I hand load 38 special/ .357 mag. Most of my cast lead bullets come from a 140 grain SWC lee mold using wheel weights. Are there any thoughts on this load for defensive carry. I keep my 38 special loads at about 850-900 fps. I have never tried an expansion test on the bullet in any type of media. Just food for thought.

Sounds good to me. My main concern would be making sure it didn't overpenetrate, which I doubt it would at those velocities.

You're no doubt aware of all the threads and the various concerns about carrying handloads for defensive purposes. That said, I've got a .38 Special on right now, filled with handloads that I made up with Tennessee Valley Bullets hardcast 158-gr LSWCs.

A box of 38 special SD factory ammo costs $20. If you ever did have to shoot in self defense, how much would a long criminal trial cost, or a failed defense argument?

Really guy, except in a hard core emergency (like totally ammunition dryup or major breakdown of society) you don't want to use hand loads for defense. Most jury members are not shooters, most shooters are not hand loaders. It would not take much for a slick lawyer or warped DA to make you out as a psycho just itching to try out some of his home brew on some innocent person. Also, factory ammo has know, scientifically demonstrable powder patterns, if push comes to shove you can PROVE how far away you were when you shot. Your hand loads don't do that. Please see the comment Massad Ayoob has made else where along this line. He testifies in court at such things and has SEEN people hung out to dry on this issue. 25 years ago nobody would have cared, now they do. BAD IDEA.

I know and trust my hand loads,and know where they hit...

98% of what I shoot, .22LR & 9mm excepted, is my reloaded ammunition usually lead. Except around the woods here I carry factory ammunition and it is in the house defense guns, I shoot enough of it to know where it prints.
I am persuaded that there are enough negatives to using reloads for defense to avoid it.
If I ever have to shoot in self-defense I do not want to leave anything for the lawyers to quibble about.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Check with the Israelis. ;-)

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NRA Life Member

I would like to start shooting some lead in my Sigma. The barrel is,,, match grade. With a good slugging and some hand detail work. IMO should be displayed in a museum of modern industrial art. It's a clean tube!

I would be interested in some 9mm wad cutters if any body knows somebody that would let me try a few slugs. there is nothing like a well loaded lead round and they make a great splat!

As for reloaders and HD/SD... Thats BS,, and if you live in a area that screws you over concerning it. You are not doing your job as a citizen much less a American. Short of rat poison loads <<< which I like and build, Talons or stealth steel core cutters It's all pretty much BS!

You confront me or mine,,, suffer the wrath of evil!!!!!! By this hand,,, and it is not playing!

It takes a beating and keeps on ticking. And my wife loves to hold the beat up working mans mit. it will never fail her or our children and grandchildren.

It amuses me to read these threads which predict dire consequences if handloads are used for self defense. For self defense!

Before you pull the trigger, you had better be on very firm ground that you were justified in doing so. If that is the case, no argument over factory load versus handload is going to change that position. If you were justified, you were justified---period. The fact that a handload was in the gun is immaterial. What were you supposed to do, call a time out so you could swap ammo?

The problem is that you have to prove you WERE justified. If the case goes to trial the prosecution can try to show that you were a gun nut out looking for trouble, with handmade ammo in your gun because the stuff the store sells wasn't deadly enough for you.

I have yet to see where anyone has cited a specific instance where a prosecutor has used the "hand-loaded death-ray bullets" argument, and much less where it has been used successfully.

Sure, they could use it, but they could subpoena your computer to find if you have been visiting subversive, militant, gunfighter sites like the S&W forum.

Anyhow, my counter-argument would be that I wasn't using evil, factory manufactured expanding, exploding cop-killer bullets, I had my gun loaded with mild wadcutter ammo, just like the target shooters use.

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Georgia On My Mind

I prefer my reloads for potential SD loads I can not afford regular practice with factory loads. For the S&W 36 I like 3.4gr of Bullseye with a Speer 148gr BBWC and F-100 primers, or 4.2gr of W-231 with a 158gr cast LSWC again with F-100s
http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...1&d=1269662480
I'm running low on the Speer BBWCs does anyone know where to find them ?

Attached Images

guns 003.jpg (138.0 KB, 211 views)

You don't believe that do you?

A Co-worker of mine was road raged on with his baby girl in the car a while back. At a traffic light the rager and his adult son approached his car. He did have his window down against a red light in traffic. He has his CC and had a High Point 9mm under the seat. When the rager went to grab at him. He stabbed him one time. He did not wish to hurt his daughter ears with a shot. He was arrested and treated like a perp. by our wonderful cops and the DA. The Judge was the only person that had a brain. His case was dismissed this week. And he promptly filed a civy suite against the arresting cops/dept. The attacker and the worthless DA. He did nothing wrong! And this is in Oklahoma. He was well within his rights. Its a sad day when you have to spend money to make the law dogs do there job right. In a make my day state ran by democrats. I would have shot the perp even if i was concealed against the law. There is a clause in our law. You have the right to defend yourself that supersede the law when attacked. Figure that one out.

Folks in America need to stand up!!! And in a nut shell the NRA aint getting it done! Paying somebody to do your dirty work is a wussy's way out and only feeds the corrupt system. And yes I'm guilty of this as a NRA member now. it's not about right or wrong. When folks do not stand up. It's money.....

It seems pretty obvious there are a lot of people who are completely unaware of Texas law. We don't have to have a lot of justification for shooting someone and no one cares if it was a handload or a .50 BMG. If the shooting is justified, the grand jury will no bill it and the load is a non-issue.

everybody talks of not handloading for carry. Then they talk about "slick talking lawyers" but never post a case where someone was actually convicted because they defended themselves with handloads.If a case like that was out there it would constantly be brought up. The idea of concealed carry is to always be ready but not pull the gun unless you are ready to kill the object in front of the muzzle. I am going to stop now because this is not what this thread is about.

I would not choose a swc for defense work. Their advantages are they are accurate at bulleye ranges and cut clean holes in targets. On game that means they will break bone and go through leaving a hole the about the same size exiting letting the game blead out if you don't hit a vital organ. This can take hours. Not so good if you want your attacker to die as soon as you shoot them.

Factory self defense ammo is loaded with hollow points for a reason. They will work. Hollow point cause trauma and shock. When a bullet hits and expands to 1.5 times its diameter tumbles all around and stays together all in the first 10 inches it makes for a devistating hit. If you look at hunting ammo for stuff like deer and antilope it is made with hollow points or ballistic tips because it is the same idea. Solids are used for elephant and cape buffalo because they need to go through a foot of rock hard muscle and bone before they hit anything that can cause the animal to die. Same thing as solid lead swc on a human, a little hole in and a little hole out. It will die eventually. Probably after it gets done attacking you.

A swc would be great if you plan to be accurate enough in a life or death situation to shoot a moving target between the eyes. It will go right through shock the brain and stop the fight. In a high stress situation I doubt you will stay calm enough to do that.

If you decide to cast your own hollow points do a little testing on your ammo. Hard cast will break up and a small amount will go through an intended target. Soft will make a nice mushroom and cause the most shock. But test for pentration and expansion and find what works for you. You can make a ton of them, load them up, get confidence using them and know that if the time ever comes you can trust your ammo.

Most people can't afford to shoot defense ammo that cost $30.00 for 25 rounds to pratice with and carry. So they find a load that works and then practice with white box knowing that 5 years ago their factory defense ammo worked. You will be ahead of the game practicing with a handload you shoot and carry all the time. Practice and confidence are crutial when the worst happens.

I have never had to shoot another person but I know from hunting and shooting wild animals that shot placement is key. Shoot something in the head and it will die instantly. It is tough to do sometimes. Shoot something in the vitals and it will die and not mess up your trophy head. It may run, it may fall instantly, you don't know till it happens, but in the end it will die. But if you put a lousy shot into the stomach,legs(or arms in a human), shoulder, hip, or butt and you have made a lot more work for yourself.

Attackers don't know a bad shot was suppose to stop them.

Find a good load and practice.

Man five posts from when I started to when I finished that long winded thing

I have no problum with lead for carry, i get to shoot alot my of my handloads than i do with factory loads and as stated earlyer i know how they shoot in my gun, i trust them and thats worth alot to me!

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

There are some states full of wussy's. Many do not roll like Tx, Ok, Ar, Miss, La, and others.

You try to steal my car from my driveway I will shoot you if I get the chance! I got a ticket for discharging a firearm in city limits. And it was dropped soon as the Judge saw the case. Not to mention it was on police records that the car had been a target for theft from the day I bought it and brought it home. Stupid cops did not even lift finger prints off the windows that were fresh and bust the perp. NO they told me you have insurance. I have never had a cop do there job when something was stolen or mine was threaten. But you threaten them and all heck breaks loose.

I once stuck a DBL 12ga through a dudes mouth on my neighbors front porch. Was known to be a local thug. Jacked his grill up. Lifted him off his feet and threw him in the front yard busting out his pallet with the barrels. He had a wheel gun in his jacket pocket but would not take his hands out of his pocket. Little did he know I had the SG around the corner of a wall behind me. He took his hands out when he ate a 12ga. Cops treated me like a crimm. Knowing he was a known felon. That issue died the next day when they found his trench coat with a zip 38 in the pocket.

I'm happy to say the new Police chief and Sheriff in the last few years have pulled there heads out and the DA has wised up in my county.

Come on down to the heart land and practice you perp trade. Things are changing real fast.

Don't believe it when you're told a head shot will bring anything down. I shot a possum the other day right in the head and had to finish it off with a shot through the boiler room.

The same goes for HPs at normal handgun velocities. I shot a coon out of a tree with a 9mm carbine using 124 gr JHPs and had to finish it off with another shot. Everything I've shot with 9mms has failed to expand, even Golden Sabers.

Now a .357 with 125 JHPs at 1500-1600 fps is another story.

No one ever wants to blame those easy to load hard as a rock jacketed pistol bullets. Just increase the speed and they will expand is the common stated fact. Nobody wants to believe that a soft cast hollow point might be a good idea. Common defense rounds are made to police standards. Shooting though doors, glass,cars,and still being able to penitrate winter clothing.

I personally am not looking for a fight or a shootout. Chances are if I have to shoot though something to hit my attacker they are fortified and I could probably just run away . The statistics say that a fortified attacker is well armed. That means they will not pursue me if I run away and I let the SWAT or Whoever fight them. Call me a coward if you want. But I am a well armed coward that will live to fight another day. I am serious when I say I will only draw my gun if I have to eliminate a threat.

My family plan is set up so that everyone knows that we aren't heros. Call the the law and hunker down and play defense. They can steal what they want but if they come through the wrong door lead poisoning will be fast and instant.

I think hard cast wc's or swc's are as good as it gets for sd at short
barreled handgun velocities. I have more confidence in my own loads
than I do in most factory ammo. Being crucified in court for using a cast
lead bullet load rather than some high performance hollow point factory
load for defense seems pretty unlikely to me.

I knew I had read a case about using reloads for self defense situations. Masaad Ayoob wrote up several incidents about this kind of thing and the various court rulings that came from them. I will post the link to one of them, but I will also include a spoiler alert that they (the jurors) weren't very positive towards reloaders. Link:
Handloads for self-defense: the Daniel Bias case | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET
Sorry, Found some more:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n11840291/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...=rbxcra.2.a.11

I like the way you think, brother! (At least on this issue!)

The sisification of America is intentional. It has been a plan since women left the home and gave up on being what they were designed to be, mom. Then the men stopped being manly, started wearing earrings and carrying "man bags". I think Rush calls it the "chickification" of America, call it what you want. Now we are afraid to stand up for our rights and that is wrong, period.

There has never been ONE case where handloads, no matter how hot or woosified they were, was the issue in a SELF DEFENSE shooting, not one. It has no merit in the case of a justified shooting. There have to be circumstances in the shooting that would make them look deeper. A history with the KKK or whatever. Something that points to a different motive than self defense.

Handloads have only been a factor in one case. A supposed suicide that was proven to be murder. GSR was used to prove that the husband shot the wife because it was impossible for her to do so without leaving GSR on her head. So, if you plan to use your handloads to shoot your wife and have it look like suicide, you could be in trouble. Daniel Bias shot his wife with his handloads then claimed she committed suicide. Read the whole story of what took place that night. It had nothing to do with reloads. She pointed the gun at him earlier, they had a cuss fight, they were a pair of losers and had an argument that got out of hand. THAT is what "tainted" the jury against handloaders. Urban myths, ya gotta love them! But now that an "expert" like Ayoob says its so, its so. Well, not in my book.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it! Good job defending it Blast!

The biggest problem is just cleaning the lead out of the barrel after practice. I'd vote jhp factory when it absolutely has to go bang.

When I first got my CCW several months ago, "self defense" factory ammo in .40 was non-existent. I carried 14 rounds of 180gr FMJ in my Sigma. I felt totally protected. Right now I carry 155gr HP and I feel pretty much the same, but wonder if I had to take a shot through auto glass if it would be effective. Since I don't reload, I only use factory stuff but my point in self defense is that a high speed large caliber bullet will do damage to what it hits, whether it is a hollow point or not. Or did I miss something about physics [impact=velocity times mass].

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SW40VE Sigma
Ruger SR9c

For SD, make sure your cast bullet has a large metplat. That puts the punch into it.

My reloads are used in my SD firearms.

I like my homebrew best, I practice with it, so I rely on it and I don't worry about getting into trouble for using it. Truth be told, I hope I never have to use it and if I do, the type of round will be the least of my worries.

Previous posters seem to have forgotten one highly touted lead bullet load, even made by Federal, Remington, Winchester, BuffaloBore, etc. That is the famous "FBI load" developed for use in 38 special J-frames with nominal 2,0 inch barrels. Said to be best available load for such guns.

Even been at least one thread here about handloading to dupicate this load.

I replicated this load for my J-frame by using some soft Pb alloy SWCHP gas checked 158 grain bullets from Rimrock Bullets, reported to be source of bullets BuffaloBore uses for its "FBI load". Also used Speer soft Pb-alloy 158 grain SWHP bullets. Results in quite small grouping load in my 38 SPLs and 357 Mags -- NO LEADING -- with either bullet at velocities from 950 to 1200 fps!! Anyone getting any more that minor leading has a very poor load, for one or more of very well known reasons.

I now carry concealed often because of one too many very distrubing events. My replication of FBI load is in my M60 J-frame. I expect that gun will be drawn only as last resort.

Niklas

momentum = mass x velocity

Neither momentum nor kinetic energy is a reliable predictor of shooting results, as neither takes caliber or bullet shape into account.

Good points made by all. I am leaning towards factory ammo more and more to avoid unnecessary "legal entanglements".

The Lee 140 gr. mould wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't have a problem if I were carrying your loads using it.

My main criteria for self defense ammo is to not choose something that is so powerful you have to slow down your rate of fire to shoot it effectively.

Edited to add:
I could have saved myself the trouble of posting if I knew you were going to fall for Chicken Littles' logic.

At least no one linked back to the previous multipaged threads on the "legal" issues of using handloads for self defense.

[bowing] Thanks for the correction to my physics formula. You rock!!

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SW40VE Sigma
Ruger SR9c

I don't understand what makes people think that if they are involved in
a justified use of a gun in self defense they will end up in court under
attack from some overzealous prosecutor. How can anyone prove that
your economical lead bullet target or plinking type handloads were in
your gun because factory hollowpoints weren't deadly enough for you?
Just what does anyone think they could actually be charged with on the
basis of their plinking loads vrs factory loads in a sd shooting that is
ruled justified?

How many of you want to try this out in a court of law and be the test case for using handloads in an self defense shooting? I don't, that's why I stick to hornady critical defense and speer gold dot in all of my defense handguns. Call me a sissy, wuss, or whatever you want, but I don't want to find out if my handloads were up to spec that afternoon at the bench, or if the prosecuting attorney has a vendetta against gun owners etc.

IF for some reason I end up having to use a firearm to defend myself at home it will be with handloads. I guess if it becomes an issue my law dog will have to explain that never in my wildest dreams did I expect to have to use one of my target pistols for self defense.

Having sat on a jury a few times and watched how lawyers can twist things I think there is an equal possibility that the use of aggressive hollowpoints could be used against a person in a SD shooting. After all, you specifically purchased and practiced with ammo designed to do the most damage as possible. Ammo that for almost a century has been determined to be too inhumane for use by the military. You must have been looking for a chance to use it, right?

I think the prosecutor could make an argument either way if they wanted to. Now my CCW pistol has factory ammo in it mainly because I only shoot a box a month through it and spend my time reloading other calibers.

It wasn't that long ago that everyone, police included, that used a firearm HAD to use handloads. OH, they didn't put them in a cartridge, they pushed them down a muzzle with a rod. In fact, most of the time they had to make the projectile themselves too! As another matter of fact, that was the type of ammunition that the founding fathers defended our country with, against the British, twice! I guess I'd be a test case if need be and help others out 'cause it's a non-issue, then all you other folks that are too scared could benefit too. Of course you wouldn't because ................................

No one has to fire a shot to get us to give up our rights, we do it willingly by just being threatened by a lawsuit.

Dang a multi-page thread about whether it's OK to carry handloads for SD. First time that's ever happened.

IMO you're more likely to get struck by lightning than to ever be involved in a justified self defense shooting where any litigation is involved. So the next time it starts thundering... go hide under the bed. Sheesh!

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Andy

For the sake of all the folks on this forum that don't fall for every idiotic rumor that flows down the internet sewer...

There are jurisdictions that do specify in their Concealed Carry laws that certain ammunition must be used. Make sure you are aware of any regulations before you decide what you carry in your area.

I have been struck by lightening 3 times. Where does that leave me?

Don't use handloads, your luck is too bad!

'Course, I had an uncle once that claimed to have been struck by lightning more than once, as I remember, I don't think he died in that institution, he came home for a week just before!

A large distance from me, I'd hope

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Cloudpeak

and when you shoot someone in defense of property (I.E.your car) you will go away...to prison...better brush up on current laws..

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

I suspect few minds have been changed here.
I am not certain what anyone’s willingness to defend him/herself has to do with what ammunition he/she chooses to use.
I have never been in criminal court either prosecuted for shooting someone or in civil court being sued because I did. If necessary I will face the consequences when it happens.
I don’t disable safety devices and do use commercial ammunition just to make it harder for the lawyers to find something that I have done wrong.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Texas Tom, I see nothing wrong with using your reloads as self defense ammo. I will now offer some free advice on how and what to use.

I would get a SWC mold and some good lube that will not kill you powder. Then I would order some lead tin mix from Roto metals to make my bullets from. I think 20 to 1 mix will give your .38 or low .357 good service.

Molds:
I would buy a NOE mold in their RG-2 or RG4 model and cast one of the following bullets

180gr WFN, fits in even short S&W cylinders or a Marlin lever action


A classic 358429 Keith SWC in hpt


Lube would be White label BAC
White Label Lube - Cast Boolits

The two molds mentioned are available
The 180gr WFN is available now
NOE-Moulds on hand for sale #2- - Cast Boolits

The 358429 is available as a groupbuy delivered some time this summer
NOE Small Group Buy (SGB) 358429 168Gr. Keith - Cast Boolits

From my own experience in casting plus what I have learned at castbboolits you should be able to taylor a specific lead hpt to suit your needs. Expansion at low velocity and penetration is why I sugested slightly heavier bullets than you stated originaly.

Hope the info helps.

PS: I figure you are a man grown and quite capable of deciding what ammo to use in violent defense of yourself, others and property. Hope you never have to.

It all depends on what jurisdiction you are in, even within a state. I love rural South Georgia. Juries, and even prosecutors here tend to have much higher regard for private property rights than in some more liberal parts of the country.

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Georgia On My Mind

This pic has been posted before. The one on the right was a hollow pointed 358156 boolit @ 1250fps. The other two are factory loaded 158grainers (I think the far left is fioccii 148gr sjhp) at about the same speed. Shot into rubber mulch.



At snubby velocities expansion might be iffy.

Those expanded but still are not putting a hole in the target as big as a 45/44/40 that fails to expand.

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Shoot fast & live long
Warren

Here's the infamous Joe Horn case that happened in Pasadena, Texas, just outside of Houston.

Attorney: Pasadena man didn't intend to kill (w/911 call) | Pasadena/Baytown news | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

"Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings"

Joe Horn cleared by grand jury in Pasadena shootings | Chronicle | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

I don't know where kennyb lives, but it sure isn't in Texas!

Amazingly, I don't think they even asked if he was using factory loads.

Roundgunner, no argument from me about your logic.

Long after the .45 or .44 was introduced, the .357, in 1935, was the most powerful handgun in the world. The previous record holder for power was the .44 Colt Walker. So, it seems the much touted cartridge .44s and .45s have always been playing second fiddle.

Hollow point SWC or roundnose is old techology that is well understood. Correct hollow point with the correct lead mix will expand at the stated velocity. Penetration becomes an issue, which is why I pointed out some heavier bullets. Lead tin mix with no antimony will expand and hold together.

This same technology will work for 41-44-45 with equal ease. You just have to match alloy and hollowpoint to velocity.