load, using bullet weight as a variable, and solving for velocity. I worked up a 158gn LSWC load with desired energy. I chrono'd the loads
to verify the handloads.

Two issues for me solved. First is a factory defensive load well document and respected by the community, and second, a practive load that provides the same felt recoil for muzzel energy as those factory defensive loads. Potential legal issues form using handloads is eliminated, 'can't trust nobody these days...' often said, Especially when greed using the judical system is today's expectation.

Hard to argue with that plan, Rick.

My 442 is loaded with Hornady CDI +P's. Don't shoot handloads in pistols.

"fk"

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I don't collect, I accumlate

The law, as passed by both house and senate and signed by Gov. Perry, that became effective 1 Sept 2007.
If you want to read all of it, it's found here, with the amendments to the bill annotated and with the inclusion of civil immunity. 80(R) SB 378 - Enrolled version - Bill Text

Repo men are shot on a fairly regular basis in Texas while trying to take possesion of the car at night. No charges are filed. Dont take things at night in Texas or you can and will be shot.

I LOAD MY M29 - 4, 3 " WITH THE 200 GR GD FOR SHORT BARRELS LOAD. SO IT COST ME 30.00 DOLLAR A BOX. IT IS A SMALL NUKE. AND I KNOW IT HELP WITH THE POLICE AND DA FOR HAVING FACTORY LOADS.

This is off topic to the point of bullet type. We have migrated the OP's topic to be every type of handload and he wanted to know about lead bullets.

Now that we are way out here, I just might as well as keep on going!

This has been posted before. Ayoob even knows the fellow I am going to mention. As a matter of fact, Ayoob goes to his range to train other folks. Well, it seems that the range owner is a city police detective. Has been a cop for longer than most of us have been born! He carried a M14 when 38spl revolvers were the thing. Now, in this modern age of the bottom feeder, he still carries a revolver! It is an engraved M629 5" (if memory serves me) and he carries it in a shoulder holster. Do you know what he stokes it with? While on duty? And the city attorney is OK with it? That's right, on duty, 180gr JHP with a healthy dose of 2400 under it! Guess where they are made? At a factory? Nope, in gun shop at the range. Do you know who makes them? His daughter!

I asked him about it once. He said in his time as a cop, and being an expert witness in a bunch of cases in his Indiana county, the use of handloads has NEVER come up in court, not once!

I think I'll use him as a defense if I ever need one, which, unless I start getting struck by lightning, is going to be pretty rare!

Now that you mention it Skip, I vaguely remember reading an article where a defense attorney tried to use reloads as an excuse to get his client out from under a murder charge. There was never any good first hand information available about the incident as the writer got his information from this attorney and never sat in the courtroom to hear all the testimony from both sides.

The only other information I could ever dig up on the case claimed that the defendant was intoxicated at the time of his wifes death and had admitted to the police that he was the one that shot her.

I think a guy ought to load a big ol' home-cast hollow-point, then epoxy a primer (magnum, preferably) upside down in the cavity so maybe the boollit will blow up when it hits the bad guy. Perhaps a drop of rat poison or some other toxic substance under the primer would add a special dimension to the concoction so that if the BG lived he'd get extra sick.

Seriously, guys, I know this is a controversial subject and all that, and philosophically I agree that what we load in our guns shouldn't matter in the context of a self-defense shooting, but we live in the real world where there are bad guys, and not all of the bad guys have piercings and tattoos and break into homes in the dark of night, some of them wear suits and carry briefcases and believe deeply in wealth redistribution, and they want to redistribute yours to themselves and their ne'er-do-well clients. Don't give them more ammunition to use against you based on your personal defense ammo choices, use good factory stuff and if the shooting is otherwise justified you'll be okay.

SNIP to


No pun intended I'm sure...

I have developed a little "target" load for the 44 Special that eliminates the debate about expansion. 185 grain full wad cutter.



And here's what they look like in a 624



Water jug penetration testing and velocity specifications to be available soon.

This was developed after reading Jim Cirillo's book about how he liked sharp edged wad cutters for this type of work.

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KSCowboy

I have one that is very similar, only for the 38/357Mag! Here is what it looks like!



Just call it "Baby Brother!"

Amen, Baby Brother!

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KSCowboy

KSCowboy, Skip, those are some nice looking wadcutters!

MTKTM, do you have any evidence to back up anything you wrote? Not just that your choice of handloads for self defense will cause you more trouble than factoy ammo, but also that if you use factory ammo everything will be O.K.? Everything I have ever seen or heard proves the opposite of both parts of your quoted statement.

As I said in the first reply to the OP's question way back on page one of this thread, I'm not weighing in on legal issues (which have been beaten into the ground here and on many other forums) regarding the handloads.

That said, Skip hooked me up with some of his lovely bullets last summer - they're what reside in my Detective Special. I use 2400 to run them at 850 fps out of that gun.









Thanks again, Skip; they're dandies!

Great pictures Erich! It makes me want to go out and cast some WCs for a similar load for my derringer.

I use a similar configuration in .44 Special and so far I'm quite pleased with the results.

While I don't really see the point of a cast lead solid for SD, & I always carry factory JHP, if I did have to use a lead bullet handload, it would be one of these.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The answer is over a century old. The harder a bullet is, the more energy it needs to expand reliably. To get more energy it needs more speed. And if it's driven faster may lead, so it's made even harder and the circle continues. Hollow point bullets have their own disadvantages along the same lines, if you have any doubts about that look at the picture of your .452 hollow point at 785fps.

Old timers knew that softer bullets expanded easily at slower velocities and fast driven hollow points weren't needed for self defense, which is a product of modern advertising hype. In his book "Sixguns" Elmer Keith stated even at that time that the most effective bullet he's ever used on game was a pure lead .44 cal. ball from a cap and ball revolver. Now let's look at your .452 hollow points again. Lyman lists a .450 cal. RB out of a 8" .44 cap and ball revolver giving velocities in the same area as yours. Are they the same? Lymans listed weight for their round balls was 138grs., use your velocites for both projectiles and see the difference in recoil. By keeping the bullet as soft as possible and thereby driven as slow as possible, a faster rate of fire and higher controlability are gained. Elmer also found that a wide meplat made the largest permanant wound cavity and you won't get a larger meplat than a full wadcutter. If they expand you get more damage, if they don't they still cut a nice cavity. I can't speak for everyone, but that is my answer to your question.

For the 38 Special, I am loading 2--000 buckshot over 5 grains of unique for 900 fps. They weigh 65-70 grains so the payload is 135-140 grains. Crimp just above the centerline of the top ball

At 10 feet, they both go into the same hole, at 20 ft, the holes are just touching and at 30 ft. the holes are about 1" apart.

I have never shot anyone with this load, but I would think it would be quite effective and over penetration is not a problem.

Cast lead for SD? No. I have a nice COLT Det. Spec. that is loaded w/ some nice petal point Rem. 125 gr. JHP. I have fired the load enough in similar revolvers to know that it opens up and is sufficiently accurate for SD/HD. At the distances I might have to use it in my home, it might punch all the way through a criminal, but more likely it will not over penetrate. BTW, in the nightstand is also a G-22 stuffed with Rem. 180 gr. JHP and in the dresser is a SA Mil-Spec 1911 full of Winchester 230 gr. JHP.

As far as legal issues are concerned, I hope and pray to God that I never have to ever use deadly force against any criminal assailant. No matter what the consequences are very difficult. At a minimum one incurs serious financial cost for a lawyer, etc. Also there are the emotional consequences to ones self and ones family. It is wise to think things out and have a plan. But only a fool would boast about what he would do if faced with such a situation. If the day ever comes when one must go before a judge, jury, etc. for using deadly force, you are not going to want to have every possible advantage. You do not want to make unwise decisions that will put bricks in their hands which they can and will use to sway the jury to convict rather than acquit. Whatever you do, make sure that your ever decision only provides support that will make sense to someone you will have to persuade to your POV. You'd best hope for a fair judge and a impartial jury. But given that judges typically are not fair and juries are most assuredly not impartial, you'd best act ahead of time to not make things harder that they will be. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.

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<><

Of all the 'unwise decisions' a person can make regarding whether or not to shoot in self-defense, the choice of ammo in the gun has no influence--none--on the quality of any of those decisions, good or bad.

Simply put, if you are justified in shooting, you have nothing to worry about. If the ammo in the gun mattered, then certainly the gun itself would matter, too. What if you grabbed a shotgun instead of your .38 pistol? Certainly a shotgun has more killing power than any .38, so why did you choose to use the shotgun instead of the .38? I have never heard anyone argue that one should bypass his shotgun in favor of a .38 because of legal implications, yet the logic is the no different.

You use what you consider to be the most effective weapon, both in terms of your ability to use it, and it's effectiveness, to stop the threat of imminent bodily harm--end of story. Doesn't matter if it's a ball bat or a .500 S&W loaded with elephant ammo.

Mr. Ayoob also wrote about a case in Arizona, of all places, where a man was convicted in a self defense shooting and the DA made a huge deal about the evil Hollow point 10mm factory laoded bullets he was using. It was later overturned after he had spent a couple years (?) in jail. Even in a state like Arizona it depends on the DA.

"... both in terms of what is available, of your ability to use it, and it's effectiveness,..."

Great point! I edited slightly.

Thank you, that is better!

My "evidence" consists of reading accounts of cases, 35 years of practicing law, and common sense. It does not come from Net Ninjas. The less direct input that a self-defense shooter puts into the incident in terms of manipulating the outcome, the better it will go for him in court. For that reason, I don't modify guns that I carry for SD. For that same reason I do not modify the ammo I carry in those guns. Believe me, I know a lot of prosecutors and plaintiff's lawyers (I am neither) and have seen them in action, and you'd not believe how they can spin stuff and make it sound like the Gospel coming directly from Jesus' lips. And yes, because they can and sometimes will do just that, there's no guarantee that they'll not shove the fact that a guy used factory hollow-point ammo where the sun does not shine too, but as long as I'm using current production factory fodder (not some Black Talon that I found at a gunshow and paid big $ for because it's tacticool) and haven't mounted a bunch of geegaws on my gun, I think I can counter that argument.

Hey, guys, don't think for a minute that this PC stuff is a bunch of garbage or that it only applies to handloaded versus factory ammo. Mark my words, if you decide to put a totally tacticool AR next to your bed, mount a laser and a strobe-light, perhaps get a 50 Beowolf upper and handload it with massive soft-lead hollow-cavity bullets that you cast in your little basement ammo-room, watch out if you ever find yourself having to use it and end up in court defending that use. No, it isn't the only factor and maybe you'll win, but some prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer is going to have himself/herself a real good time painting you as a gun-nut, survivalist, trigger-happy cretin in the eyes of the jury. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy my tacticool AR and love handloading, have been doing it since the 1960s, and shoot thousands of handloads each year. I just don't keep them in my PD guns, period, except when I'm at the range practicing.

Following quotes from MTKTM:
The shooter that chooses handloads is not manipulating the outcome any more than if he chose one factory load over the other.
Yes they can try to paint you as anything they want, and it sometimes happens. But if you look at the real life incidents it's usually because they are either misinformed by their expert sources or grasping for straws because they have no case. But the fact that they can and the fact that they never have, in the case of using handloads should tell you something. How many cases are even known where handloaded ammunition was even used in a self defense situation, wether it was a justifiable or not? In most areas, not all because there are some exceptions, there is no law regarding what you can or can not carry in your self defense firearms. It rarely becomes an issue and when it does the case has gone beyond self defense because there is something else that makes them believe things didn't happen the way you claim they did. Regardless of how low, dumb or sneaky you might think your aquaintences are, most attorneys aren't that stupid to put their foot in their mouths and take a chance at blowing a case if they think you are guilty. When they do try and railroad someone they at least try and use something that is involves illegal activity.
If they are the painting kind, they will do that no matter what you choose to defend yourself with. They don't know the difference between your totally tacticool AR and a Chipmunk single shot .22 youth rifle. And when MY life is on the line, I'm not going to let some idiot that doesn't know the difference between those two make the decision of which one I will choose.
Quoted from AZretired:
I never read Mas' article, but it sounds like you are referring to the Harold Fish case. The DA, or whoever it was, did make reference to his using a 10mm pistol, loaded with hollow points. A few jurors even said that it influenced their decision. However, there was a lot more to the case than that, and after watching Mr. Fish explain the incident himself on TV, I think he was guilty too. But what got him sent to prison and eventually released, was the way AZ law read at the time of his shooting. He was required to show that he was justified in shooting the defendant, which he couldn't, with any bullet or caliber of handgun. Shortly after his shooting AZ law changed to put the burden of proof on the state to show that he wasn't justified. He was released after his request to have the effective date of the change backed up to grandfather him into the revised law was approved.

After reading other accounts and watching the TV program, it sounded to me like the DA, or whoever, made the accusation based on information from a local police officer.

How will they know if you use handloads or not anyway? Are you going to tell them? If so, you deserve to go through whatever comes your way! Keep your mouth shut until an attorney is present! You have the right to remain silent, use it!

Also, use some common sense tactics when reloading. Use all the same case and projectiles. How are they going to know that you loaded them? Use new brass.

There are a ton of ways that you can cover your "butt". You just have to use your head!

I'm a fan of cast SWCs in revolvers, and in SD.

When I was in LE I carried a Model 25, with 150 grn LSWC (Lymand mold 358477, or did until I got caught. Then I started carrying winchester 158 LSWCs. We had a big moose/vehicle problem. I've had to put down several moose in my 20 years, one, pictured below, after hitting a van he was a bit POed and started chasing other cars into the bar pit, I shot him in the neck just as he started after my patrol car. I never had a 357 LSWC fail me.

I'm retired now but still carry that same bullet in my 642 pocket revolver. I've put down a couple deer after some muffed shots while hunting with my grandkids. Its all I carry as backup in hunting, plus its pretty good for dispatching rattlers. Got a couple foxes and coyotes also with my 642 and the above bullet.

I wrote our state Attorney General regarding the use of handloads in SD. The response was as long and it was a ligit shooting, and not illegal ammo I'm fine. And LSWCs in a 38 isnt illegal. Also Wyoming's Castle Doc. Says if its a ligit shooting, then I can't be sued in civil court. I've heard a lot about the use of reloads in SD shootings, but haven't found anyone who's come up with a court case, where an otherwise ligit shooting went south because of handloads. So I'll have to go with my states Attorney Gen on the subject.

Anyway, I think the SWCs are effective and seem to work for me.

Well folks, I kind of told a fib, ref: not having any problems with SWCs in a 38/357. While looking for the moose picture I posted above, I found another photo reminding me of my goof.

A few years back I bought a buffalo at a custer state park auction, they then the herd every year.

My intent was to bring him home, turn him loose and "hunt him" on my property with my Remington Rolling Block in 44-90 Sharps Bottleneck. When I pulled up in the yard my wife and grandaughter came out for a look-see. When they threw a bit of hay in for the buffalo, he dern near tore my trailer apart.

I figured if I turned him loose, I'd be fixing fences for a while. I got my neighbor taxidermy over for advice, I didnt want to mess up the head. He says I should just shoot him with a pistol. Ok, I get my retired Model 28, and my 150 gr SWCs and promply bounce on of my bullfalo's head. Now he's really mad. My neighbor tells me to make an imagnary x from the base of his horn to the eye. I did, and shot the center of where the X would be and down he went.

So I did kind of have a failure, but I blame it on the trigger puller.

So if you don't try to shoot buffalo in the head, you're SWCs in 38/357 should work.

The photo shows the buff after I draged it out of the trailer and the rifle I SHOULD have shot it with.

This thread has been all over the place and has segued into justification for using handloads for self defense. I would highly recommend that all individuals know their state and local laws.

IMHO, the critical issue is are you justified in taking another human life. You'd better be sure that your or your family's lives have been threatened and that you are justified in using deadly force.

I was recently at a range where a customer who had never owned a gun wanted one in case someone was "messing with his shed". Bad idea. Is your shed that precious?

If you are justified in using deadly force, what ammo you used is of secondary importance. If you succeed in protecting yourselves it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

You may have the edge in defending your behaviour if you use factory ammo. But, what if the question becomes "Why did you use hollowpoints", or "Why did you use a .44 Magnum hunting cartridge?"

I swear the internet has done more to create confusion over non events than it has ever been used to help people...
Those of you unwilling to use a hollowpoint, or a handloaded round for self defense are fine, don't do it if it bothers you....
However, just cause some Mike Nifong got on a defendant or two over the rounds they used doesn't mean that handloaded ammo should be discarded for self defense use.....

I have seen a LOT of self defense shootings, also self defense knifings, baseball battings, chokings, kickings, and any number of things used as a weapon, including, but not limited too, a heavy aluminum cooking pot that was used to beat an abusive husband to death....that dude had bruises on the bottom of his FEET when his wife got through with him......

It IS NOT THE TOOL YOU USE....it is whether or not you were justified in using force, including deadly force, to begin with....
If you are justified, then it doesn't matter if you use a pot of boiling oil.....or some handloads you stoked up for your Daddy's 1917 revolver...if you are right, you are right....if you are using deadly force to merely protect property, then there isn't much doubt you are gonna have to face a Judge....

I wish some so called famous gunwriters wouldn't sensationalize the tool that was used, and focus on the facts of the justification of the use of deadly force, so threads like this wouldn't take up so much bandwidth, but alas, here we are....

Hi Sheriff,

I largely agree with you - but I think that it's a mistake to think that anyone's sensationalizing anything. I really think that the advice is solid and given with the best possible intent.

When Mas offers his (free) advice (which is mighty nice of him - I don't offer free advice to nonclients/non-family members, myself), he's pointing toward a way to minimize potential problems. This is prudent and cautious advice - while it's true that usually a good shoot is a good shoot (and a miss or overpenetration is always a horror for the shooter), why inject another potentially hazardous variable? Is it a likely problem? Probably not. Is is a potential problem? As a former prosecutor, I can assure you that it is.

Any shooting is a potential problem. Prosecutor offices are often stocked with liberal (you'd be surprised) law school grads who don't generally know anything about guns and who are horrified at the idea of someone standing up on his two legs and protecting himself instead of being peaceably raped while waiting for the police to arrive. And a whole lot of cops out there aren't thrilled with the idea of what they term "civilians" using deadly force in any capacity. And you certainly know how some jurisdictions have anti-individual outlooks, both in the venire and the judiciary.

Now, I live in a pretty good jurisdiction and I personally use handloads for defensive purposes sometimes . . . but I know my way around a courtroom (as a former prosecutor who's been doing criminal defense work since the early '90s), and I'm reasonably confident that I understand how to notice when something starts to go awry there and how to rectify it. I know how to talk to cops, I know how to talk to judges, I know how to talk to prosecutors, I know how to talk to jurors, and I know which experts to hire (and you can bet your biffy that Mas Ayoob is at the top of my list ). And my cell phone directory is full of criminal defense attorneys who are friends and who owe me favors.

So, I feel okay about my handloads. But when my little brother (who's NOT a criminal defense lawyer, and who's in a different state where I'd not be able to defend him) started carrying a couple of years ago, I gave him Mas' advice and told him to carry factory ammo. I mean, why insert any variable that could in any way possibly cause him a hassle?

Sheriff, I'm sure that you know your way around a courtroom, and it sounds like you're in a reasonable jurisdiction. And I'm sure that a lot of people here can speak with erudition about how their particular load was worked up to work in their particular gun and designed to produce precisely the results that it does. And how they can document that they use more caution with every single defensive load that they make than any factory worker. And already know a good lawyer who can help them make sure that this gets conveyed appropriately to everyone who needs to understand it.

But that's sure not true of most folks. As I said, I don't give strangers legal advice for free. But, as generic advice to everyone everywhere, the idea of trying to minimize potential problems by avoiding conceivable potential pitfalls sure seems pretty solid - particularly since the cost of a box of factory defensive ammo is less than dinner and a movie with your wife.

Anyhow, I see it as just trying to help folks out, and not as trying to stir anything up. I'll tell you what - I was darned grateful for the advice in Mas' columns way back when I started carrying (I was in college - before law school) and I'm glad that he's still out there as a beacon to guide folks who are new to carry.

You gents have a wonderful Easter - God bless you all, and here's praying that this is never an issue for anyone here.

Erich, FWIW, nowhere did I write about an individual, or any specific writer....
You took that liberty to name an individual gun writer, and by doing so changed the entire premise of my post and made it into something it was never intended to be.....
Yes, some gun writers do sensationalize.....but to think I was speaking of someone in particular is incorrect.
Mas Ayoob and I have exchanged emails, and I have utmost respect for his work and opinions...even on issues we may not agree on..

Of course, you're correct and that you did not mention any names - just an assertion about

.

Mas is the only famous gunwriter of whom I'm aware having written on the subject of carrying handloads. He was also mentioned multiple times in this discussion by posters up-thread, and he's the guy who gets the most grief on the 'net on discussions about this.

I don't see where your tone here is justified - after all, I started my last post by mostly agreeing with you. Heck, look at the very first reply in this thread. That's me - answering the OP's question about cast bullets' usefulness and simply noting that the question of handloads has been done to death.

Yet, in your last post, you seem to be accusing me of somehow twisting your words. I don't get it. If you want to make sure that you don't offend Mas, then perhaps you might want to be more clear when you start throwing around language like that which I just quoted, in a thread where people have been discussing him. Don't blame me.

I hate to mention that Masaad Ayoob isn't a plural entity (so called famous gunwriters), so that makes it difficult to single him out of a group as the intended object of the comment. There are probably others that parrot the idea and they may or may not give credit to the originator.

OTOH, "sensationalize the tool" doesn't really fit the concept of handloads, but really seems to pertain more to the instrument used.

These observations are, from a former line of work, called exegesis, vs eisegesis.

Random thoughts on this subject.

Way back when I started my "job" [mid 1970's] we were allowed, and many of us did, carry reloads on duty.

As time went on carry ammo was standardized, at first several different loads per calibre were approved, then later only one choice for on duty, and maybe 2 choices for off duty weapons were approved.

In todays world, where many Police officials, DA's, the Press, and most prosective jury members are either anti gun or know nothing about guns, I would recommend you carry factory ammo, designed/marketed for Personal Protection. If you know what the local Cops, nearby big city Cops, State Police, or Feds carry in your area it is not a bad idea to carry the same ammo.

Or at least some ammo marketed as Personal Protection from a major manufacture...

First of all you are getting a product that has most likely been fairly well tested.

Second it removes one possible problem, that can be used against you.

On a side note, conversations such as this, remind me of an episode of an old TV show, "POLICE STORY".

Early in the show one fella gives his partner a couple of "reloaded" rounds, telling him they are HOT loads using RIFLE powder.

Later they get in a gunfight in a bank...

When the investigating team gets there including IAD [Internal Affairs], several of the citizens in the bank say that the Cops revolvers sounded like CANNONS.

So there is the side issue of them using HOT loads.

Once Upon a Time, when I carried a 1911, I was called in to the LT's office, after an "Inspection" because some of my bullets were "corroded"....

After a lecture on taking care of my "equipment" to save my life, and the life of my partners...

I showed the LT. and the 3 other SGT's my "green" bullets, in 2 of my 4 extra magazines, explaining that they were KTW factory ammo designed for penetrating "stuff" and the green was Teflon, coating the bullets, to protect the barrel of my pistol when fired....

[Such rounds were perfectly within Dept Regs. at the time.]

A simple search on the Internet can answer some questions as to who or whom, is the biggest proponent or opponent, of an issue.

Not that the information is always right but......it is out there.

When doing a search on Google for "self defense""handloads" the first article that comes up is from American Handgunner on BNET. Guess who the author is? Right Ayoob.

The next one that came up for me was interesting. It was by John Ross. He would allow us to post the entire article here but it would take up too much room. Here is an excerpt and the link to follow.
Using Handloads For Self Defence

Now, you will notice that the most notable writer he mentions is Ayoob. It's just a well known fact that he is the main proponent of the opposition of using handloads for self defense. To accuse Eric of pointing a finger at him is silly, friend. EVERYONE that has ever talked about this KNOWS who is the main gun writer that espouses it.

It has been hashed to death in this thread and many, many others that we all have been involved in, here and on other forums. To think that the subtle statement that "some so called famous gunwriters" would not be attributed to Ayoob is naive at best, ignorant at worst.

When this discussion comes up it inevitably turns into a discussion of the Bias case and Ayoob. I've traded "verbal" jabs with him on this forum over this subject several times. His knowledge of the courtroom is superb. He knows a lot about our "legal" system and in my opinion has made an impact on it by his testimony as an "expert" witness, and in this case, not for the better.

What we have is a "legal" system and not a "justice" system. But that is a discussion for another thread entirely.

The truth of the matter is that it depends on the area that you live in, the political ambitions of the prosecutor, the actual circumstances of the shooting and the reputaion of the shooter.

A man who lives in a very conservative county in which the prosecutor is at least neutral on the gun issue, and who has a good reputation for sanity, will fare better than someone with a very iffy reputation in a ctiy like New York, handloads or no handloads.